The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    i think james chirillo is one of the best freddie style players out there




    here's great prepared guitar site with page of great fg style info, lessons, links and vids...a treasure trove of very thorough research!!!

    PREPARED GUITAR: Freddie Green

    cheers

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    OT but ......
    Wow Eddie Costa on that Yesterdays is totally phenomenal !

    carry on swingin

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    OT but ......
    Wow Eddie Costa on that Yesterdays is totally phenomenal !

    carry on swingin
    He is absolutely amazing on that cut. A tragedy he didn't live longer.

  5. #29

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    As a jazz noob coming from rock/pop/folk, I don’t understand why it’s so coveted to “play like Freddie Green”. First of all, I noticed (and not just in this thread) that nobody really seems to know what/how he played. Maybe because nobody could hear him? And again, not just in this thread, I notice an agreement that those who appear to play like Freddie Green really aren’t.

    As a jazz student, first thing a teacher starts you with is “Freddie Green style comping”, except that it really isn’t, and nobody plays like that unless they play in an old jazz of ensemble. It sure made me sound like old Disney movies and I almost bailed from the genre... if not for the fact that none of the modern (what’s modern really, since Wes?) players play like that.

    Freddie is a hero from an era when the role of guitar wasn’t well developed. Today, a highly rhythmic supporting guitar in an ensemble is more like Cory Wong, Mark Lettieri. And you hear that kind of playing in modern jazz.

    Except as an excercise or when reconstructing a style, I don’t see the point.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    As a jazz noob coming from rock/pop/folk, I don’t understand why it’s so coveted to “play like Freddie Green”. First of all, I noticed (and not just in this thread) that nobody really seems to know what/how he played. Maybe because nobody could hear him? And again, not just in this thread, I notice an agreement that those who appear to play like Freddie Green really aren’t.

    As a jazz student, first thing a teacher starts you with is “Freddie Green style comping”, except that it really isn’t, and nobody plays like that unless they play in an old jazz of ensemble. It sure made me sound like old Disney movies and I almost bailed from the genre... if not for the fact that none of the modern (what’s modern really, since Wes?) players play like that.

    Freddie is a hero from an era when the role of guitar wasn’t well developed. Today, a highly rhythmic supporting guitar in an ensemble is more like Cory Wong, Mark Lettieri. And you hear that kind of playing in modern jazz.

    Except as an excercise or when reconstructing a style, I don’t see the point.
    complete nonsense to put it mildly.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    complete nonsense to put it mildly.
    Is that really a constructive comment?

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmajor9
    Is that really a constructive comment?
    Actually, yes. Quite literally nonsense in every sentence.
    Last edited by Hep To The Jive; 09-09-2020 at 07:10 AM.

  9. #33

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    FWIW I remember four-to-the-bar Freddy Green comping being taught in Fred Hamilton’s intro jazz guitar class at UNT in the early 90s (I never went any further in that program, switched to CG and music comp). Guess that was preparing students for the lab bands

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Whoa whoa whoa whoa. I just have to clarify a point that gets often lost in the cracks in these discussions.

    Right, OK rhythm guitar is NOT necessarily a 'swing thing' as in 1930s/40s thing. This is a bit of a misconception.

    Even Freddie Green's best known style is from the 50s Basie albums and not how he was playing in the late 30s.

    Check this out at 1:48


    Bop rhythm guitar, NOT swing. Recorded in the '60s.

    Tal Farlow
    Ray Crawford Jr
    Herb Ellis
    Jim Hall (early)
    Billy Bean
    Russell Malone

    right? (and Vinnie above.)

    They all played electric archtops, L5's, ES175s that type of thing. Roll down the volume and play precussively but don't BANG

    If you want to play swing (as in swing era jazz), that's a heavier feel, and acoustic sounds best. In that case I would advise just doing it on a standard flat-top until you are sure that you want to buy a Gypsy box or something. But that's a different feel.

    Not many people play a smooth bop style rhythm guitar, there's a lot of 'gypsy jazz style' rhythm which is not the same thing at all.
    I thought OP was talking about Freddie Green explicitly. I tried doing that with an electric guitar when i was younger and certainly would never try to do so again.

    I totally agree about the bop rhythm thing though. It's a completely different style though.

    By the way: I would never have thought, that studying freddie Green style rhythm would help me that much in other styles aswell.
    I guess the main point is about finding the right spots (rhythmical and harmonical) where you fit. Thinking about that stuff actually boosted my Funk chops aswell!

    Paul

  11. #35

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    Taught at Berklee too, at least a little bit.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webby
    I thought OP was talking about Freddie Green explicitly. I tried doing that with an electric guitar when i was younger and certainly would never try to do so again.

    I totally agree about the bop rhythm thing though. It's a completely different style though.

    By the way: I would never have thought, that studying freddie Green style rhythm would help me that much in other styles aswell.
    I guess the main point is about finding the right spots (rhythmical and harmonical) where you fit. Thinking about that stuff actually boosted my Funk chops aswell!

    Paul
    'Freddie Green style' is often used among jazz guitarists to mean any straight fours playing, so it gets confusing; in fact what we think of as a 'Freddie Green style' doesn't really reflect what Freddie did on his most famous recordings. The voicings (as Jonathan Stout points out) are actually from George Van Eps.

    FG's rhythm style in the 50s is rather different to that of the 30's. IIRC James Chirillo demonstrates more the 50's style in the video above - the 'one note/tenor line' thing. It actually works pretty well on electric, because you aren't playing the bass strings. (John Pizzarelli uses it.)

    For an insight into FG's early rhythm style and how he evolved check out the Savory collection recordings of the Basie orchestra (late 30's) where the mic captures the guitar really well; makes a very interesting comparison.

    Matt Munisteri gets a good early/rhythm sound from an electric archtop (an ES150), incidentally, rolling down the volume definitely helps, and IIRC the ES150 is a reasonably loud guitar acoustically. I think he'd rather play acoustic, but you can hear him use electric at the Ear Inn sessions:

  13. #37

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    I'm not so old that I feel any generational vested interest in swing guitar, but I would feel short-changed if I took a jazz course and it didn't teach me swing-to-bop era techniques and chops. Playing like Cory Wong or Mark Lettieri wouldn't really be on my wish list: even if I were a big fan of either of them I certainly wouldn't expect that to be near the top of the syllabus.

    Now I happen to disagree with the premise that "Freddie Green style" (and we all know what that useful shorthand refers to, irrespective of what FG actually played or when) is only about recreating swing. I think learning smaller voicings, learning those rhythms and emphases and playing with them is going to help you out in other ways I reckon.

    But even if it really were only about recreating swing, can you really be so confident that you are never ever going to want to play some swing tunes in the entirety of your professional or just-for-fun musical existence? I wonder at what point the music of Miles or Coltrane will be dismissed as an archaic irrelevance to today's precocious young jazz students. Or even, shock horror, the likes of Cory Wong or Mark Lettieri... some of that Lettieri stuff sounds a little bit 1980s, no?

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Milton
    I'm not so old that I feel any generational vested interest in swing guitar, but I would feel short-changed if I took a jazz course and it didn't teach me swing-to-bop era techniques and chops. Playing like Cory Wong or Mark Lettieri wouldn't really be on my wish list: even if I were a big fan of either of them I certainly wouldn't expect that to be near the top of the syllabus.
    They are highly accomplished but to my ears stylistically derivative players.

    Now I happen to disagree with the premise that "Freddie Green style" (and we all know what that useful shorthand refers to, irrespective of what FG actually played or when) is only about recreating swing. I think learning smaller voicings, learning those rhythms and emphases and playing with them is going to help you out in other ways I reckon.
    Yes. I see that same principles extended into the comping of players like Peter Bernstein and even Lage Lund. Myself, I see it as a continuum, a spectrum from rhythm guitar to interactive comping. There are many steps along the road.

    But even if it really were only about recreating swing, can you really be so confident that you are never ever going to want to play some swing tunes in the entirety of your professional or just-for-fun musical existence? I wonder at what point the music of Miles or Coltrane will be dismissed as an archaic irrelevance to today's precocious young jazz students. Or even, shock horror, the likes of Cory Wong or Mark Lettieri... some of that Lettieri stuff sounds a little bit 1980s, no?
    TBF a lot of young players in London have been involved with the popular swing and gypsy jazz scenes, and often have an interest in bop guitarists such as Billy Bean as well. Some of the most old school players I know are younger than me. Here's one particularly fresh faced chap:


    And here he is playing modern


    Pretty great comping in both cases IMO.

    I really struggle with the idea that Wong or Lettieri are jazz guitarists rather than guitarists who have studied jazz and can play it, but are know primarily for playing funk and pop/fusion based music. I mean, you could say the same thing about a lot of players who aren't considered jazzers!

    Just look at #jazzguitar on instagram lol. I'm an old fart, what can I say.

  15. #39

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    There is a generation of musicians today that believe they can learn everything from a video/book. And, perhaps its true in a sense that so much knowledge is available today to prospective musicians that wasn't available in the past. However, musicians are like plants. We sprout and grow in certain soils and our flowers represent that experience from the seed to the flower. When I listen to a Jazz musician, I know immediately, for example, if he began as a Rocker, C@W(rarely), or R@B/Funk player. It permeates everything they play since it was ingrained in their psyche. And, you can teach people the style but you can't teach the feel. That is much more complex. I listen to Jazz musicians all the time and their style reflects their past. Did McLaughlin play R@B in his youth? Was Grant Green a Rocker? We all know about Jim Hall. The point is if we are to play our best . . . we cannot forget our roots. And, if we hope to find our own voice . . . it cannot be purchased like an online video or a book from Barnes and Noble. It must be nourished until bloom and it is only then that we know if it is a dandelion or an orchid. Play live . . . Marinero

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by arielcee
    Strange. So nobody plays guitar in high school jazz band anymore? Not that that would entirely be the solution.

    Though it's not necessary, to my ears for that style you kind of need something acoustic. Everybody just plays an ibanez artstar or whatever these days.
    There's one guitarist in the high school jazz band, and a dozen guitarists who come to jazz some time after high school,

    John

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I really struggle with the idea that Wong or Lettieri are jazz guitarists rather than guitarists who have studied jazz and can play it, but are know primarily for playing funk and pop/fusion based music. I mean, you could say the same thing about a lot of players who aren't considered jazzers!
    “What is jazz” is a bigger topic but we could just say that they are jazz informed guitarists that are primarily known for their rhythm playing. It’s hard to find “jazz guitarists” with that profile because jazz today (and yesterday) is a genre focused on lead playing. When we talk of a typical jazz guitarist there is “...and he/she is also a great comp player” or some such.

    Another example of someone who is primarily known as a comp player, with a vast contribution across genres, is Spanky Alford. One *could* (and some people do) argue that D’Angelo and that branch of hiphop is to jazz what bebop is to blues. And Alford is a prime contributor. Listening to what he and his colleagues play, it sounds a lot like modern jazz comping.

    Anyway the point I’m trying to make is that ... ok a really bad analogy but here goes ... suppose a beginner walks in with a strat and wants to learn rock. The teacher tells him/her to put away the strat and grab a resonator because the first thing to learn is play “Son House style”. The first half of most books about rock rhythm guitar start with “Son House comping”. On the forums, questions are asked “why can’t modern rockers play Son House”.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    “What is jazz” is a bigger topic but we could just say that they are jazz informed guitarists that are primarily known for their rhythm playing. It’s hard to find “jazz guitarists” with that profile because jazz today (and yesterday) is a genre focused on lead playing. When we talk of a typical jazz guitarist there is “...and he/she is also a great comp player” or some such.
    I can't tell you exactly when jazz ends, but pretty much everyone agrees what it definitely is - on guitar it's definitely Wes, Benson in his bop years, Jim Hall and so on, and lest I be considered and old fogey I think you have trouble categorising Reiner Baas, Lage Lund and Pasquale Grasso as anything else.

    OTOH I remember no less an old school player than Ivor Mairants included Eric Clapton in his jazz guitar books.

    The penumbra of jazz is another thing. I started as a rock player, and if I listen to players somewhere in the middle - Larry Carlton, Robben Ford, Lettieri, Wong... I don't immediately think 'jazz'; furthermore I don't think someone outside of jazz would have in the 70s, but maybe more so now. All instrumental non-classical music will eventually be labelled 'jazz' it seems. Is Eddie Van Halen jazz? Probably someone on Instagram thinks that. After all, he was influenced by Holdsworth....

    Another example of someone who is primarily known as a comp player, with a vast contribution across genres, is Spanky Alford. One *could* (and some people do) argue that D’Angelo and that branch of hiphop is to jazz what bebop is to blues. And Alford is a prime contributor. Listening to what he and his colleagues play, it sounds a lot like modern jazz comping.
    Yeah, D'Angelo invented a new rhythmic concept, much like Bird.

    Anyway the point I’m trying to make is that ... ok a really bad analogy but here goes ... suppose a beginner walks in with a strat and wants to learn rock. The teacher tells him/her to put away the strat and grab a resonator because the first thing to learn is play “Son House style”. The first half of most books about rock rhythm guitar start with “Son House comping”. On the forums, questions are asked “why can’t modern rockers play Son House”.
    Why aren't people interested in the shit I'm interested in? These kids!!!!!

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    Anyway the point I’m trying to make is that ... ok a really bad analogy but here goes ... suppose a beginner walks in with a strat and wants to learn rock. The teacher tells him/her to put away the strat and grab a resonator because the first thing to learn is play “Son House style”. The first half of most books about rock rhythm guitar start with “Son House comping”. On the forums, questions are asked “why can’t modern rockers play Son House”.
    Sounds like an excellent way to teach rock guitar to me. It might at least turn out players who can do something a bit more musical than the wannabe teenage shredders I hear every time I visit a guitar shop.

  20. #44

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    Yes indeed, what is jazz?!

    One of my favourite "jazz" guitar styles to play is rhythm guitar. Here I say "jazz" in inverted commas because I'm aware from this thread (and many others) that for a lot of people jazz has to be improvised - or it ain't jazz. When I play rhythm (and lead, to be honest) it's certainly not improvised, so maybe I'm not playing jazz (although I think I am, and the more I read the more I discover many great solos aren't improvised). Secondly, the type of "jazz" I enjoy is early jazz - Louis Armstrong, Django Reinhardt, Sidney Bechet, Bix etc. Again, reading some of the threads on the forum I get the feeling (possibly mistakenly) that this no longer counts as jazz - it's more the recreation of something historic that is no longer relevant. Again, I'd disagree - bebop, doesn't seem to get the same condescension here, but that's not much newer. Covid aside, there appears to still be a fairly healthy scene for this historic music - much as there is for classical music, big bands, be-bop, Chicago blues etc. Possibly there's even more of audience amongst non-musicians for these traditional styles than for modern jazz? So I think the traditional is still relevant, but I do accept for some it's only improvised music at the cutting edge of modern jazz that should, these days, be awarded the description.

    Anyway, all that irrelevance aside, I love playing the four to the bar type rhythm guitar. I'm aware that I'm not playing Freddie Green style - what I enjoy is more La Pompe, Western Swing rhythm, Allan Reuss style and so on. I don't do any of it well, but for me there's something wonderful about a series of chords that move logically with inner harmonies and walking bass and include passing chords and lovely inversions and all that. I think it's a wonderful thing to be able to do, and in my continued absence of any skills whatsoever in improvising lead lines, the rhythm guitar thing is where I find myself focussing.

    Will I ever use it in anger?

    I doubt it. I suspect my rhythm guitar outings will be very infrequent indeed, although there are seedlings in the ground that depending on how the virus things pan out may see a small traditional combo out there one day.

    But more likely my jazz rhythm playing will never see the light of day. Still enjoying playing it at home though and I thoroughly enjoy it. I see nothing wrong with that.

    Derek

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Check this out at 1:48


    Bop rhythm guitar, NOT swing. Recorded in the '60s.

    .
    Clearly accenting the 2 and 4. Amateur.

  22. #46

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    This thread has already given me the incentive to spend a little time with the Raniolo video lesson last night and the 'Swing & Big Band' book this morning, so thanks for creating it.

    When I follow the examples in each, I often find myself trying different comping patterns and rhythms after I've got them down as straightforward 4-to-the-bar. This morning I was applying it to 'Fly me to the moon', a standard I've spent a lot of time on recently working out a chord melody version. It's been really instructive subsequently trying to work out a 'rhythm guitar' version just using three-note voicings. It was interesting trying to apply straight 4-to-the-bar to that particular standard as it doesn't really feel right: if you think of the melody line's rhythm, playing it it always feels like the second half of each bar should be syncopated and some subsequent first beats too.

    That's a long-winded way of saying that by trying to learn 'Freddie Green style' comping, I'm also learning some good different voicings and picking up a few things that would help out chord melody playing and other rhythmic comping. You can turn these 4-to-the-bar comping exercises into bossa nova comping exercises or more syncopated comping exercises very easily.

    Plus I like singing standards too, so it's quite important for me to get the hang of simple strummy comping for self song-accompaniment.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger
    Yes indeed, what is jazz?!

    One of my favourite "jazz" guitar styles to play is rhythm guitar. Here I say "jazz" in inverted commas because I'm aware from this thread (and many others) that for a lot of people jazz has to be improvised - or it ain't jazz.
    These people have been misled. Jazz is full of set piece solos that are performed almost note for note. The Ellington orchestra is jazz. Jelly Roll Morton records are jazz. Joe Henderson playing pretty much the same solo every night is jazz.

    Improvisation is a key part of the tradition for sure, but jazz is a language, tradition, community and style of music.

    Improvisation takes place in every musical culture - even classical historically. It's not really that unusual unless you happen to be a classical player who's never tried it.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Clearly accenting the 2 and 4. Amateur.
    What. A. Dick.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Sounds like an excellent way to teach rock guitar to me. It might at least turn out players who can do something a bit more musical than the wannabe teenage shredders I hear every time I visit a guitar shop.
    Exactly, I was going to say pretty much the same thing. A rock player who can't lay down a simple blues/boogie rhythm is just a useless wanker, shredding in their bedroom and posting videos on youtube. I saw enough of that. Blues is where rock started, and thats where you should start, and you're lucky if you get a teacher like that.

    There is a guy in Russia, a rather accomplished shredder guitarist, and he said a very sensible thing. Ultimate test for rock players: can you play the rhythm part of Shoot To Thrill, an Ac/dc tune. He claimed nobody actually could from his students, who otherwise could play fancy solos. In his view, and mine too, if you can't- you're simply not good.

    So for me in jazz is the same thing, if you can't do simple 4 to the bar rhythm, sorry, you're not really a good jazz player yet.

  26. #50

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    I wholeheartedly agree with Christianm77. Rhythm guitar is not Freddie Green circa 1938/39. It moved on.

    I _can_ play FG 30s/40s rhythm. I carefully studied it, and I love it. However, I play 50s-60s Freddie Green when I use that style (ultimately even getting an early-50s blonde Gretsch acoustic and jacking up the action). It's a gas.

    Still, I play rhythm more like Ellis or Hall than like Green--most of the time. It's a matter of what suits the occasion.