The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Posts 26 to 49 of 49
  1. #26

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well it's not so much heresy as it triggers flashbacks of about 1,000 gigs I did in the early 2010's.

    No music is heresy... but electroswing was quite simply peak annoying early 2010's hipsterism. To think, we went from UK dubstep and minimal techno to this.... (Of course Skrillex murdered dubstep in 2013 but that is a different story. RIP the wub 2008 - 2013, we loved you well.)

    Anyway, I quite like Air Mail special with a backbeat. Don't know why.
    Wow, electroswing was actually a thing over there? Here in the states, it's just shitty background music for fitting rooms.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Danil
    That is a great playing there, glad for you having such a good time in a good company.

    Personally, I'm not convinced at the slightest that the band's groove is product primarily of note placement deviations (and I would not encourage especially rhythm section players put much faith into this idea. To me it is -- learn to play strictly on time first, then experiment with what will be a micro syncopation). I'm not saying there are no compositions/styles which call for some looseness or that you should strike the beat each time - far from it. But do believe it is difficult to be too precised most of the time.
    Great post.

    First off, thanks for listening and for the kind words.

    Second, your last paragraph addresses the exact issue we were struggling with. Is there some way to understand groove by looking at waveforms? And, after a dive into the rabbit hole, we ended up at the place you suggest, i.e. that staying close to the beat is a good idea and that it was difficult, otherwise, to see groove in a waveform.

    The received "wisdom" that the drums should be ahead and the bass a little behind was not borne out by our experiment. At least not this time -- with this tune, this groove, this tempo and these players. We did notice that the melody could be heavily interpreted - including being behind - and that would work. But, most of the places where bass or comping was behind the beat had to be corrected.

  4. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Maybe the engineer for Aja had a similar hearing loss as I do, if that's the case then I'm hearing it the way it was intended to be heard. Right?

    Of course that's not the case but Aja sounds damn good to me leaving it alone.

    Just talking to Mark Rhodes yesterday about the Gaucho and Aja albums and how there is some sort of mixing magic going on, so many instruments but it all sounds so clear yet at the same time so glued together.

    Oh yeah, dig your tune and the band.
    Somebody suggested adding the "Aja Test" to my attempts to compensate for high frequency hearing loss. That is, program in the corrections and then make sure Aja still sounds great. He suggested Aja for exactly the reason you point out -- it is one of the all time great accomplishments in engineering/mixing, among its other exemplary qualities.

    Thanks Fep, for your comments all along this process.

  5. #29

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Wow, electroswing was actually a thing over there? Here in the states, it's just shitty background music for fitting rooms.
    It's hard to believe, but there were many vintage/electro swing nights over here.

  6. #30

    User Info Menu

    These debates can go into the 'should we practice with a click/get super anal on DAW's?'

    (I have for some months BTW been getting super anal about waveforms on DAW's, there's not much else to do.)

    What I am learning, is that synching with a metronome is a whole lot easier if you are good at synching other things, such as your voice with your body etc. So while the metronome is a relatively new addition to the practice room (no really), it's not really telling you anything that you couldn't learn by other means. However as a tool of diagnosis, it tells you right away. However practicing with a metronome may not in itself improve your ability to synch with a metronome. I think many people assume that it will.

    Anyway, a little off topic. I think metronomic time itself is not really an aesthetic ideal, and in fact may be anti-human. Which doesn't mean don't work with a click. Just have the right combination of respect and contempt for it.

  7. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Danil
    That is a great playing there, glad for you having such a good time in a good company.

    And I still like Rick's samba even more. I find it sounding more as a whole - it is completely coherent, everyone is playing the same thing and style. On the Muito Non the drummer's level of fanciness is noticeably higher than of the rest of the band. And also there is some cool quality in your style of playing which doesn't ask to be pushed by playing ahead the beat for example.

    .
    Thanks for that!

    Rick's Samba has an American drummer who I've played with quite a few times. He has a full recording setup at home. He had no trouble with the tech side of things and provided 8 tracks, each reflecting a mic on the kit. He's a world class player, in my opinion and tremendous fun to play with. The groove is deep and there's all kinds of rhythmic information to pick from as you comp.

    Muito Non's drummer is Brazilian -- and I've played with him, live, only twice (my group hired him to do two workshops with us). He recorded three tracks, drumset, tamborim and shaker, and mixed them down to one, which is what he provided to me. He also provided a full mix with the other instruments, I couldn't submix or pan. He used Reaper and indicated that he's new to it. He doesn't have a full studio setup at home. I agree with the comment that the drumming is fancier in conception -- possibly as a pedagogical approach?

    As noted, I suspect a tech error in the timing of the track. It is clearly better when delayed by about 33ms. That threw us off while we puzzled out whether the problem was in the timing or our perception of it. Sounds dumb in retrospect, but we had been told that the drums should be "on top" in samba, this is a great player and his own mix had him ahead (I now wonder if he mixed down, inadventently introduced a delay and then didn't double check the mix - but I haven't yet found out what happened).
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-09-2020 at 02:27 PM.

  8. #32

    User Info Menu

    I can’t really contribute any knowledge on waveforms but the discussion reminds me how much I miss my favorite local band Entremundos and especially drummer Jeff Busch whose gigs with various groups I tried to follow until COVID hit. I love the way the various instruments and vocals play with the time, yet the drive is irresistible. It would be interesting to analyze the waveforms for each of these musicians.

  9. #33

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Anyway, a little off topic. I think metronomic time itself is not really an aesthetic ideal, and in fact may be anti-human. Which doesn't mean don't work with a click. Just have the right combination of respect and contempt for it.
    Danger of losing soul because of having one's time too good is exaggerated, as if it is that difficult to play loosely.
    In fact, may be the lack of timing practice itself is often the reason why recording to the click sounds bad -- a player tenses up because of time constraint imposed on him and looses fluency of expression.

    To me what is above looks like a profound manifestation of humanity. He gets 3 rhythm parts completely interlocked and blended together with a loop pedal as it is nothing. The click is nowhere in sight, yet many many hours of metronome practice are there and he started really early - VW is big on practice with metronome.

    Another reference is Emily Remler. In her instructional video she is saying that her teacher said her time was bad and she worked with metronome to address this.
    It obviously worked for her -- she is my favorite guitar player regarding time feel. She encouraged to use metronome and not to be afraid to sound robotic when playing streams of 8s or 16s as an exercise to establish 'free flow'.
    She called metronome on 2&4 to be the best drummer in the world -- in the related thread it was mentioned how important is to play with someone else with good time, here it is from Emily.

    Metronome is a something like tuner only for time - to make music clear and consonant time wise.

  10. #34

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Danil
    Danger of losing soul because of having one's time too good is exaggerated, as if it is that difficult to play loosely.
    In fact, may be the lack of timing practice itself is often the reason why recording to the click sounds bad -- a player tenses up because of time constraint imposed on him and looses fluency of expression.

    To me what is above looks like a profound manifestation of humanity. He gets 3 rhythm parts completely interlocked and blended together with a loop pedal as it is nothing. The click is nowhere in sight, yet many many hours of metronome practice are there and he started really early - VW is big on practice with metronome.

    Another reference is Emily Remler. In her instructional video she is saying that her teacher said her time was bad and she worked with metronome to address this.
    It obviously worked for her -- she is my favorite guitar player regarding time feel. She encouraged to use metronome and not to be afraid to sound robotic when playing streams of 8s or 16s as an exercise to establish 'free flow'.
    She called metronome on 2&4 to be the best drummer in the world -- in the related thread it was mentioned how important is to play with someone else with good time, here it is from Emily.

    Metronome is a something like tuner only for time - to make music clear and consonant time wise.
    It's so easy to get strawmanned in these things. There are some musicians who advice not practicing with a metronome, and many who never went near one, but enough of my favourite musicians practiced with one diligently for me to say that at the very least it does no harm.

    So, in common with most musicians today, I practice with a metronome. A few points I have learned over the years, not responding to you, but just things I've observed:

    1) musicians like VW often don't have a really good map of how they learned, and may not necessarily be able to teach how they learned. Not always true; but worth bearing in mind when looking at lessons from famous musicians like that. Some people with naturally good time may actually be prescribing certain practice activities because it's their best guess. Not always true, as I say. It is true that Emily OTOH said she had crap time and it was working with a metronome that sorted it out, so you do hear these stories. Emily also lived in NOLA and was at one point married to Monty Alexander. This probably also helped.

    I suspect VW had great feel and groove and learned to get it more click accurate later (the traditional way), but you might know more than me.

    2) Most guitarists don't know much about rhythm and aren't very good at it really, realise this, and often pass their own stress and insecurities about their time onto their students. They will repeat what their teacher said, which is probably play with a metronome, which is, luckily, far from the worst advice you can get. However we miss a lot of tricks; we tend not to do things like rhythmic independence exercises and so on that help who a lot of these things. We often tend to be nerdy dudes a bit unaware of our bodies rhythmically.

    My (Konakol) teacher suggests that sometimes as you say it necessary to start with grid accuracy and get freedom from there, much like Emily. I would describe this as the most common view I've come across in education. However there's a deeper level to this which is what causes inaccuracy, and where does it come from?

    3) The metronome doesn't DO anything apart from tell you when you are wrong with respect to the metronome. In order to learn to play better with a click, you have to do the work. Practicing WITH a metronome is only beneficial if your feedback loop works and you can understand why you are getting it wrong.

    Most often, the metronome is a tool for teaching us about ourselves. The problems revealed by practicing with a metronome are not necessarily solved by simply playing with a metronome. For instance:

    4) The metronome is not the only way to practice rhythm. Some things make it easier to synch with a click that aren't praciticing with a click; for instance. Konakol for instance is useful for this, because you spend a lot of time sticking down the 'junction points' in polyrhythm. So it's very useful to do this in order to get better at playing with a click. After all to play with a click, you are practicing synchronisation, not timing per se. Recording yourself is also a good way to learn to evaluate how well your are preforming metronome exercises.

    5) I get the impression some people (not you) I think have the impression that practicing with a metronome is about refining an internal clock. I don't think so - I think most people's internal clock is just fine, but other stuff gets in the way. If you think this is the case, try comparing your performance with a metronome with an instrument in your hands and purely vocally or clapping. For me I am always worse when playing the guitar. So there's something else going on; probably psychological and maybe technical. If you haven't tried this, you maybe surprised. Put the click on at 10bpm, and see what you notice.

    6) Most of our favourite classic jazz musicians learned time on the bandstand and never went near a metronome. As a result their sense of swing and feel is often not on the grid with surprisingly large fluctuations in tempo and so on, while sounding absolutely killing. OTOH, it is expected to be able to play on grid today. Do with that info what you will.

    7) If you practice enough with a metronome, Stevie Wonder starts to sound out of time. This is where I start to wonder. (Boom Ching.)

    8) The metronome doesn't necessarily teach you to be responsible for your own pocket. Players who play almost exclusively with a click get very good at sitting back in the pocket, but often lack confidence in projecting their own rhythmic pocket. Drummers who play on click a lot can be draggy. Perhaps less important for a guitar player who plays with rhythm sections, but something to consider.

    9) Quantisation squishes the life out of everything. It's interesting to see the current gen waking up to this; they grew up with DAW's.

    So the contempt side of it comes from practicing it, but also realising how limited that training, however helpful, in the broader scheme of things. Practicing like a scientist is one thing, playing music like one quite another.

  11. #35

    User Info Menu

    Also, something I've been thinking about a lot, because my technique doesn't encourage evenness, is evenness = good time?

    Also swinging is not necessarily the same thing as accurate time. You can swing like a barn door and be all over the place tempo-wise.

    A lot of my favourite musicians are strikingly uneven in their articulation, but nail the time where it's important. Guitarists are expected to sound more even? The aesthetic now is towards evenness in line playing which encourages techniques like alternate picking, but Wes wasn't even, for example.

  12. #36

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    I think this thread isn't so much about how to record in synch or lining up waveforms... it's about where the different instruments should be landing relative to a downbeat to create a good or authentic groove which is relevant to whether one is recording or playing live.
    You are right, my bad.

  13. #37

    User Info Menu

    I'm mostly agree with all this (or willing to accept where I don't have much to say). Amen to that.
    My grudges come mostly from observation that working on time is almost of no importance for many, this in turn affects quality of my musical life I observe that after extended period of exercising time I play noticeably better and become more of pulse provider than consumer, would be good if others helped with it. Need to stop complaining at this point and get back to work on my own playing.

    Of course, the practice should be meaningful (your point #2) -- to be challenging enough and with reflection on the results. Using metronome as a crutch at comfortable tempos will not do much. There are plenty of ways to improve (I too feel that diversity of approaches helps) with or without metronome, which is after all just a tool, not the end of road. Also it is very true that technique itself is a major source of timing issues.

  14. #38

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Also, something I've been thinking about a lot, because my technique doesn't encourage evenness, is evenness = good time?

    Also swinging is not necessarily the same thing as accurate time. You can swing like a barn door and be all over the place tempo-wise.

    A lot of my favourite musicians are strikingly uneven in their articulation, but nail the time where it's important. Guitarists are expected to sound more even? The aesthetic now is towards evenness in line playing which encourages techniques like alternate picking, but Wes wasn't even, for example.
    Of course not, to quote yourself -- play like you wish provided it is intentional. It is about control and knowledge of the rhythm, not about the rules.
    And, if the technique leads to certain style and one is happy with it that is also a good thing. Quoting Rammstein - 'do your own thing, and then overdo it'.

  15. #39

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Danil
    Of course not, to quote yourself -- play like you wish provided it is intentional. It is about control and knowledge of the rhythm, not about the rules.
    And, if the technique leads to certain style and one is happy with it that is also a good thing. Quoting Rammstein - 'do your own thing, and then overdo it'.
    Oh that is a very good quote.

    I've also heard it said 'find out what you are, and then do it on purpose.'

  16. #40

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Danil
    I'm mostly agree with all this (or willing to accept where I don't have much to say). Amen to that.
    My grudges come mostly from observation that working on time is almost of no importance for many, this in turn affects quality of my musical life I observe that after extended period of exercising time I play noticeably better and become more of pulse provider than consumer, would be good if others helped with it. Need to stop complaining at this point and get back to work on my own playing.

    Of course, the practice should be meaningful (your point #2) -- to be challenging enough and with reflection on the results. Using metronome as a crutch at comfortable tempos will not do much. There are plenty of ways to improve (I too feel that diversity of approaches helps) with or without metronome, which is after all just a tool, not the end of road. Also it is very true that technique itself is a major source of timing issues.
    A quote I've heard: 'there are two types of musicians: ones who work on there time and those who don't, and I know who I'd rather play with.' The Brazilian percussionist I mentioned above also said 'no-one has perfect time' which was good to hear because his time is amazing. But he's worked very hard at it.... In my experience people who actually say 'I don't need to work on my time' usually have bad time.

    When I see a new rhythmic exercise I suck at, I'm overjoyed, because I know if I work on it my time is going to get a touch better as a result of working on it. I'll learn some new aspect of rhythm that will deepen my listening and playing. There are things I prioritise - I'm more interested in groove and feel than tempo consistency, for example, but TBH I'm not sure there's a bad exercise; the only bad exercise is doing one exercise for years and expecting results. (I also think people can get a bit over preoccupied with the metronome as the only way to practice rhythm, but that's a side issue.)

    It's good to set out with the goal in mind? Or perhaps, more accurately examine your playing from some perspective, such as 'are my upbeats consistent?' (place the click on alternate ands for instance) and so on.

    That said, problems in music 99% of the time come down issues in one of two things:
    1) issues in audiation
    2) issues in execution

    I have both!

  17. #41

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    This mix is the best I can do with my ears and equipment (the latter of which I will shortly replace). The final mix will probably be done by somebody with better gear and ears. I won't be surprised if the bass is at the wrong volume (don't know whether it's too loud or too quiet) and the high frequency content may be lacking or exaggerated.

    An aside for mixologists with hearing loss:

    If you get an audiogram at the Audiologist's office, you get a calibrated graph. It shows hearing loss graphed by frequency.

    In Reaper, click View, Monitoring FX. Add in EQ as an FX module. Switch to 11 band in the dropdown menu. This affects what you hear on playback, but doesn't actually change the track.

    Then, program in the inverse of your audiogram. That is, if you're down, say, 10db at a certain frequency, change the EQ in Reaper to add 10db at that frequency.

    Play back Aja or some well produced album to make sure it sounds good.

    It will work best with headphones that are either flat in frequency response, or, maybe, at least typical of what your listeners use, if you have any idea what that might be.
    This bit has got my mind a going...

    Check out this video, in particular the part on the multi-band compressor at 05:30 (I wish Kenny Gioia had something like this but I couldn't find anything from him on mastering). You can use the multi-band compressor in a way of checking your mix given suspected hearing loss issues (I'm guessing we all have hearing loss except for babies). Take Aja, load it in Reaper, run it through the multi-band compressor, adjust the levels to where it is just touching them, then run your mix through that multi-band compressor with the same settings. I'd be looking how my mix was hitting those compressor settings versus how they were hitting when Aja was playing. To make the comparison you probably have to adjust overall volume to level match Aja with your mix.

    And as an aside, I'm struggling to hear the kick on your mix with both my headphones and monitors (maybe one of my hearing loss frequencies?).


  18. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    This bit has got my mind a going...

    Check out this video, in particular the part on the multi-band compressor at 05:30 (I wish Kenny Gioia had something like this but I couldn't find anything from him on mastering). You can use the multi-band compressor in a way of checking your mix given suspected hearing loss issues (I'm guessing we all have hearing loss except for babies). Take Aja, load it in Reaper, run it through the multi-band compressor, adjust the levels to where it is just touching them, then run your mix through that multi-band compressor with the same settings. I'd be looking how my mix was hitting those compressor settings versus how they were hitting when Aja was playing. To make the comparison you probably have to adjust overall volume to level match Aja with your mix.

    And as an aside, I'm struggling to hear the kick on your mix with both my headphones and monitors (maybe one of my hearing loss frequencies?).

    Interesting idea! I'll try it.

    On Muito Non, the Brazilian drummer mixed three tracks down and sent me one. I asked for the three original tracks but didn't get them. So, there's one track and you can't hear the kick very well. I also couldn't EQ or pan.

    In Rick's Samba, I had 8 separate tracks from the American drummer and I mixed the kick where I thought it should go. The tracks are EQ'ed in a couple of places and panned according to how a drummer sets up from the audience perspective (hi hat panned a little to the right, for example). I understand that mixing drums is a complicated art, but I didn't dive deep into it. Fortunately, the drummer liked the mix.

    BTW, since I started using Monitoring EQ (which I set to look like a graph of an airplane taking off ... flat for a while and then a steep climb), I stopped getting complaints about the high frequency instruments being too loud in my mixes. That is, now that I can hear them because of the amplification of those frequencies, I don't turn them up too loud in the actual track.

  19. #43

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Studying with a drummer atm.

    one thing he said is that these micro rhythmic nuances are actually dynamic, they may shift back and forth over the course of a groove and it feels right for them to do this.
    On guitar, Bobby Broom is a master of this sort of thing. He plays with time like it's Silly Putty.

  20. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It's so easy to get strawmanned in these things. There are some musicians who advice not practicing with a metronome, and many who never went near one, but enough of my favourite musicians practiced with one diligently for me to say that at the very least it does no harm.

    So, in common with most musicians today, I practice with a metronome. A few points I have learned over the years, not responding to you, but just things I've observed:

    1) musicians like VW often don't have a really good map of how they learned, and may not necessarily be able to teach how they learned. Not always true; but worth bearing in mind when looking at lessons from famous musicians like that. Some people with naturally good time may actually be prescribing certain practice activities because it's their best guess. Not always true, as I say. It is true that Emily OTOH said she had crap time and it was working with a metronome that sorted it out, so you do hear these stories. Emily also lived in NOLA and was at one point married to Monty Alexander. This probably also helped.

    I suspect VW had great feel and groove and learned to get it more click accurate later (the traditional way), but you might know more than me.

    2) Most guitarists don't know much about rhythm and aren't very good at it really, realise this, and often pass their own stress and insecurities about their time onto their students. They will repeat what their teacher said, which is probably play with a metronome, which is, luckily, far from the worst advice you can get. However we miss a lot of tricks; we tend not to do things like rhythmic independence exercises and so on that help who a lot of these things. We often tend to be nerdy dudes a bit unaware of our bodies rhythmically.

    My (Konakol) teacher suggests that sometimes as you say it necessary to start with grid accuracy and get freedom from there, much like Emily. I would describe this as the most common view I've come across in education. However there's a deeper level to this which is what causes inaccuracy, and where does it come from?

    3) The metronome doesn't DO anything apart from tell you when you are wrong with respect to the metronome. In order to learn to play better with a click, you have to do the work. Practicing WITH a metronome is only beneficial if your feedback loop works and you can understand why you are getting it wrong.

    Most often, the metronome is a tool for teaching us about ourselves. The problems revealed by practicing with a metronome are not necessarily solved by simply playing with a metronome. For instance:

    4) The metronome is not the only way to practice rhythm. Some things make it easier to synch with a click that aren't praciticing with a click; for instance. Konakol for instance is useful for this, because you spend a lot of time sticking down the 'junction points' in polyrhythm. So it's very useful to do this in order to get better at playing with a click. After all to play with a click, you are practicing synchronisation, not timing per se. Recording yourself is also a good way to learn to evaluate how well your are preforming metronome exercises.

    5) I get the impression some people (not you) I think have the impression that practicing with a metronome is about refining an internal clock. I don't think so - I think most people's internal clock is just fine, but other stuff gets in the way. If you think this is the case, try comparing your performance with a metronome with an instrument in your hands and purely vocally or clapping. For me I am always worse when playing the guitar. So there's something else going on; probably psychological and maybe technical. If you haven't tried this, you maybe surprised. Put the click on at 10bpm, and see what you notice.

    6) Most of our favourite classic jazz musicians learned time on the bandstand and never went near a metronome. As a result their sense of swing and feel is often not on the grid with surprisingly large fluctuations in tempo and so on, while sounding absolutely killing. OTOH, it is expected to be able to play on grid today. Do with that info what you will.

    7) If you practice enough with a metronome, Stevie Wonder starts to sound out of time. This is where I start to wonder. (Boom Ching.)

    8) The metronome doesn't necessarily teach you to be responsible for your own pocket. Players who play almost exclusively with a click get very good at sitting back in the pocket, but often lack confidence in projecting their own rhythmic pocket. Drummers who play on click a lot can be draggy. Perhaps less important for a guitar player who plays with rhythm sections, but something to consider.

    9) Quantisation squishes the life out of everything. It's interesting to see the current gen waking up to this; they grew up with DAW's.

    So the contempt side of it comes from practicing it, but also realising how limited that training, however helpful, in the broader scheme of things. Practicing like a scientist is one thing, playing music like one quite another.
    I believe John Mclaughlin had a DVD method available about the Indian polyrhythms you mentioned. Its good and difficult.

  21. #45
    I had an odd gig for a little while when I lived in Nashville. A singer with a band called Mel and the Party Hats would pay me to bring my drum machine and sit near the sound man for four hours to play the electronic clap function in time with the live band. It was kind of a goofy, funky rock group put together by a not so great singer with pretty good taste in musicians. Robert Pops Popwell played bass sometimes and I got to meet him and ask if we could get together and play sometime? He said he had started a church in Lebanon,Tn. about 30 miles from Nashville. I went out there early on Sunday before others had arrived and Robert sat at the drum set playing bass drum and hihat while playing bass at the same time and I got to play with him for about 30 minutes. He showed me a Hammond B3 organ and Leslie that a member of the Crusaders had donated to his church. I thought this was extremely generous but we reap what we sow. I observed people speaking in tongues which I had never seen before or since. I first heardPops with the Larry Carton Quartet at Dontes in LA opening up with a fast swing version of Misty. Pops did the Olivia Newton John Lets Get Physical Tour with Buzz Feiten and Michael Landau on guitars! I saw them on TV and Buzzy and Michael Landau trading fours was really special! When I lived in NYC I played with drummer Ronald Shannon Jacksons Decoding Society. I had to read to play the heads. Playing with really good drummers helps the most I think. Playing at public open jams is a good way to meet really good drummers to play with and ask if they want to get together and play is a good way to have fun and improve.

  22. #46
    I just looked on YT and there is a video of ONJ Lets Get Physical Live! Looks like she has really good taste in sidemen! People Who Need People BY Stevie Wonder and Barbara Streisand sure sounds good to me! When I first saw ONJ tour video was years ago but her band is really SMOKIN!

  23. #47

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by steve burchfield
    I believe John Mclaughlin had a DVD method available about the Indian polyrhythms you mentioned. Its good and difficult.
    Johnny McLaughlin was the first Western jazz musician to use Konnakol AFAIK. Popularised it.

    There's a free online from my teacher if you like. Here is lesson one.


    It's not that it is difficult? It's actually more that it offers you a very clear and logical roadmap for doing very complex things. It's a tool box.

  24. #48

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    You may be able to hear that this track is not as far ahead of the beat. Much more comfortable for the American ear or time-feel.
    They sound very different to me! I'm not deep into the brazilian thing, but I far far prefer the feel on Muito Non. A great salsa pianist once told me that it should feel like your are leaning out over the very edge of a cliff on time feel, in an exciting way, and that's how Muito Non feels to me. Whereas Rick's samba sounds good but a little more vanilla.

    If the drums are a bit ahead then I feel like the bass really needs to be right on the beat in this style, at least that's how I would hear it, particularly on downbeats.

  25. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald
    They sound very different to me! I'm not deep into the brazilian thing, but I far far prefer the feel on Muito Non. A great salsa pianist once told me that it should feel like your are leaning out over the very edge of a cliff on time feel, in an exciting way, and that's how Muito Non feels to me. Whereas Rick's samba sounds good but a little more vanilla.

    If the drums are a bit ahead then I feel like the bass really needs to be right on the beat in this style, at least that's how I would hear it, particularly on downbeats.
    Thanks. I appreciate the feedback.

    After our struggle to get this thing to groove, we ended up exactly where you suggest. The bass was pretty much on the click for quarter notes. The drums are 17ms ahead, based on a rough eyeball estimate from the wave form, given that there's natural variation. It's hard to hear 17ms, but you can definitely feel it.

    The pianist moved his track, phrase by phrase, to match the drums. The rhythm guitar was on the beat or late (my bad), and I fixed the notes that were egregiously late by moving them to the click.

    So, the track ended up with some of that forward lean, which, by the way, Brazilian musicians talk about in a similar way, at least, when they're trying to communicate the proper feel to American musicans, in words.