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  1. #1

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    It's the first time I see this.

    First few measures of I Wonder Where My Baby Is Tonight, key of G:

    G | B7 | C | E7 |
    Am...

    I realise there's good voice leading from tone F# to G and D# to E, but I'm wondering if you could offer any further comments.

    Does B7 actually establish C as temporary tonal centre at all? Or is it just a chord that leads well to another chord, which, being consonant and diatonic, gets established as tonal centre by itself? (like when you move straight from I to IV, measure 25 of All of Me for example).

    A movement I've seen before is bVI7 to I, measure 3 of I'm Beginning to See the Light. The voice leading is similar (land on the third or fifth from a half step below) and the target is a major tonal centre.

    Thanks

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    It's the first time I see this.

    First few measures of I Wonder Where My Baby Is Tonight, key of G:

    G | B7 | C | E7 |
    Am...

    I realise there's good voice leading from tone F# to G and D# to E, but I'm wondering if you could offer any further comments.

    Does B7 actually establish C as temporary tonal centre at all? Or is it just a chord that leads well to another chord, which, being consonant and diatonic, gets established as tonal centre by itself? (like when you move straight from I to IV, measure 25 of All of Me for example).

    A movement I've seen before is bVI7 to I, measure 3 of I'm Beginning to See the Light. The voice leading is similar (land on the third or fifth from a half step below) and the target is a major tonal centre.

    Thanks
    A more common resolution for I-III#3 is to the vi or relative minor with the III often prefaced by the vii. So, G, B7, Em or G, F#m7(b5), B7, Em. Confirmation (Charlie Parker), Yesterday (The Beatles) and New York State of Mind (Billy Joel) are three examples that spring immediately to mind. However, many songs from the '20s and '30s feature I-III-IV progressions.

    Looking at two early standard tunes that feature the I-III-IV, Someday My Prince Will Come (Frank Churchill) and Ain't Misbehavin' (Fats Waller), you'll notice in both instances that the 5th degree of the III chord is sharpened and that same note - tonic of the I chord - defines the melody. This leads us to hear the III as having a dominant function, e.g. G7#5 rather than B7#5 bringing an ambiguous augmented/whole tone quality to the change. An indication of their interchangeable nature is that in the original piano recording of Ain't Misbehavin', Fats plays C, E7#5, F6 in bars 3-4 but in iReal, it appears as C, C7/E, F6.
    Last edited by PMB; 04-18-2021 at 09:32 PM.

  4. #3

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    One of my favourite harmonic moves in American music.

    It is interesting that sometimes it can be realted to IIIdom7 - vi (as IV and vi may function the same way)
    IIIdom7 - vi examples of this kind are 'Georgia on my mind', 'Louisianna 1927', 'All of me', 'I wish I knew how it would feel to be free' and plenty of music that refers to anthem-like gospel/soul vibe.

    IIIdom7 - IV is a turnaround that sounds to me as an avoidance of resolution to vi.
    For example if it goes all the way like (in C major) C - E7 - Am7... then all the movement is very inert in character, it has strong tension and feels to me like a descension

    Tom Wait's San Diego Seranade is very interesting example where the tonic seems to avoid all the time because of this
    the original is in Gb major, to simpplify it I will put is in G major

    B7 - Em7 - G7 (opional G7/D) - C - Am7/(bass move D-E-F#) - G - B7 - Em7 .... etc.

    When you listen to it you can easily hear that the tune seems like cannot stay on G (tonic chord) - it always wants to dive somewhere ... especiall when it is G - B7-Em7... to Em7
    though we still hear G as tonic... this inertion that is set from teh very beginning by opening B7 chord


    Playing C - E7 - F is the oppostite feeling of a forceful UPLIFT as if you apply your will to move the harmony that way... that brings a respective character and mood to music...
    C - E7 - F - C can be quite typical turnaround for gospel soul

    From the standards I can also mention I'll be seeing you that has very beautiful move where IV can be also sunstituted by (variated with) ii.


    By the way one of the most interesting examples is Imagine by Lennon, refrain

    F - G - C - E7 and again F...

    It seems like harmony is all shifted ...

    And also E7 begins to sound like a sub for C7 (dom to F) - what partly PMB talks about above.

    The whole harmony of Imagine actually is not stable, it is like always shifting from I to IV


    I realise there's good voice leading from tone F# to G and D# to E
    Not that good actually... half-step parallel 6th or 3rd. Nothing wrong with that in jazz context but I would not call it a good voice-leading that could make a basis for essential harmonic choice... it could be just a chromatic approach chord then

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    A more common resolution for I-III#3 is to the vi or relative minor with the III often prefaced by the vii. So, G, B7, Em or G, F#m7(b5), B7, Em. Confirmation (Charlie Parker), Yesterday (The Beatles) and New York State of Mind (Billy Joel) are three examples that spring immediately to mind. However, many songs from the '20s and '30s feature I-III-IV progressions.

    Looking at two early standard tunes that feature the I-III-IV, Someday My Prince Will Come (Frank Churchill) and Ain't Misbehavin' (Fats Waller), you'll notice in both instances that the 5th degree of the III chord is sharpened and that same note - tonic of the I chord - defines the melody. This leads us to hear the III as having a dominant function, e.g. G7#5 rather than B7#5 bringing an ambiguous augmented/whole tone quality to the change. An indication of their interchangeable nature is that in the original piano recording of Ain't Misbehavin', Fats plays C, E7#5, F6 in bars 3-4 but in iReal, it appears as C, C7/E, F6.
    spot on as usual. there's also sunnyside of the street and i remember clifford. and there is a C7#5 in stablemates where i like to play Ab7+ material. a lot of gospel sound in that III7, too.

  6. #5

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    Awesome insight, guys, I really appreciate all this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Not that good actually... half-step parallel 6th or 3rd. Nothing wrong with that in jazz context but I would not call it a good voice-leading that could make a basis for essential harmonic choice... it could be just a chromatic approach chord then
    I've seen this for targeting I "indirectly" before... Switching back to "key of C names", I've mentioned Ab7 to C in I'm beginning to see the light. I've also seen F - F#dim7 - C.

    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    spot on as usual. there's also sunnyside of the street and i remember clifford. and there is a C7#5 in stablemates where i like to play Ab7+ material. a lot of gospel sound in that III7, too.
    Oh, Sunny Side of the Street is one I've played before. Interesting how I've been totally overlooking this particular change for the very reason that it doesn't feature any voice leading down by a half step... which means you can get away with it if you just go:

    C | E7 | % | % |
    Am...

    (I'm not talking about comping here, just about solo phrasing.)

    (Allegedly, measure 5 can be C or Am in this tune.)

  7. #6

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    You can see this progression as a relative minor mode interrupted cadence (V-vi) or a substitute for I7#5 (augmented symmetry), probably the latter is more useful. Coming up from semitone below the target chord is a super fun move.

  8. #7

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    I was going to mention this is a bit of a Fats move, but someone seems to have done this already.

  9. #8

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    I've seen this for targeting I "indirectly" before... Switching back to "key of C names", I've mentioned Ab7 to C in I'm beginning to see the light. I've also seen F - F#dim7 - C.
    I see

    F#dim is fundamentally C.
    Not that I mean Lydian C in particular (though it is ine of the derivation of the same idea)
    This is to me some general triton relationship within an octave, I hear it even within classical music in some sense.

    4x453x
    to
    3x243x

    Is lovely G7 to Cmaj7 to my ear (if it is prepared of course)

    As for I'm beginning to see the light

    You wrote

    A movement I've seen before is bVI7 to I, measure 3 of I'm Beginning to See the Light. The voice leading is similar (land on the third or fifth from a half step below) and the target is a major tonal centre.
    You mean 4th bar, right?
    I would include leading to the 6th of the tonic chord on that context (Eb to E nat) and would either lead Db (b7) to D nat (5th) or B nat as you describe it.

    Bu in I'm beginning to see the light I hear this turnaround in different way... though you can lead voices smoothly in context of the song these two chords are separated..
    The move to Eb7 sounds like deviation from the key and return to G sounds quite abrupt to me.

    Actually I think in this case it is more about 'bouncing' from natural major to blues... and this caused the harmonic move.

  10. #9

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    I've been reading all this more carefully, there's so much useful information in your comments, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    You mean 4th bar, right?
    Yes, sorry, 4th bar not 3rd.

    I can now relate some of your comments to the way I actually hear this, so I'm really happy. And also I have useful ways to look at it from a formal perspective, which helps me memorise...

  11. #10

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    I'm not sure that this equivalence through the altered fifth or aug symmetry is something I wanted to come across for the first time or discover just yet

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    I've been reading all this more carefully, there's so much useful information in your comments, thanks.



    Yes, sorry, 4th bar not 3rd.

    I can now relate some of your comments to the way I actually hear this, so I'm really happy. And also I have useful ways to look at it from a formal perspective, which helps me memorise...
    Thank you for your nice comment!

    I actually really love this forum - this is the place where I always learn.
    I also enjoy the open conversation... there are no final solutions in music, alwasy something new to doscover.

  13. #12

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    You guys have effectively mentored me over years of joyful learning. It's only natural that I acknowledge the tremendous value this has.

    The forum can't replace practice, but it does add to it as it helps understand things. My primary sources for this sort knowledge, both priceless, are this place and the Jazzadvice articles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Thank you for your nice comment!

    I actually really love this forum - this is the place where I always learn.
    I also enjoy the open conversation... there are no final solutions in music, alwasy something new to doscover.
    I think most people here realise music is a form of art and, as such, it can't be taught the way you would teach science or other forms of factual knowledge.

    Also people here will offer their views knowing that most often you will be able to grasp only part of them. The part you don't quite get yet is useful too, as it plants a seed anyway.

    People here have a deep understanding of what "learning process" means and how it works. I really like it here with regards to that.