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  1. #1

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    I'm going to try to resurrect this thread, since it's a topic I find fascinating. I posted it originally on the Recording section of this forum, but received only a few responses (although those were great).

    This is about the details of what good time-feel looks like on the waveform when you record a group.

    Background: This started with Covid style recording -- all the players at home recording by themselves into a DAW. I use Reaper. The mechanics vary a bit, but, for the most part, I start by writing out the arrangement note by note in MuseScore and then exporting tracks with virtual instrument sounds. The live musicians replace the computer's tracks, one at a time.

    In a DAW, like Reaper, you can look at the waveform against a background of vertical lines representing the metronome click and see where the notes are in relation to a computer's precise reading of the Musescore chart. You can also hear the click.

    I was fortunate enough to enlist a top Brazilian pro drummer on a project. He submitted his track (using Reaper in Brazil) and then, after some discussion (with him in the role of teacher) recorded another take to demonstrate a different approach.

    His recommended approach for this tune, a samba at 100bpm in 2/4, was in what he called a "jazz" style.

    In Reaper, I could see that his drum track tended to be about 35ms ahead of the click. Now and then, he'd hit something on the click. This is a sophisticated style of playing, not an error. That's about a 64th note early at the tune's tempo.

    To show us the difference, he was generous enough to record a "metronomic" version in which he was still ahead but only by about 5ms. That's pretty close to the click -- you can't hear it and I'm not certain if you can really feel it.

    But, you can feel the difference between the two versions. The one that's 35ms ahead feels better and sounds more like authentic samba.

    He recommended that we use our ears, not the waveform, to place the other tracks.

    We still couldn't stop thinking about the waveform.

    So, the rest of this post reflects going against expert advice.

    If the drums are 35ms ahead, where should bass, keys and guitar be? Bear in mind, that the answer is likely to be different based on song, style, player, tempo etc.

    But, what about for this song, with this drum track?

    As it happened, the bassist was often 15-20ms behind, but with a lot of variability. Some of his notes were ahead. The drummer suggested that the bass might have been too far behind, but the bassist, a fine player of this style, didn't think he could do any better. And he liked what he had done. So did I.

    The pianist, a stickler for accuracy, played right on the click or, perhaps, edited in MIDI to get right on the click.

    On guitar, I played the first part of the song a bit behind (unintentionally - probably took me a chorus to switch mind-sets from recording engineer to performer) and then played the rest more or less on the click, which sounded better. So, I cut up the track and moved the errant notes in the first chorus closer to the click.

    Here's a link to the current rough mix of the track. Muito Non, second on the list.

    Ginga | SoundClick

    My main question here is whether anybody has gone down this rabbit hole and come out with answers as to how to place the various parts in different situations. How might being able to visualize the note placement inform one's practice to develop better time feel?
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-02-2020 at 10:32 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    Wow. Thanks for sharing.

    Way beyond anything I'm currently doing, but I would think about maybe experimenting with the order in which things are recorded/layered in. Sounds like you're saying that everyone is recording to the click from midi multi-track? ...maybe consider having bass play to the drums rather than the click etc, or some other order?... I know that the midi upload /sharing is a lot less of a headache than sharing audio etc..., but those drums will evoke a lot more than a click and would sync a ton better?...

    I'm jealous. Very cool project and great playing.

    Thanks.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Wow. Thanks for sharing.

    Way beyond anything I'm currently doing, but I would think about maybe experimenting with the order in which things are recorded/layered in. Sounds like you're saying that everyone is recording to the click from midi multi-track? ...maybe consider having bass play to the drums rather than the click etc, or some other order?... I know that the midi upload /sharing is a lot less of a headache than sharing audio etc..., but those drums will evoke a lot more than a click and would sync a ton better?...

    I'm jealous. Very cool project and great playing.

    Thanks.
    Thank you for the kind words.

    This may be more detail than you wanted, but here's how it went.

    I wrote the tune out in Musescore, including right hand piano, guitar comp, bass and some simple percussion. I rendered that in wav form and loaded it into Reaper as separate tracks.

    If I recall correctly (because this process did not go in a straight line and several other tunes were in various states of completion at the same time), I then recorded the guitar parts. There are two, rhythm and lead. I think that's the Comins GCS-1 through the Boss ME80 pedalboard right into the Focusrite Scarlet 2i2 and then into Reaper on a laptop. No amp. No mic. I monitored everything with the Little Jazz - the pianist was incredulous, but I liked the way it sounded.

    I then sent all those tracks to the pianist, who added his track. He recorded midi into Logic. He and I then edited our tracks to correct what we were thinking of as timing errors. Basically, we moved notes that seemed too far from the click, based on looking at the waveforms. That's probably exactly the wrong way to do it, but it did seem to sound a little better.

    The bassist added his track next. Also using Logic. He punched an area that had some timing instability and I moved some bass notes to make the stuff around bar 9 be more like son clave than rumba clave. Not an error on the bassist's part, but it's the way I heard the tune.

    We then tried some different mixes, sending them back and forth. Eventually we agreed on a mix

    Then, we sent all the tracks to Brazil for the drummer. The reason he was last is that we wanted to verify that we had something we all felt was pretty good before we involved one of our idols in the project. Ideal order to record? Honestly, I don't know. If we had heard his track first, we'd probably have played with him -- meaning all of us 35ms ahead because Americans tend to feel it that way -- and we would have lost the tension between the drums and other instruments which, arguably, impart the authentic samba feel.

    He did three versions, one without a click, two with a click. One of those is the "jazz" version in which he's about 35ms ahead most of the time. That's the version you heard. He did a "metronomic" track as an educational tool for us to demonstrate the difference. It sounds fine, but it doesn't groove anywhere near as hard, IMO.

    Subsequently, the pianist did an experiment. He moved piano, bass and guitar to get them closer to the drums. That was about a 64th note for the keys and about a 32nd for the bass, although not every note. He was doing that by ear at that point, but everything was moving towards the drums.

    The resulting discussion focused on the impact of that. If everybody is ahead of the click, then it just sounds like you started sooner, right? How can you tell if *everybody* is ahead? It just becomes the new beat, or so it seems to me. The pianist theorized that there is a difference when everybody is playing ahead of a mental click. He suggested that, even though it might seem like you just started the tune 35ms sooner, it won't have the same feel. Personally, I'd take the other side of that bet.

    We asked ourselves, if the drummer had played to the pianist's adjusted tracks, would he have played the same part, or would he have felt it even further ahead? We don't know.

    I ended up with this ...

    If the drums sound good 35ms ahead of the click, how many ms ahead, or behind, the click should the other instruments be for songs with grooves like this one, which is a fairly typical samba? Should the bass be a little behind (which it is at times in this track)? Should the kb be ahead? How much? Where should the guitar be? I have a favorite chord in the rhythm guitar. It occurs near the start of the first solo and it is absolutely spot on the click. If not there, where?

    Just what the heck are we trying to do?
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-02-2020 at 09:15 PM.

  5. #4
    Here's another samba.

    This one was done with an American drummer. Long time working pro, incredible resume, deep groove. Has played with well known Brazilian musicians. You may be able to hear that this track is not as far ahead of the beat. Much more comfortable for the American ear or time-feel. I don't think it's worse. In fact, I might consider it better, but that's because it's more like what I'm used to hearing.

    This track was done more or less the same way. Same players except the drummer.

    Rick's Samba, first on the list.

    Ginga | SoundClick

  6. #5

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    Studying with a drummer atm.

    one thing he said is that these micro rhythmic nuances are actually dynamic, they may shift back and forth over the course of a groove and it feels right for them to do this.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-03-2020 at 05:56 PM.

  7. #6

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    Hey Rick...how goes,

    Yea the Samba is much easier to listen to. Almost a modulating samba de "O"ish etc... Very cool. Where's the vamp or interlude... maybe on the Db13#11..LOL Fun tune.

    Maybe bass needs more attack and less sustain... more percussive. It's just fat, which leaves no room, for percussion and Pn. montuno lines. (nice pn. part). You sound great.

    I'm no expert with recording technique.... 1st tune, Muito non, was just hard to listen to. The subdividing or double time... what was going on with the feel.

    Anyway, sounds like your having fun.

    Reg

  8. #7

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    Painful doubts, if we are not sure that the offset kills the music, I totally agree.
    Although far example, but similar issues arise in filmmaking sychronizing the picture with the sound. So they use clapperboard, since a century.

    so the musician who creates the inital track, use metronom to record say a 80 ish tempo at least 10 seconds. It does not need to do anything with the tune. Then waits a few minutes, to allo others to focus, counts her/his preferred way and starts playing.

    All other musicians start they recording with the metronome and try to click with a pen on a table as exact as they can the tempo, hopefully they can catch the exact tempo, an can execute the clicks pretty steady after 5 seconds. (If this is not the case, then end of story, syncing tracks is not an issue anymore in the future :-))

    All of this will remain the prologue of the track, giving a relative exact sync way. You will have always a clear set of sync point at least a dozen, so you can even outrule some less exact for every track, and sync on the other metronome ticks, in a statistical way, more matches win, then set the offset. You can do this by waveform, but I recommend to do by "feel" which is the only thing what matters.

    The final step when each track paired with the reference first track, listen your band. It the clicks souns good in chorus, the should not be timing problem with the music, which is the continous part ov the tracks.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Rick...how goes,

    Yea the Samba is much easier to listen to. Almost a modulating samba de "O"ish etc... Very cool. Where's the vamp or interlude... maybe on the Db13#11..LOL Fun tune.

    Maybe bass needs more attack and less sustain... more percussive. It's just fat, which leaves no room, for percussion and Pn. montuno lines. (nice pn. part). You sound great.

    I'm no expert with recording technique.... 1st tune, Muito non, was just hard to listen to. The subdividing or double time... what was going on with the feel.

    Anyway, sounds like your having fun.

    Reg
    Thanks, Reg!

    Rick's Samba has an American drummer. He also had better recording gear at home. I think his part sounds great. But, it occurs to me it may be easier for the American ear to accept his approach. And btw, you nailed it -- I wrote that tune to try to get the feel of Samba De Orfeo. That was a conscious choice. I put the bridge a half step down and then up a minor third for the last A section so it wouldn't be the same tune. He send 8 tracks reflecting 8 mics on one performance. That allowed mixing and panning. I learned that mixing drums is a deep dive -- I avoided all that and, fortunately, the drummer liked the result.

    Muito Non has the Brazilian drummer playing what he termed a "jazz" feel, about 35ms ahead of the click through much of the tune. He also sent a "metronomic" version, only about 5ms ahead of the click, which sounds more American or something. The "jazz' version is a little harder to accept, or maybe I'm inappropriately bending over backwards because he's an idol. That said, when I've played with some great Brazilian players a lot of them have that forward pressure. We aren't sure how to play with it, which prompted this thread.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-03-2020 at 04:17 PM.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Painful doubts, if we are not sure that the offset kills the music, I totally agree.
    Although far example, but similar issues arise in filmmaking sychronizing the picture with the sound. So they use clapperboard, since a century.

    so the musician who creates the inital track, use metronom to record say a 80 ish tempo at least 10 seconds. It does not need to do anything with the tune. Then waits a few minutes, to allo others to focus, counts her/his preferred way and starts playing.

    All other musicians start they recording with the metronome and try to click with a pen on a table as exact as they can the tempo, hopefully they can catch the exact tempo, an can execute the clicks pretty steady after 5 seconds. (If this is not the case, then end of story, syncing tracks is not an issue anymore in the future :-))

    All of this will remain the prologue of the track, giving a relative exact sync way. You will have always a clear set of sync point at least a dozen, so you can even outrule some less exact for every track, and sync on the other metronome ticks, in a statistical way, more matches win, then set the offset. You can do this by waveform, but I recommend to do by "feel" which is the only thing what matters.

    The final step when each track paired with the reference first track, listen your band. It the clicks souns good in chorus, the should not be timing problem with the music, which is the continous part ov the tracks.
    If I understand this correctly, it's partly about the count-in. I started with a Musescore generated backing track at a known tempo. You load the wav or midi file into reaper (mp3 comes with an extra 40ms you have to delete), after first setting Reaper for the tune's tempo. This will line up the Reaper click with the Musescore click -- perfectly. You then program the bar numbers and the metronome so that you have as long a count-in as you want (typically 4 bars) and the song starts on bar 1 by Reaper's count. You actually get negative numbers for the count-in bars. That allows you to talk to the other players -- you can mention a bar number and they can see it on screen and find the right place in the chart.

    You can play back with or without a click. You can also make a new track with nothing but click (recommended, in case one of your players doesn't know how to program his DAW's metronome). The click is also shown as a vertical line on screen and you can see where the sounds of the various instruments are in relation to it.

    Apologies if I have misunderstood your post.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Thanks, Reg!

    Rick's Samba has an American drummer. He also had better recording gear at home. I think his part sounds great. But, it occurs to me it may be easier for the American ear to accept his approach. And btw, you nailed it -- I wrote that tune to try to get the feel of Samba De Orfeo. That was a conscious choice. I put the bridge a half step down and then up a minor third for the last A section so it wouldn't be the same tune. He send 8 tracks reflecting 8 mics on one performance. That allowed mixing and panning. I learned that mixing drums is a deep dive -- I avoided all that and, fortunately, the drummer liked the result.

    Muito Non has the Brazilian drummer playing what he termed a "jazz" feel, about 35ms ahead of the click through much of the tune. He also sent a "metronomic" version, only about 5ms ahead of the click, which sounds more American or something. The "jazz' version is a little harder to accept, or maybe I'm inappropriately bending over backwards because he's an idol. That said, when I've played with some great Brazilian players a lot of them have that forward pressure. We aren't sure how to play with it, which prompted this thread.
    One thing I was told about Samba (by a master percussionist) is if it doesn't feel like it's speeding up, you're doing it wrong.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    One thing I was told about Samba (by a master percussionist) is if it doesn't feel like it's speeding up, you're doing it wrong.
    What you can see in the waveform on Muito Non is that he doesn't speed up, but he's so far ahead of the click, a high enough percentage of the time, that you can feel pressure to speed up. You can hear it in the recording. The pianist heard it and wanted to redo his part,
    moving things forward, since it felt so far behind. If he does that, and we send it back to the drummer, would he leave his part alone or want it even further ahead?

    I think that's what the Brazilians mean when they talk about feeling like it's rushing -- they're trying to express this in language that gets the idea across. I think it has to be felt, but it's like learning a nuance of pronunciation in a new language as an adult. It's hard to hear the difference and it's hard to reproduce.

    OTOH, not every Sambista plays that way. For example, the Zimbo trio pianist, Maestro Amilton Godoy, seems more relaxed than that, and his groove is every bit as deep.

    There are at least two paths to that mountaintop.

  13. #12

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    Yeah it doesn't actually speed up it's just feels like it does.

    (Although in practice music off click has tempo fluctuations.)

    TBH I think you can get into the woods over thinking it; it's a feel thing.

    This is certainly not a situation unique to samba. Most feels in the world have some sort of micro rhythmic push pull to them. Samba and jazz swing are famous examples, but the general rule is that in most musical cultures people do not learn grooves with a click, they learn by feel, ear and physicality. Later, when a musician becomes a professional, they probably need to be able to get more 'on grid' so to speak, to get recording work and so on.

    As my teacher says - people who learn these traditional grooves are not themselves musicians in the European sense. The members of a Rio samba school are not professional musicians, for example. OTOH in this part of the world we start with the grid and often have to inject the feel later.

    (Your man, being a consummate professional gave the choice between something more authentic and something that might be more usable for you in your situation.)

    Obviously without a click, this can also manifest itself in tempo variations. There's some great YT videos talking about this, but a lot of groove music has surprisingly large variations in tempo. A good musician wants to get some of this energy into the dreaded DAW grids that plague our existence.

    I've obviously been recording with a click a lot recently (haven't we all.) When I record with a click, it often feels better to have a take that's slightly pushed or behind in some places to me (usually this has some relation to the structure of the music; so a chorus or outré vamp might be pushed, while a verse could be maybe more relaxed.) Again - I am playing with a click, so so long as my placement is consistent I won't be speeding up, but it can create a feeling of energy, but it is perhaps ahead of the bass, for instance. (or the opposite relaxation if I am behind)

    For swing rhythm guitar it feels about right to place the quarters slightly ahead of the beat, I think 35ms would not be unusual.

    The more I do it the more control I get over this stuff. You can do anything you like so long as its intentional.

    This stuff creates feel. It's the microrhyhmic nuance that makes the groove what it is, whatever groove you happen to be playing. Players pushing and pulling against each other. It's not an art, but a science. Not everything has to line up, in fact lining things up can kill the thing that makes it feel good.

    Listening to the track it sounds nice. I'd probably want the bass a little bit more pushed in this situation. This version feels like American jazz; I feel like the Brazilian version would be more pushed generally.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Y

    Listening to the track it sounds nice. I'd probably want the bass a little bit more pushed in this situation. This version feels like American jazz; I feel like the Brazilian version would be more pushed generally.
    Thanks.

    Were you referring to Muito Non or Rick's Samba?

    Muito has the Brazilian drummer. He thought the bass was too far behind (good call, Christian), but the bassist liked it and didn't feel he could play it any better.

    Rick's Samba has the American drummer.

    We're working on the concept of "pushed more generally", trying to detail what it might in this context, in waveform terms.

    The pianist did a mix he likes in which he moved the rhythm guitar and bass 50ms each, ahead of the beat.

    So, he moved the guitar to be maybe a little ahead of the drums and bass about equal with it. On average, with some variation.

    He edited the piano, laboriously, cutting up every phrase and placing it by ear. The only thing that remained untouched was the melody, which is heavily interpreted anyway.

    He feels the resulting track both coheres and grooves better. I'm reserving judgment -- I'm not sure how I feel about my track being moved 50ms (between a 32nd and 64th note) and I don't know how the bassist will feel either. I can hear the improved coherence, but I'm trying to convince myself he didn't inadvertently remove the Brazilian magic. That is, the band, except melody, is all together, in front of the click, so he's changed the tune in only two ways -- everybody is with the drummer and the melody is more laid back. That description sounds Muito Americano ... no push forward in the drum set and the melody behind the beat.

    Work in progress.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    If I understand this correctly, it's partly about the count-in. I started with a Musescore generated backing track at a known tempo. You load the wav or midi file into reaper (mp3 comes with an extra 40ms you have to delete), after first setting Reaper for the tune's tempo. This will line up the Reaper click with the Musescore click -- perfectly. You then program the bar numbers and the metronome so that you have as long a count-in as you want (typically 4 bars) and the song starts on bar 1 by Reaper's count. You actually get negative numbers for the count-in bars. That allows you to talk to the other players -- you can mention a bar number and they can see it on screen and find the right place in the chart.

    You can play back with or without a click. You can also make a new track with nothing but click (recommended, in case one of your players doesn't know how to program his DAW's metronome). The click is also shown as a vertical line on screen and you can see where the sounds of the various instruments are in relation to it.

    Apologies if I have misunderstood your post.
    I am not into neither Reaper neither synthetic tracks so my recommended method is for waveform tracks, for both team work with other musicians both record yourself then playback record again (and again)

    Regarding non waveform tracks my idea is when generating them with any tool, then attach a waveorm track, and do the metronome thing on that track. Bacause the synth track and the attached waveform track is in sync ba definition, any other track what are in sync with this waveform track is proven sync with the synthetised track.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    I am not into neither Reaper neither synthetic tracks so my recommended method is for waveform tracks, for both team work with other musicians both record yourself then playback record again (and again)

    Regarding non waveform tracks my idea is when generating them with any tool, then attach a waveorm track, and do the metronome thing on that track. Bacause the synth track and the attached waveform track is in sync ba definition, any other track what are in sync with this waveform track is proven sync with the synthetised track.
    I think this thread isn't so much about how to record in synch or lining up waveforms... it's about where the different instruments should be landing relative to a downbeat to create a good or authentic groove which is relevant to whether one is recording or playing live.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Thanks.

    Were you referring to Muito Non or Rick's Samba?

    Muito has the Brazilian drummer. He thought the bass was too far behind (good call, Christian), but the bassist liked it and didn't feel he could play it any better.

    Rick's Samba has the American drummer.

    We're working on the concept of "pushed more generally", trying to detail what it might in this context, in waveform terms.

    The pianist did a mix he likes in which he moved the rhythm guitar and bass 50ms each, ahead of the beat.

    So, he moved the guitar to be maybe a little ahead of the drums and bass about equal with it. On average, with some variation.

    He edited the piano, laboriously, cutting up every phrase and placing it by ear. The only thing that remained untouched was the melody, which is heavily interpreted anyway.

    He feels the resulting track both coheres and grooves better. I'm reserving judgment -- I'm not sure how I feel about my track being moved 50ms (between a 32nd and 64th note) and I don't know how the bassist will feel either. I can hear the improved coherence, but I'm trying to convince myself he didn't inadvertently remove the Brazilian magic. That is, the band, except melody, is all together, in front of the click, so he's changed the tune in only two ways -- everybody is with the drummer and the melody is more laid back. That description sounds Muito Americano ... no push forward in the drum set and the melody behind the beat.

    Work in progress.
    Yeah I really feel the bass thing on Muito. But again, the lockup between bass and drums is critical. I also want a more definite accent on '2' (or '3' depending on how Gringo you are haha) more 1st Surdo... Not louder necessarily just defined, more pointed and pushed. This is a much more important beat than '1'

    Anyway, my favourite album for drums that are not on any kind of grid known to man but unbelievably grooving


  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah I really feel the bass thing on Muito. But again, the lockup between bass and drums is critical. I also want a more definite accent on '2' (or '3' depending on how Gringo you are haha) more 1st Surdo... Not louder necessarily just defined, more pointed and pushed. This is a much more important beat than '1'

    Anyway, my favourite album for drums that are not on any kind of grid known to man but unbelievably grooving
    ..
    I always thought the surdo was exactly on the 2. But, now with the ability to examine the waveform, I'm not so sure. On Muito, the bassist varied his placement of the 2 depending on how relaxed the tune was at that point. Where the tune relaxes, he's behind the beat. Where the tune intensifies, he's pretty close to the click on 2.

    Last night, I did an experiment. I went back to our original tracks and, this time, moved the drums back 50ms. This put all the instruments together (by eliminating how far ahead the drummer is) and kept the melody where it should be in relation to the other instruments.

    It sounds pretty good to this gringo's ear -- but, the Brazilian drummer heard those tracks, that way, and chose to play 35ms ahead. He even mixed it -- so I know he heard it that way.

    Still a work in progress. I know what the drummer would say ... "don't worry about the waveform, just use your ears".

  19. #18
    When we used our ears ...

    1. We began to suspect a latency error of some kind with the drums. We're both fairly new to Reaper. I can't explain how he could play it and hear it aligned properly and then render it misaligned. It worked better when he was on the click or up to maybe 20ms ahead. If this suspicion is correct, it basically solves the problem. Duh, I guess. Basically, everybody stays close to the click, give or take some stretching because it's jazz. Maybe, the drummer can be ahead 20ms or so with the music sounding energetic but still in time.

    2. The bass part seemed behind in a few places. We were on the fence about whether to deem it a clever artistic choice (which might be right), but because we were having groove problems, we moved the errant notes onto the click.

    3. With that done, the bass and drums locked together, with or without the click.

    4. The pianist moved his phrases to align with the drums. Not single notes. He worked in phrases. I thought his original track sounded fine and I still have to listen more to figure out what he changed.

    5. The melody was heavily interpreted and worked well with everybody on the click or up to 33ms ahead.

    6. Rhythm guitar aligned with the click.

    So, the whole exploration may have been motivated by an engineering, not musical glitch. Ugh. But, tracking it down was an interesting process because it further illuminated some issues relating to groove.

    Thanks to all who responded and commented on the tracks!

    I'll post the result shortly.

  20. #19
    Ginga | SoundClick

    That links to a list of tunes, the new Muito Non mix is at the top, Muito Non 7Oct20 KD33.

    We ended up leaving the drums and keys (recalling that the pianist cut up his track phrase by phrase to match the drums) at (what we guessed to be) around 17ms ahead of the click. Bass and guitars are on the click, give or take 15ms or so because this is jazz.

    Really, how I would interpret this is that everybody was more or less on the click. Even the instruments which were ahead on average, sometimes went behind it. The pianist felt that he wanted to be on or in front, but I wasn't sure he was right about that.

    I think having the drums up to 20ms ahead (this song/tempo/groove ymmv) may give a certain forward leaning feel.

    Some thought the bass can be a little behind, but I liked it pretty much on the click.

    The melody was so interpreted that it barely mattered. I have been criticized in the past for taking liberties with a composer's melody. I don't buy it. Did Sinatra hit every eighth note written by Cole Porter right on the click? I mean, if he had a click.

    If everybody had been on the click it would groove as well as the computer generated "band" that MuseScore exports. That is, not so great. The variability is what makes the groove great and, after all this digging through rabbit excrement in the hole, we could not provide even a guideline, much less a rule. We were told to use our ears and not look at the waveform and we have independently verified that the guy who told us that was right.

    This mix is the best I can do with my ears and equipment (the latter of which I will shortly replace). The final mix will probably be done by somebody with better gear and ears. I won't be surprised if the bass is at the wrong volume (don't know whether it's too loud or too quiet) and the high frequency content may be lacking or exaggerated.

    An aside for mixologists with hearing loss:

    If you get an audiogram at the Audiologist's office, you get a calibrated graph. It shows hearing loss graphed by frequency.

    In Reaper, click View, Monitoring FX. Add in EQ as an FX module. Switch to 11 band in the dropdown menu. This affects what you hear on playback, but doesn't actually change the track.

    Then, program in the inverse of your audiogram. That is, if you're down, say, 10db at a certain frequency, change the EQ in Reaper to add 10db at that frequency.

    Play back Aja or some well produced album to make sure it sounds good.

    It will work best with headphones that are either flat in frequency response, or, maybe, at least typical of what your listeners use, if you have any idea what that might be.

  21. #20

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    That is a great playing there, glad for you having such a good time in a good company.

    My taste and playing abilities are not quite to the level, but still as an opinion of an unsophisticated listener.
    I like the latest Muito Non mix much better. The first one sounded as if the bass was struggling and the groove (in a sense of Victor Wooten, for example -- a strong feel of beat placement imposed on the listener) is not there.

    And I still like Rick's samba even more. I find it sounding more as a whole - it is completely coherent, everyone is playing the same thing and style. On the Muito Non the drummer's level of fanciness is noticeably higher than of the rest of the band. And also there is some cool quality in your style of playing which doesn't ask to be pushed by playing ahead the beat for example.

    Still my deepest respects to the everyone and to the what comes out of your playing!

    If everybody had been on the click it would groove as well as the computer generated "band" that MuseScore exports. That is, not so great. The variability is what makes the groove great and, after all this digging through rabbit excrement in the hole, we could not provide even a guideline, much less a rule. We were told to use our ears and not look at the waveform and we have independently verified that the guy who told us that was right.
    MuseScore exports lack dynamics/accenting nuance first of all - that is the primary reason it sounds so lifeless. The second thing is - no changes to tempo itself.

    I'm using an app to train sight reading Rhythm Sight Reading Trainer on the App Store and I can testify that the damn thing grooves every silly rhythm it spits at you by having sensible dynamics in place.
    There is a whole genre out there 'electroswing' (here is my bad taste coming in) which by definition is a groove-centered dancing-style music.
    Personally, I'm not convinced at the slightest that the band's groove is product primarily of note placement deviations (and I would not encourage especially rhythm section players put much faith into this idea. To me it is -- learn to play strictly on time first, then experiment with what will be a micro syncopation). I'm not saying there are no compositions/styles which call for some looseness or that you should strike the beat each time - far from it. But do believe it is difficult to be too precised most of the time.

  22. #21

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    Is electro swing still a thing?



    My enduring memory of the genre is when I spoke to an electroswing DJ about what he did and it turned out he hated it as well.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Is electro swing still a thing?

    My enduring memory of the genre is when I spoke to an electroswing DJ about what he did and it turned out he hated it as well.
    I tend to hate what I'm doing too, this doesn't say much about any genre I touch with my clumsy fingers Of course mentioning it here is a heresy.
    Parov Stelar and Club Des Belugas seemed to be active till relatively recent and I hear them in malls and cafeterias. Not a big accomplishment, but who said it is a serious stuff.
    I see it as part of general pop music development -- every genre will mutate and breed in a search of something catchy -- fresh and new enough to be interesting, but with a connection to acquired experience not to be alienating. That thing was due to happen and its life span is/was bound not to be too long.

    I still find Club Des Belugus arrangements to be interesting - a lot of fine details.

  24. #23

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    Well it's not so much heresy as it triggers flashbacks of about 1,000 gigs I did in the early 2010's.

    No music is heresy... but electroswing was quite simply peak annoying early 2010's hipsterism. To think, we went from UK dubstep and minimal techno to this.... (Of course Skrillex murdered dubstep in 2013 but that is a different story. RIP the wub 2008 - 2013, we loved you well.)

    Anyway, I quite like Air Mail special with a backbeat. Don't know why.

  25. #24

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    Although my parents really enjoyed seeing Caravan Palace at Love Supreme last year, so my opinion is null and void.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Then, program in the inverse of your audiogram. That is, if you're down, say, 10db at a certain frequency, change the EQ in Reaper to add 10db at that frequency.

    Play back Aja or some well produced album to make sure it sounds good.

    It will work best with headphones that are either flat in frequency response, or, maybe, at least typical of what your listeners use, if you have any idea what that might be.
    Maybe the engineer for Aja had a similar hearing loss as I do, if that's the case then I'm hearing it the way it was intended to be heard. Right?

    Of course that's not the case but Aja sounds damn good to me leaving it alone.

    Just talking to Mark Rhodes yesterday about the Gaucho and Aja albums and how there is some sort of mixing magic going on, so many instruments but it all sounds so clear yet at the same time so glued together.

    Oh yeah, dig your tune and the band.