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  1. #1

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    Hi guys. I’m new to jazz guitar.

    I bought Mickey Bakers book and I’m already stuck. I’m trying to move a D13flat5flat9 chromatically up the neck but in the book he just shows the D13flat5flat9 and I can’t figure the root to start moving it. Help.

    Thanks Dave

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Here's a tip.

    Write out the fret numbers starting with the lowest pitched string. So, for example, G13 at the third fret would be 3x345x. The x is a string that is deadened and therefore not part of the chord.

    Then, write out the chord grip you're talking about and post it on here. Either it has a D in it someplace or, it's what is called a rootless voicing. The assumption there can be that the bassist is going to play the D, so the guitarist doesn't have to.

    Once we can see the grip you're talking about, we can help.

  4. #3
    Ok thanks. I believe it may be rootless. Here’s the grip

    46x577

  5. #4

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    D13b5b9 46x577

    It's a rootless grip.

    The chord is also an Ab7#9 which is what most would call it and is a chord that can substitute for D7 and when it does it's called a tritone substitution. As an Ab7#9 the root is clear and it's on the fat E string.

  6. #5
    Thanks so much. What I’ve figured out is he doesn’t show an x for a muted string so I assumed the d string was open hence the name D13flat5 flat9 but to move it up chromatically gets impossible. I never heard of rootless chords before. I’ve always played blues, rock. country bias chords.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2020Border
    Thanks so much. What I’ve figured out is he doesn’t show an x for a muted string so I assumed the d string was open hence the name D13flat5 flat9 but to move it up chromatically gets impossible. I never heard of rootless chords before. I’ve always played blues, rock. country bias chords.
    Jazz = rootless chords - get used to it!

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2020Border
    Thanks so much. What I’ve figured out is he doesn’t show an x for a muted string so I assumed the d string was open hence the name D13flat5 flat9 but to move it up chromatically gets impossible. I never heard of rootless chords before. I’ve always played blues, rock. country bias chords.
    You've run across this move then,

    Ab7 464544 to G7 353433

    Sometimes found at the end of blues, rock, country tunes (and sometimes in the middle of tunes also).

    That's the same idea and is most simple for me to just think of as a 1/2 step approach chord (maybe not the correct term but useful for me)... but in this usage the Ab7 can be, perhaps more theoretically correct, thought of as a tritone sub for D7. One thing for sure, regardless of what you call it, it sounds the same.

    Would a rose by and other name smell as sweet

  9. #8

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    Gertrude said that a rose is a rose is a rose.

  10. #9

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    Was hoping this was going to be a “the only thirteen chords you need to know to play every jazz tune ever in the history of jazz....” thread. Hugely disappointed.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by lukmanohnz
    Was hoping this was going to be a “the only thirteen chords you need to know to play every jazz tune ever in the history of jazz....” thread. Hugely disappointed.
    Right, there are actually fifteen in total. The rest are just for showing off or are promoted by cynical hand surgeons.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Jazz = rootless chords - get used to it!
    It's worth mentioning this.

    Leaving off the root is a really useful move for jazz guitar: Let the bass play it. This frees you up to play other notes. An easy move is to the play the appropriate 7th chord a third up:

    In C:
    Over Dmin7, play FMaj7 = rootless Dmin9
    Over G7, play Bm7b5 = rootless G9
    Over CMaj7, play Em7 = rootless CMaj9

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2020Border
    Hi guys. I’m new to jazz guitar.

    I bought Mickey Bakers book and I’m already stuck. I’m trying to move a D13flat5flat9 chromatically up the neck but in the book he just shows the D13flat5flat9 and I can’t figure the root to start moving it. Help.

    Thanks Dave

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2020Border
    Hi guys. I’m new to jazz guitar.

    I bought Mickey Bakers book and I’m already stuck. I’m trying to move a D13flat5flat9 chromatically up the neck but in the book he just shows the D13flat5flat9 and I can’t figure the root to start moving it. Help.

    Thanks Dave
    welcome ...

    many here have used the Baker book..myself included..

    you will find this site very educational in your "jazz guitar" studies...there are many very talented and helpful folks here

    enjoy

  15. #14
    Thanks. I’ve noticed. The response to my post was almost immediate and correct and helpful. The only other forum I belonged to was a Cubase chat room and in the end everyone was insulting and cursing at one another. I’ve progressed to lesson 3 in my book and it’s blowing my mind. My wife doesn’t share my enthusiasm ???cheers

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2020Border
    Ok thanks. I believe it may be rootless. Here’s the grip

    46x577
    Not so easy. add the open D string and I can't play it. Can't bend my fingers so they don't touch the D string and mute it.

    The notes are Ab Eb C F# and B. And presumably, the bassist is playing a nice, low D note.

    That makes the chord (and get used to thinking this way) Root, #11 b9 b7 3 and 13. It's not so common to have the #11 and b9 in the middle of the chord like that, but, like just about everything, there's a guy someplace who can make it sound great.

    I'd bet you can't find many guys who have used that exact grip as a D dominant type chord. Mickey Baker leaves out the D and plays it at the 4th fret with his pinkie on the F# and B.

    Now, just to throw another log on the fire, a pianist might look at that and see two major triads. Ab, which is Ab C and Eb. Also, B major, which is B Eb (usually spelled D#) and F#. So the pianist plays one easy triad in each hand and gets all those notes, although not quite in the same order. Bm is in there too.

    The guitarist struggles to finger it, curses his guitar, buys the same guitar as some guy who can finger it, and later, sells it.

    So, what do most players do? Hire a bassist who is willing to play a root (don't ask). Then you get the sound of the D7 from the 3 and b7. And you get the alterations which are b9 #11 and 13 if you can get it in there.

    That suggests, going from the 3rd to the 13th in order, F# C Eb Ab B. It's playable, barely, in the first position, although it hurts my hand.

    In the 7th position, you can play it if you grab the B (hi E string) with the side of your index finger or by bringing your thumb in front of the neck.

    Of course, you don't have to play the notes in that order. But, changing the order changes the sound.

    If you raise that grip to the 9th fret, you can use the low E to hear the bass note. 0 11 12 10 11 9 Turns out, it's a pretty good sounding chord when the planets line up well enough that you can actually play it cleanly. I wouldn't be shocked if there are guys not named Ted Greene who use that chord, but I'd be a little surprised.

  17. #16

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    Was that a joke troll question? It does not matter where the root is. Just move shape chromatically. If you hold "Dxyz123", one fret higher it will be "D#xyz123", and so on. Just get used to it. That is the whole point - be able to do it on your instrument.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    D13b5b9 46x577

    It's a rootless grip.

    The chord is also an Ab7#9 which is what most would call it and is a chord that can substitute for D7 and when it does it's called a tritone substitution. As an Ab7#9 the root is clear and it's on the fat E string.
    This is the answer, but it's much more than just being a "rootless voicing". It's also important to acknowledge that this book uses an obsolete theory tradition of the time: Naming every dominant halfstep approach as if it were V7-I. The idea was that it wasn't "theoretically correct" for A-flat to resolve to G. I learned this from a professor back in 92.

    So, it's probably been out of date for jazz since well before then. Now everyone would just call it an Ab chord, because it just is. The convention is obsolete, because it was confusing in the first place . It over-complicated PLAYING aspects simply to suit "THEORETICAL correctness" for old classical theorists, decades ago.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    This is the answer, but it's much more than just being a "rootless voicing". It's also important to acknowledge that this book uses an obsolete theory tradition of the time: Naming every dominant halfstep approach as if it were V7-I. The idea was that it wasn't "theoretically correct" for A-flat to resolve to G. I learned this from a professor back in 92.

    So, it's probably been out of date for jazz since well before then. Now everyone would just call it an Ab chord, because it just is. The convention is obsolete, because it was confusing in the first place . It over-complicated PLAYING aspects simply to suit "THEORETICAL correctness" for old classical theorists, decades ago.
    yeah..but this was a "basic" beginners jazz book...that chord would be beyond a puzzle to many if Baker said..." ok kids..this is a flat-five substitution type chord.." without alot of wordy theory that would be more than boring and confusing to many

    I used the baker book...D to G made it an easy move in understanding..V - I type thinking...the term substitution most likely would draw blank expressions on many new players that were using this book...

    old school or not...if you have no idea how "jazz" works..you play whats on the page and match it to what you hear...if it sounds good..you go with what its named...then when you begin to learn more theory/harmony and how one chord can have more than one name and have more than one function..and all that "jazz" ..then you look back at your beginnings and smile

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    yeah..but this was a "basic" beginners jazz book...that chord would be beyond a puzzle to many if Baker said..." ok kids..this is a flat-five substitution type chord.." without alot of wordy theory that would be more than boring and confusing to many

    I used the baker book...D to G made it an easy move in understanding..V - I type thinking...the term substitution most likely would draw blank expressions on many new players that were using this book...

    old school or not...if you have no idea how "jazz" works..you play whats on the page and match it to what you hear...if it sounds good..you go with what its named...then when you begin to learn more theory/harmony and how one chord can have more than one name and have more than one function..and all that "jazz" ..then you look back at your beginnings and smile
    I agree In part to what you're saying. The thing is, basically it's a substitution book anyway. It's really an ear thing and just getting the patterns under your fingers. There's not a lot of theory or "thinking". The whole deal is "play these 4 (or 8) chords when you have four measures of Gmajor".

    Anyway, that's always the question asked with this book, and it's a point of confusion. I think for modern beginners, it might be simplest to just name it from Ab7 spelling and point out that it works anywhere for D7alt. Sort of...

    In the end, the simplest understanding of that book as a whole is "just play it. Get it in your ears/fingers.

  21. #20
    Thanks. That explains it much better to me.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Was that a joke troll question? It does not matter where the root is. Just move shape chromatically. If you hold "Dxyz123", one fret higher it will be "D#xyz123", and so on. Just get used to it. That is the whole point - be able to do it on your instrument.
    I don't think so. It could be that he doesn't understand what "chromatically" means and/or thinks the "D" string is played open when it's supposed to be dampened.

    It's hard to remember back to a time when we didn't know these simple, basic things. So, I don't think he's a troll. I think he's a just beginner trying to figure this stuff out.

  23. #22
    Thank you Jack E Blue. I’m no troll. It’s exactly what you said. I intially thought the D string was played open ,, hence the name of the chord

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2020Border
    Thank you Jack E Blue. I’m no troll. It’s exactly what you said. I intially thought the D string was played open ,, hence the name of the chord
    No problem. I can't play guitar worth a damn, but I do consider myself an expert on beginners. I have years of experience being one.