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  1. #1

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    How would you label the third chord? I see at least three possibilities: Ab(add9)/E, Bbsus7/E, or EMaj7b5b13.
    I don't recall ever seeing the third option, but if you know of an instance feel free to point one out.
    I think the movement from the Ab triad directly to the G triad in the next bar makes it sound most like the first option. Or the third, if we hear the Ab triad as an upper structure.

    How would you label this chord?-untitled-jpg

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I'd like more info...its bar 24...are we transitioning into a new section (I see the time sig change)?

    I'd want to know more context...is it a point of resolution? Are we in C or just no key sig?

  4. #3

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    A flat mu major first inversion over E

    How would you label this chord?-mu-jpg

  5. #4

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    Cm7b13/E

    Eb6sus4/E

    C+7#9/E

    C7b13#9/E

    Bb11sus2/E

    EM7b13#11

  6. #5

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    Playing the sequence I hear an Ab chord. So Ab add9 over E

    Though the E in the bass doesn't make much sense to me as well as the C# in the last chord, further context would be necessary...

  7. #6

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    Context context context.

    what ever happens before and after dictates the answer.

  8. #7

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    Does context matter in non-functional?

    (I don't know much about non-functional)

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Does context matter in non-functional?

    (I don't know much about non-functional)
    The term "non functional" is a huge garbage bin of concepts that ostensibly defy traditional western analysis. It can be Debussey-esque, driven by an ever changing shifting textural shift, or it can be like Paart, driven by an expression of seemingly random episodes against a harmonic chordal sound, or it can be a sound art, like a car crash driven by a drunk teenager. The first two have their own idea of function. The third will mostly not function in a normal way afterwords.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    Context context context.

    what ever happens before and after dictates the answer.
    And whatever vexes the listener dictates the questions that follow.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    The term "non functional" is a huge garbage bin of concepts that ostensibly defy traditional western analysis. It can be Debussey-esque, driven by an ever changing shifting textural shift, or it can be like Paart, driven by an expression of seemingly random episodes against a harmonic chordal sound, or it can be a sound art, like a car crash driven by a drunk teenager. The first two have their own idea of function. The third will mostly not function in a normal way afterwords.
    Fair enough. So would you characterize the passage in question as functional or non, how would you label the “chord”, and is such labeling constrained/influenced by its predecessor(s) and successor?

  12. #11

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    What's in a name? That which we call a chord
    By any other label would sound as fingered.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Fair enough. So would you characterize the passage in question as functional or non, how would you label the “chord”, and is such labeling constrained/influenced by its predecessor(s) and successor?

    It's a really tough one, because the chords given may be part of something and appear to be transitional passage, but is it going to a new section in 3/4 or is that a brief passage that returns to an exact repeat...of what? Those preceeding diminished chords? Is their ambiguity in a function as a symmetrical chord where any tonality is purposely erased, or are they part of a dominant chord whose tonality was established just before this passage?
    The truth is, when you go to a writer and say "I have a piece of a page I found of a manuscript I think is my uncles's book and it says 'in the light', what is he talking about by the word 'the' ?"
    Well maybe it's saying in the light of what we've been saying...
    Or talking about the battle of the devil and God and it's THE light...
    Or a title of a love song where the singer has come out into the sunlight after living underground... or a metaphor for reality...
    Or it may be something he wrote as a sketch for something because he liked the way the words sounded (non functional)

    But you see, that in a transitional passage and without a follow up, it's really hard to tell the role of that word. When it comes to sound, it's subject to an even broader question: "Who's playing it and do they care?"

    The OP doesn't give any hints so it's just sounds. A single cell of a movie found on the cutting room floor.
    How would I label it?
    If I was at a jam, I'd give it to the piano player and say "I think this is yours. It's written on a grand staff obviously."
    If I was a jazz musician, I'd just play it as written and then get the free drink.
    If I was a studio musician, I'd play it as written and collect the pay check.
    If I was a classical musician, I'd play it as written and ask "Where's the next page?"
    If I was a folk musician, I'd say "G, C or D chord for this bit?"


  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    What's in a name? That which we call a chord
    By any other label would sound as fingered.
    I LIKE your attitude. End of the 4 bar composition, stand up and bow. (Remember that's NOT to be played as a 4 beat measure with a quarter rest at the double bar line...VERY important)

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    A flat mu major first inversion over E

    How would you label this chord?-mu-jpg
    So just to be clear, that's an Ab Mu 6 chord over E? Moo chord enharmonic? Does that make this an enharmonic cowboy chord?

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note View Post
    It's a really tough one, because the chords given may be part of something and appear to be transitional passage, but is it going to a new section in 3/4 or is that a brief passage that returns to an exact repeat...of what? Those preceeding diminished chords? Is their ambiguity in a function as a symmetrical chord where any tonality is purposely erased, or are they part of a dominant chord whose tonality was established just before this passage?
    The truth is, when you go to a writer and say "I have a piece of a page I found of a manuscript I think is my uncles's book and it says 'in the light', what is he talking about by the word 'the' ?"
    Well maybe it's saying in the light of what we've been saying...
    Or talking about the battle of the devil and God and it's THE light...
    Or a title of a love song where the singer has come out into the sunlight after living underground... or a metaphor for reality...
    Or it may be something he wrote as a sketch for something because he liked the way the words sounded (non functional)

    But you see, that in a transitional passage and without a follow up, it's really hard to tell the role of that word. When it comes to sound, it's subject to an even broader question: "Who's playing it and do they care?"

    The OP doesn't give any hints so it's just sounds. A single cell of a movie found on the cutting room floor.
    How would I label it?
    If I was at a jam, I'd give it to the piano player and say "I think this is yours. It's written on a grand staff obviously."
    If I was a jazz musician, I'd just play it as written and then get the free drink.
    If I was a studio musician, I'd play it as written and collect the pay check.
    If I was a classical musician, I'd play it as written and ask "Where's the next page?"
    If I was a folk musician, I'd say "G, C or D chord for this bit?"

    I agree, would be helpful to see more (if there is more).

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note View Post
    So just to be clear, that's an Ab Mu 6 chord over E? Moo chord enharmonic? Does that make this an enharmonic cowboy chord?
    Mu means 1 2 3 5
    The superscript 6 is the figured bass notation for 1st inversion
    (since the mu is not strictly triadic, the 1st inversion is built from the 2, Bb)

    I think my label conveys more info clearly in fewer marks than the longer ones

  18. #17

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    < 0 1 4 6 8 >

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV View Post
    < 0 1 4 6 8 >
    I don't know what that is meant to indicate.
    Fingering on the banjo?
    On guitar it could be [0 1 1 1 1 x]

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    I don't know what that is meant to indicate.
    Fingering on the banjo?
    On guitar it could be [0 1 1 1 1 x]
    its PC set notation, the numbers are intervals from 0-11 and the chord is reordered /inverted to fit in the smallest intervals (a minor 6th or 8 in the base-12 notation).

    [ 0 2 4 7 8 ] = Ab Bb C Eb E

    [ 0 1 4 6 8 ] = mirror inversion of above or the 'prime form'

  21. #20

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    How do you call a boomerang that doesn't come back ?

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note View Post

    How would I label it?
    If I was at a jam, I'd give it to the piano player and say "I think this is yours. It's written on a grand staff obviously."
    If I was a jazz musician, I'd just play it as written and then get the free drink.
    If I was a studio musician, I'd play it as written and collect the pay check.
    If I was a classical musician, I'd play it as written and ask "Where's the next page?"
    If I was a folk musician, I'd say "G, C or D chord for this bit?"

    Oh man, this stuff is excellent.
    I hope it's "open source".

    I'd like to add:
    If I were a producer, I'd say, "who cares what it is...lets do a whole album around it and maybe it'll set the industry on it's head...

    ..ya know like Giant Steps!"

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV View Post
    its PC set notation, the numbers are intervals from 0-11 and the chord is reordered /inverted to fit in the smallest intervals (a minor 6th or 8 in the base-12 notation).

    [ 0 2 4 7 8 ] = Ab Bb C Eb E

    [ 0 1 4 6 8 ] = mirror inversion of above or the 'prime form'
    Feels a little like kaleidoscope tab...

    How did you decide which is the root from which you assign the chromatic interval numbers?
    (Is that after the reordering/inversion? Or is there no root assignment?)
    (By smallest intervals, you mean the arrangement that yields the smallest interval from the first to last pitch class?)

    How do you distinguish the extensions octave above the chord tones octave using base-12?
    (Looks like they get lost when reordered/inverted.)

    It looks like decoding the set notation allows for multiple chords, so multiple chords result in the same set notation.
    (Is there no way to preserve when coding or reconstruct when decoding the original voicing - root, inversion, non-root bottom, extensions, etc.?)

  24. #23

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    The prime form orders in the smallest intervals first (minimized the sum)- so in set notation the prime form of a diatonic scale is <0 1 3 5 6 8 A> (A=10, we are doing base-12 arithmetic) i.e. the Locrian mode. It’s pretty reductive so yes it loses a lot of info. But this is how modernist classical composers like Carter look at music. It is handy for non-functional chords
    Last edited by BWV; 04-24-2021 at 08:47 PM.

  25. #24

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    Bb9sus/E

  26. #25
    Thanks for the input everyone - in this section the harmony is pretty fluid so I can't really relate that particular chord to the overall tonal scheme in a meaningful way; it's best defined by what comes just before and after.