Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 44
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    While I was playing arpeggios the other day, I started fiddling around with a Min7#5 chord. Note that this is NOT a Min6 chord because it includes both the b7 and the #5. The thing is, I have never seen this chord used in a jazz chart. The only example I could find of its use was in Peg by Steely Dan. Can anyone give me more insight into this chord? Where has it been used? How does it function harmonically? What scales can be used with? With respect to the last item, you can’t really use Dorian, and it doesn’t match up with either Melodic or Harmonic Minor. It doesn’t even match up with Aeolian because of the #5. What would even be the 6 in this case? Or should the chord be written as Min7/6, in which case it would line up with Aeolian. As you can see, I am perplexed by it.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    You never see a min#5 chord because it's just a major chord in second inversion.

    Amin#5 = A C F

    F A C = Fmaj

    Amin7#5 = A C F G

    F A C G = Fadd9

    .

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Min7#5 is taught at Berklee. I don't know if I've read/heard a discussion about it's origins or use.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWolf
    Or should the chord be written as Min7/6, in which case it would line up with Aeolian.
    It's logical that it could be Aeolian shorthand.

  6. #5

    User Info Menu


  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Bret Willmott covers it too. He makes a point that calling it Min7b13 is weak because it leaves the possibility of a half step between the 5th and b6th (b13th if you prefer). So b13th is not considered to be an "available tension" on that chord.

    Calling it Min7#5 guarantees that one won't use the perfect 5th on the chord.

    He also makes the point that is enharmonic with other chords. For example, Gmin7#5 is enharmonic with Cmin11 (rootless).

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Thanks for all the great insight, everyone.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    This chord is more commonly seen in Brazilian music. Toninho Horta, for example, uses it in Raining At Buriti Farm. Also, in Aqui Oh.

    Dori Caymmi uses it in Migration.

    Functionally, it doesn't quite fit in the usual scheme. Sometimes sounds a little like a tonic, but not quite.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    On guitar there are a couple of common ways to play the chord.

    Dm7#5

    x5856x D Bb C F

    10 x 10 10 11 x D C F Bb

    So, it's Bb C F over a D in the bass. Or, in other words, a stack of 4ths C F Bb over a D in the bass.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    I think of it as Dm7#5 contextually when used in a minor environment,
    otherwise it is Bbadd9/D.

    Ex.... D A C F > D Bb C F > D B C F > D Bb C F

    From a scale derivation perspective, it is generally aeolian and
    hence is really a b13 (b6) but m7#5 is a simpler name.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    F6 with a borrowed diminished note from FMaj6diminished scale.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    i like
    |A-7#5 Ab13|
    as the 3rd bar of
    ‘like someone in love’ in Eb

    5x556x
    4x456x

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    I don't suppose the James Bond theme qualifies, does it? Over an Em chord the top melody goes B - C - C# - C - B.

    Technically the C note turns it into a minor #5/b13... or maybe not :-)


  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Once again jazz musicians fail basic enharmony bah humbug

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Berklee has made some really strange choices historically that it now (and by extension musicians in general) seems stuck with. Having separate names of 13th chords and chord scales is one area I would really like them to clear up for OCD reasons. (I also could live to never again hear the grotesque maulings of classical modal terminology that have become standard.)

    I suppose that’s what you get for putting jazz musicians in change of things haha.

    But seriously, I have seen m7#5 and I always found it to be an annoying name even on the basis of Berklee-oid CST. What minor scale in common use has a #5. Complete doofuses!

    As rag says it may come from the James Bond Line Cliche which has a history going back a lot earlier in jazz (it crops up in the Eddie Lang/Carl Kress duet ‘picking my way’ for example.)

    Another example is the m6 chord of course, which is the minor triad plus a major sixth. So yeah.

    Probably big band charts are to blame and of course Berklee started as a big band school. And chord symbols grew up as a practical shorthand and it shouldn’t really matter .

    Anyway whatever you call it, it makes an excellent all purpose ‘modern chord.’

    Try it in ‘Upper Manhattan Medical Group’ instead of Dbo7 (Dbm7#5) Be the talk of the town. Amaze your friends

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    yea you need context for defs...

    A-7#5 is not really a chord, at least there is no real source or reference for construction. We all know the basic two common Line Cliches. Right...

    Either melodic lines from Root or 5th.

    I'll skip all the BS.... The notation usually implies a voicing of an implied chord...with a Line cliche. Line cliches are melodic line with step wise motion. In your example the notation would imply upward step wise motion.

    So it is a Two Part notation label.

    If your soloing... or arranging a big band or orchestral section of music... you would generally make musical choices of what note collections you want to pull your Line Cliche from.

    Part of playing Jazz involves using Chord Patterns... meaning you don't just play or pull from vanilla single harmonic references all the time.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Berklee has made some really strange choices historically that it now (and by extension musicians in general) seems stuck with. Having separate names of 13th chords and chord scales is one area I would really like them to clear up for OCD reasons. (I also could live to never again hear the grotesque maulings of classical modal terminology that have become standard.)

    I suppose that’s what you get for putting jazz musicians in change of things haha.

    But seriously, I have seen m7#5 and I always found it to be an annoying name even on the basis of Berklee-oid CST. What minor scale in common use has a #5. Complete doofuses!

    As rag says it may come from the James Bond Line Cliche which has a history going back a lot earlier in jazz (it crops up in the Eddie Lang/Carl Kress duet ‘picking my way’ for example.)

    Another example is the m6 chord of course, which is the minor triad plus a major sixth. So yeah.

    Probably big band charts are to blame and of course Berklee started as a big band school. And chord symbols grew up as a practical shorthand and it shouldn’t really matter .

    Anyway whatever you call it, it makes an excellent all purpose ‘modern chord.’

    Try it in ‘Upper Manhattan Medical Group’ instead of Dbo7 (Dbm7#5) Be the talk of the town. Amaze your friends
    Chord symbol shorthand has you that upset?

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Chord symbol shorthand has you that upset?
    it’s mostly joking







    mostly

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Anyway I’m on the figured bass now. None of that jazz rubbish.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    m7#5 exists outside of line cliches in Brazilian music. (It also exists inside line cliches in Brazilian music).

    You'll hear it in

    Desfile de Afoxe by Chico Pinheiro as a transitional chord. Also in his Mandarim, the second chord in the tune.

    E Preciso Perdoar between an Abm6 and a Gbo

    Ela E Carioca as a kind of subdominant function

    Inspiracao na Esquina. C#m7sus C#m7#5 Bb7b13

    Migration by Dori Caymmi where it's used more like a minor tonic, more or less.

    O Barquino, m9#5 used as a tonic in one arrangement.

    Prato Feito by Toninho Horta. Multiple places in the tune making different transitions.

    I think that this chord is a stack of fourths over a bass note. The stack of fourths makes the sound ambiguous, in the way, say, that xx2233 can function in a lot of different ways. The bass note makes it more specific, but still leaves a lot of ambiguity.

    In the tunes I just listed, it is more often a transitional chord, although I wouldn't call any of the usages a line cliche. But, sometimes it's more like a tonic and clearly not a line cliche.

    I think the way this chord is used in Brazil sometimes reflects something that isn't often heard in an American jazz standard, if ever. It's its own thing.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Yeah I always think of it as having a Brazilian tinge

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    As well as dim7, it occurs to me that this chord also functions very well as sub for altered dominant.

    In which case it becomes a 7b13#9 with no 3rd.

    And who would play a third in an altered dominant anyway? Leading tones lead to sinful thoughts. It’s in Leviticus.

    (srlsy leaving the 3rd out is a great way to make alt dominants sound open, modern, and somewhat Brazilian.

    Especially if you grab x 3 6 3 4 x

    So, minor tonic, inverted major tonic, diminished, dominant... there’s nothin it won’t do. Why bother learning other chords even?
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-04-2021 at 02:30 PM.

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    It seems to me that the name is quite handy for the guitar. If one knows their drop 2s and 3s they know exactly what to do.

    The artful usage of the chord is trickier than the playing of it.

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    The truth is out there, and so is David Duchovney... which is worse?


  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    DD of course