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  1. #1

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    Hi, nice people

    I'm having a look at the tune Exactly Like You in the key of C.

    At the end of section B, it supposedly has a fast (two chords per measure) turnaround that I haven't seen before:

    Em7 D#dim7 | Dm7 G7 ||

    I understand the D#dim7 leads well to Dm7, but given that the previous chord is Em7, the obvious choice would've been A7 or one of its common subs.

    My question also comes from not having seen Em7 being used other than as part of a II-V, i.e. followed by A7 (or a sub) before.

    Any comments on the logic this may have would be great

    Cheers,

    Alex
    Last edited by alez; 03-20-2021 at 03:52 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    Hi, nice people

    I'm having a look at the tune Exactly Like You in the key of C.

    At the end of section B, it supposedly has a fast (two chords per measure) turnaround that I haven't seen before:

    Em7 D#o7 | Dm7 G7 ||

    I understand the D#o7 leads well to Dm7, but given that the previous chord is Em7, the obvious choice would've been A7 or one of its common subs.

    My question also comes from not having seen Em7 being used other than as part of a II-V, i.e. followed by A7 (or a sub) before.

    Any comments on the logic this may have would be great

    Cheers,

    Alex
    Extremely common variant of a turnaround. Here’s some tunes to get you started

    Embraceable you
    I can’t give you anything but love
    body and soul
    night and day
    All the Things you are
    pennies from heaven
    out of nowhere
    How Insensative
    corcovado
    And depending on who you ask, the first few bars of Stella is one of these starting on biii

    C#o7 | % | Cm7 F7

    Original version of Darn That Dream

    Someone enthusiastic will be here in a minute to talk a load of theory but try this - write out the chords on a staff. What do you notice?

  4. #3

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    D#o is D# F# A C.

    G#7 is G# C D# F#.

    Three notes in common.

    Em7 is the ii of A7. Em7 is almost A7sus.

    So, you could think like this ... Em7 and A7 are interchangeable, more or less.

    D#o is almost an Ab7.

    Dm7 and G7 are interchangeable, more or less.

    So, this progression is kind of close to A7 Ab7 G7.

    Then, play x7578x to x6757x to x5356x to 3x345x

    You can see the descending movement of the individual voices. To my mind, that echoes the idea of A7 Ab7 G7.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Someone enthusiastic will be here in a minute to talk a load of theory but try this - write out the chords on a staff. What do you notice?
    Thanks for this. Really.

    Focusing specifically on the Em7-D#dim7 (the only change that puzzles me), I notice plenty of voice leading including contrary motion, BUT sort of "reversed" if you ask me... like D#dim7 leads well to the Em7, not the other way around. A7 on the other hand offers a most logic bridge between the Am7 and the Dm7.

    Another thing I notice is that I tend to overlook (ignore, really) the root of chords for voice leading but I may need to reconsider this in the specific case of dim7 chords. Finally, I notice I'm really clueless and confused with these things

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    You can see the descending movement of the individual voices. To my mind, that echoes the idea of A7 Ab7 G7.
    Wow, a far shot but OK, I get it Thanks.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    Thanks for this. Really.

    Focusing specifically on the Em7-D#dim7 (the only change that puzzles me), I notice plenty of voice leading including contrary motion, BUT sort of "reversed" if you ask me... like D#dim7 leads well to the Em7, not the other way around. A7 on the other hand offers a most logic bridge between the Am7 and the Dm7.

    Another thing I notice is that I tend to overlook (ignore, really) the root of chords for voice leading but I may need to reconsider this in the specific case of dim7 chords. Finally, I notice I'm really clueless and confused with these things
    It's more common to see dim 7 chords discussed as leading tone chords (e.g. C#o7 Dm7 D#o7 Em7) than what this is, which I call a bridging diminished (also called common tone diminished); what actually matters though is that you will see it a lot. So get used to it.

    OK, here's a thing

    C E G A = C6
    C Eb Gb A = Ebo7
    C D F A = F6 = Dm7

    (Em7 is a common sub for C/E)

    With Em7 Dm7 you see

    E G B D
    Eb Gb A C
    D F A C

    Right? So notice the notes that remain diatonic and the nature of the chromatic movement in terms of intervals etc.

    Then look at the shapes. Learn to express these chords as a solo line. Ask me about scales once you can do this without backing. Do not skip this step.

    Common sub

    Em7 Ebm7 Dm7 G7

    In the bop era people liked this so much they would change the melody (see Darn That Dream)

  7. #6

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    It's not D#o (which implies going upward), it's Ebo (going downward) connecting Em and Dm. And it sounds nicer than A7 :-)

    Where did you get D# from? Who wrote that?

  8. #7

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    My simplistic view is:
    Considering the 1st 8 for example which is C6 D7 G7 C6. This is a common sequence also used in Dark Town Strutters Ball amongst others.

    One could modify it very slightly to give C6 D7 Dm7/G7 C6 - again very common with the split bar.
    Compare that sequence to the turn around Em7 D#dim Dm7 G7

    Em7 is a sub for C6, D#dim is D7b9 (no root) and on to the Dm7 G7
    Just my take.

  9. #8

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    True. Take out the m7's and you have

    C D7b9 G7 C

    Which is .... *drum roll* - a circle progression...

    However, I would tend to treat that D7 not as D7b9 but actually as a straight D7(13) moving the D to Eb when I felt like it. Which makes it more like F#m7b5 B7b9, in fact. (So IN FACT I do hear it as a D#o7 despite it descending.)

    Playing B7b9 on the Ebo7 or F#o7 sounds blinking wonderful and everyone should do it.

    See
    Em7 Ebo7 Dm7 G7

    Play

    C F#m7b5 B7b9 Dm7 G7

    Oh it's Stella again.

  10. #9

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    Or with just triads I would actually play

    C B C E

    Over

    Em7 Ebo7 Dm7 G7

  11. #10

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    Ahah I knew I’d done a video


  12. #11

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    I'm overwhelmed. I really need to think about each of your statements (and video, wow) in detail, then play and think some more. Thanks, all. You're amazing. I really appreciate this.

  13. #12

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    Oh my God, that video is just enlightening.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    Oh my God, that video is just enlightening.
    Glad you find it helpful

  15. #14

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    I haven't watched Christian's video but I'm going to assume I'd wind up "+1"ing it as I agree with his other comments in this thread so far.


    Wanted to chime in with the simple not (that's probably in that video) that it's a mistake to think every chord that leads to another chord has to be some type of V7 movement. Plenty of other cadences and types of movements, it doesn't always have to be justified as V7. Minor plagal cadence is a very strong example. Diminished tonic to major tonic another nice one.


    I think this is useful not just from an analysis perspective but in our improv it's so important to get that there are so many ways of resolving or creating movement besides just

    Circle turnaround with unexpected sub-dsagsagsdagdsagdsagdsagdsagdsagdsag-jpg





    Mingus and Monk are good popular examples of alternatives, arguably types of harmony that are less explored in dinner gigs, but definitely eye opening if we want to see lots of stuff that can't be pigeonholed into V7 to I variations.

  16. #15

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    I just happened to be watching this video.



    "You Are The Sunshine Of My Life" has a similar progression to iii b3dim ii V:

    (In the key of B)

    D#m7 Fnat/G# C#m7 E/F#

    or, you could write it, to go all out with the slashes:

    F#/D# F/G# E/C# E/F#

    The point Adam makes in the video is that Stevie could have gone all-out jazz chordy here, but Stevie wanted that pop feel of triads, but amped it up with triad-slash chords and an interesting bass line.
    Last edited by BigDaddyLoveHandles; 03-23-2021 at 12:25 PM.

  17. #16

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    It’s really an extremely common progression

  18. #17

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    And easy to overthink. Sometimes there's not a lot of theoretical mish-mosh going on with it, it just sounds good because it's voice leading.

  19. #18

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    I tell you what always sounds mega on bIIIo7. The blues.

  20. #19

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    the end of section B, it supposedly has a fast (two chords per measure) turnaround that I haven't seen before:

    Em7 D#dim7 | Dm7 G7 ||

    I understand the D#dim7 leads well to Dm7, but given that the previous chord is Em7, the obvious choice would've been A7 or one of its common subs.
    This voicing can make it look more logical

    X7575X or X7545X
    X6757X
    X5758X