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I stay awake nights, tossing and turning over the name of this chord. Ok, that's actually a lie, but I do have some minor curiousity.
Take this very common sequence:
Cmaj7 C#dim7 Dmin7 G7
Now if we abstract it a little from any particular key, the last two chords are ii7 and V7, the first chord is I7.
But what does one call that little dim7 passing chord in-between?
Is it a dim7 of the flattened supertonic? bii dim7
Or maybe a dim7 or the raised tonic? #Idim7?? Gee, that looks stupid.
In any case, I have vowed not to play "Til There Was You" ever again until I learn the proper name of this sequence.
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06-27-2020 11:45 AM
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I call it a leading tone diminished or a sub for VI7b9
with that in mind raised tonic makes more sense. Sharpened notes tend to resolve upwards, flat notes tend to resolve down.
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Technically you may resume playing "Til There Was You" because your sequence is mistaken... fourth chord is Fm6.
The old style of voicing (Django) minor sixths like that - A9/F
e.g., 1 x 0 1 1 1
I think the Roman numeral system convention ignores key signature and enharmonically assigns accidental labels to non-integer key scale degree chords' roots as flats.
biidim (diminished is considered minor)
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I think Barry Harris calls it flat two diminished, at least that’s how it’s described in Alan Kingstone’s book.
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Paul, I should have made it clear that I was only showing the introduction, the little ii V7 I that precedes so many songs. It is the second chord in that sequence about which I am curious, but only the Roman numeral system.
Originally Posted by pauln
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That makes sense to me. I guess that I almost had it right. It does look odd when described in Roman numerals though, doesn't it? Originally Posted by grahambop
Thanks Graham
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It's called anything you want to call it, obviously. Prize please
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I would have to disagree with Barry’s enharmony... (Braces for incoming.) although is it possible you are confusing it with the bIIIo7?
This is traditional functional harmony; according to my classical theory textbook the chord is written as for instance C#o7 going to Dm in C. Leading tones (major/natural sevenths) resolve upwards in common practice harmony; same with 1st inversion major and dominant chords.
(Leading tones are basically any note a half step below a chord root. In this case we are tonicising Dm - treating it as a temporary key centre, so we think of the chord as if it belonged to D minor, not C.)
This stuff all comes from continuo realisation practices etc.
however classical theory would probably just term a learning tone diminished seventh of the II degree rather than writing #Io7. It’s a sub for V/II
However jazz musicians have never been terribly interested in enharmony. With that in mind perhaps the correct conclusion is that it doesn’t actually matter :-)
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No, Barry does call it flat-two dim and it is clear what he means by it. You may be correct in identifying it as #1o in classical theory, but Barry’s nomenclature often departs from that norm, e.g. in his use of ‘arpeggio’. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I almost understand what you are saying but not quite. What would the figured bass notation look like, assuming that the root is C#? Originally Posted by christianm77
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Hey Doc... the label would reflect your analysis or how you call the function of the chord... the reason for the movement.
If your analysis is... Ima7 #Idim7 II-7 V7. Would be ascending passing or approach chord.
The leading tone chord implies that the root of the Dim. chord.... is the leading tone to the root of the diatonic chord of resolution. The C#dim7 chord can represent the upper structure of the possible secondary Dom. of a Diatonic chord In your example... the Key of "C" .... II-7 chord, or D-7 is Diatonic. so....
C#dim above.... "A"... is A7b9 and can be the secondary Dominant of the target of D-7 (V7b9 of II-7) Secondary Dom. chord.
But your analysis or how you hear or want the chord .... to work would define the label and rest of notes, extensions or common scale used to create your melody etc...
Pretty easy for me... I hate Diminished chords and scales, I also don't like BH concepts. Especially on guitar. Works great for solo work or trios etc...
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b5 or crossed 5... I do not think it was possible to apply immidiately b5 and bb7 at a time.. if it ever happened my idea in those days it would have been sunsequent... first C# appears then probably 7th move down half step... or vice versa..I almost understand what you are saying but not quite. What would the figured bass notation look like, assuming that the root is C#?
It is posibble in some flowing chordal polyphony (like Bach'a 1st prelude in WTK for example).. when it is possible to have major 7th showng up as a result of voices moving around..
But I can hardly imagine it as a harmonic turnaround (like comping some Handel style air for example)... they would just work with a triad or first A major (or A7) inversion.. that Bb is too harsh for harmonic sound... it is only possible in the flowing polyphonic texture...
I also think this turnaround is not possible in classical per se like in jazz -- in the same role... lke opening changes of the piece and so on..
I will also add that C#dim7 in classical music would hardly be resolved to Dm7... it goes to the D minor triad (there is not liead fo rthe 7th).
Also in classical lead 7th chord is usually diatonic and it is half dim no dim... to it would be most probably B natural and sould not sound that harsh as with Bb and B nat could be move on to C (7th of Dm7) if needed - though in classical I would still prefer to resolve to A and to lead to D minor triad.. at least in harmonic context
In other words Bnat and Bflat would have been strictly passing tones going from C nat down to A nat (D minor triad)Last edited by Jonah; 06-27-2020 at 06:02 PM.
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In jazz I treat it simply as melodic bass move supported with contrary motion in one of the voices -
in jazz you can resolve it to D minor triad smoothly if you double C# and resove it in opposite directions
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I’m sure he has a good reason for calling it that, not that I can see it at a casual glance. Originally Posted by pcjazz
I’m a bit surprised because Barry tends AFAIK to view dim chords as being named from the third of the dominant. The C#o7 relates so clearly to the A7 I’m surprised he’d call it a biio7
But as I say, there must be a reason for it.
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perhaps by analogy to the biiio7 which is more important in his thinking Originally Posted by christianm77
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Because of wanting to express the bass line moving C Dd D? That would be my reason, but also because generally the root note is the most informative of the parts of the name (about how it sounds, not necessarily how it was constructed). Originally Posted by christianm77
It looks like the parsing hierarchy of chord naming convention was designed to reveal how they sound as quickly as possible, with a descendingly informative series of symbols, emphasizing the sound as quickly as possible rather than how they might have been constructed. Wiki has the naming construction order as below, which looks like each step is adding less "urgent" information:
- the root note
- the chord quality
- whether the chord is a triad, seventh chord, or an extended chord
- any altered notes
- any added tones
- the bass note if it is not the root
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The C#dim7 functions as a VI7b9 without the root. Rhythm changes. Call it a bIIdim7. No need to over-think it.
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For what it’s worth, on the same page of Alan’s book (p. 26) he talks about the flat three dim, the sharp four dim, and the flat two dim. Originally Posted by pcjazz
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Yea... you need to decide on what you call it ....the label or notation...generally from some type reason, generally an analysis. In jazz either a deceptive voicing of V7 chord of target or just chromatic passing or approach chord. The choice reflects the rest of the notes or extensions you would have access to and how you might actually play. All those details Pauln mentioned. Eventually you just don't play basic vanilla lead sheet changes or chord tones with embellishments. (Or maybe that's what you do). Don't get stuck in a Loop and get in a situation in which there is no way-out and in which the same things keep repeating themselves over and over again following the same order or process.
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But have a look at p.28 where he uses a different naming scheme. I think this is Alan, not Barry. Barry talks about the diminished of the key (found on the 3rd of the dominant chord and equivalent to the major seventh of the key), the biio and the biiio. Alan's #ivo is an inversion of the biiio. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Doesn’t really matter. But I won’t be able to sleep.
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Au contraire, mentally reviewing all this stuff beats counting sheep. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I have learned a lot from this thread. Among other things, it has reinforced my "hearing" of the chord. I always thought of it as simply a dim7 on the flattened supertonicc, but that was never a really satisfactory explanation. I always heard it as a some version of VI which would make sense in the progression I - VI - ii - V7, a pretty common change. So now my problem is solved. The progression, in Roman numerals is:
I7 - VI7b9 - ii7 - V7
Play it starting with the root of the I7 on the 5th string, 3rd fret. Play it again without the Bb (so, just an A7/c#) and the change from A7 to Dm is downright baroque
I guess I could also still call it biidim7 but that seems a little awkward now.
Thanks guys.
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Is your I chord major (as in post #1) or dominant (as here)? Originally Posted by doc w
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I = major triad Originally Posted by pcjazz
I7 = major triad with a major seventh added
Ib7 = major triad with a minor seventh added which would be a dominant 7
Is that correct?
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What ever happened to "passing chord"?
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C#dim7.... C# E G A# ( or Dbdim7... Db Fb Abb Cbb)
Typical Dom7 subs from Diminished chords...A7, Eb7. C7 and F#7
-C# and G are tritone of A7, the secondary V7 of II. then invert and...
- G and C# are tritone of Eb7 the Sub of A7
E and A# are tritone of C7, the secondary V7 of IV. then invert and becomes F#7, it's sub
You can then start playing the Borrowing game... Relative and Parallel Minor Reference game for more labels.
Again if you actually try and organize extensions, the other notes.... How or what you label has melodic implications.
So doc... if your calling the C#Dim7 chord a sub for VI7b9 and your reference is,
C7 A7b9 D-7 G7.... even with the C7 the A7b9 is just a secondary Dom. of II-7. Typically the notes of that V7 of II- would be... A Bb (C) C# D E F G or pre-50-60 years ago...Target Harmonic Min. or D har min V7b9b13 1 b9 3 11 5 b13 b7... add #9 and Altered from MM are somewhat newer....but very common.
Yea bIIdim7 implies more of chromatic... passing or approach non-dominant function, as mentioned also...
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Didn't the Duke tell us something about the biii07..
xx7768
xx7878
xx7788
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Use whatever shorthand you like; your system makes sense for distinguishing triads from 7th chords but I tend to think in terms of lead sheet symbols and so interpret I as tonic major — could be triad, maj6th, 6th on the fifth, major seventh, etc — and I7 as some flavour of dominant built on the tonic of the key (dom7, m6 on the 5th, dim, etc). However it’s easy enough to express these things unambiguously when necessary by employing additional keystrokes or (shudder) notation. Originally Posted by doc w
How would you indicate a minor major seventh chord - Im7 and Imb7 for minor seventh? So your ii-V-I would be iimb7-Vb7-I7 ? Makes a certain kind of sense to me but I find it hard to parse on the fly.
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Well... it has passed. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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for whatever reason the term "diminished" causes alot of confusion..much like traffic signals..ok red is stop..green is go...but suddenly !!! the light turns BLUE..blue?..what the hell does blue mean??
and here we go..is it a passing chord or a misnamed dominant..and if its a diminished chord..is it from a Idim7 IVdim7 or a Vdim7 family
Idim7 chords
C Eb Gb A
IVdim7 chords
F Ab B D
Vdim7 chords
G Bb Db E
so lets see if we have all the notes of the chromatic scale here
C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B
so if I erase the notes from each group..I should have none left
Idim7 (notes left)
Db D E F G Ab Bb B
IVdim7 (notes left)
Db E G Bb
Vdim7 and...
Ta-Da !!
so lets see
so..the progression in question is
CMA7 C#/Db ?? Dmi7 G7
the Db is in the V7dim family..what does V7 tell us about its function...passing or dominant
to me I would consider it a dominant function and being the progression is in a diatonic harmony framework
I would then consider it a A7b9/C#
and then it becomes a very familiar progression
IMa7 Vi7b9 iim7 V7
Even if the I chord is a dominant C7..the remaining chords are not altering its function at all ..
and as C7 A7 can be related via symmetrical harmony
it reinforces the function of the of the C#dim7 as an A7b9
just my take
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Not your last two chord names... in the Germanic music world where Bb is named "H", our treatment of the dominant seventh chord name similarly leaves off the accidental and uses C7 without an accidental, even though that scale degree is the flat seven, b7... Originally Posted by doc w
C Major = C = CM = Cmaj = C? = I (means no seventh) so C E G
C Major seventh = Cmaj7 = Cma7 = CM7 = C?7 = Imaj7 = IM7 (means B) so C E G B
C Dominant Seventh = C7 = I7 (means Bb, the dominant seventh b7) so C E G Bb
edit--- I notice the triangle symbol used for "major" is showing up as "?", works in edit, not when posted.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Cad!
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Initially, I was talking mainly about Roman (and arabic) numbers. Originally Posted by pauln
So, the triad built on the first degree of the scale is a major triad. If I add the seventh degree of the scale, I get the chord I7. So far, I have not made any reference to key, only Roman numerals. I7 is a major seven chord regardless of the key in which it appears.
However, if we step away from Roman numerals for a moment, and name a specific chord, like C7, we are now talking about a dominant 7 chord, i.e., the dominant 7 in the key of F.
I7 is not a dominant 7 chord. It is a chord built on the tonic with a seven added. It would be a major seven because it is on the first degree of the scale. In the same way, ii7 is not a dominant 7 chord. It is simply the triad of the second degree of the scale with a 7 added. In this case, because it is the second degree of the scale, the added 7 interval is a minor seven.
C7 Is not a major seven chord but a dominant 7 chord because it is built on the fifth degree of the scale of F major (which has a Bb). There is no Bb in the key of C.
Man, this is getting dense!
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I have marked the parts that I think are incorrect as red...
Initially, I was talking mainly about Roman (and arabic) numbers.
So, the triad built on the first degree of the scale is a major triad. If I add the seventh degree of the scale, I get the chord I7. So far, I have not made any reference to key, only Roman numerals. I7 is a major seven chord regardless of the key in which it appears.
However, if we step away from Roman numerals for a moment, and name a specific chord, like C7, we are now talking about a dominant 7 chord, i.e., the dominant 7 in the key of F.
I7 is not a dominant 7 chord. It is a chord built on the tonic with a seven added. It would be a major seven because it is on the first degree of the scale. In the same way, ii7 is not a dominant 7 chord. It is simply the triad of the second degree of the scale with a 7 added. In this case, because it is the second degree of the scale, the added 7 interval is a minor seven.
C7 Is not a major seven chord but a dominant 7 chord because it is built on the fifth degree of the scale of F major (which has a Bb). There is no Bb in the key of C.
Man, this is getting dense!
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Let's just deal with the first degree of the scale. I7 refers to a triad built on the first degree of the scale with an interval of a seventh added. What kind of 7? On the first degree of the scale, that interval is going to be a major 7. I didn't make this up. It is just how secondary sevenths are made. Originally Posted by pauln
If we now plop I7 into an actual key, say C major, we get C E G B. I am repeating myself now, but there is no Bb in the key of C. Thus I7 is always going to be a major seventh chord. It is never going to be a dominant 7.
My background is classical. Maybe we just do things differently.
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On a blues tune would it be Dom 7? Originally Posted by doc w
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Ah interesting. That's why then. Different notational conventions. Originally Posted by doc w
I think when jazzers write I7 they mean I 'dominant' seventh, like the chord symbol.
I understand this would be word salad to a classical theorist. So use the term major-minor seventh if you prefer.
But the upshot is that that chord symbol always applies to the structure 1 3 5 b7 whether it is acting as a dominant, or note (such as in the case of a blues.) That's how I use it. Confusing I know.
Not like figured bass, where 7 just tells you it's a diatonic 7th chord unless otherwise indicated, which is the convention I think you are using.
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with blues it's messy... clear that the covention is based on regular 7 note scales - basically major and minor... Originally Posted by grahambop
Blues harmony and modes are a mess in that sense... I7 is dominant (Bb in C major) but V7 contains B nat... F7 has Eb but C7 has an E nat...
I hear blues harmony as just set of dominant chords that are based parallel movemenet of 3rd - 7th combinations (something like linear shell voicings).... it does not really function as dominant function in classical sense to my ear
I guess with numenrals in blues it is sort of convention that on very chord there is a dominant scale presumed.
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If I have to use it in jazz - I do not hezitate to write Imaj7 Originally Posted by christianm77
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Just remember that chord symbols are the basic analytical tool of jazz, and there's no confusion. It's not a given that jazz musicians understand figured bass or classical analytical notations. But if you can play jazz, you should be OK with the conventions. If you can read Originally Posted by Jonah
Cmaj7 C#o7 | Cm7 F7
then
Imaj7 #Io7 | IIm7 V7
ought to make sense.
For short hand I generally just notate basic sounds and leave it open, unless I want to specify extensions.
I I#o7 | IIm7 V7 |
So
C = C major (Cmaj7, C6, Cmaj9, C6/9 etc)
Cm = C minor (Cm, Cm6, Cm(maj7)) 'true minor'
Cm7 = C minor seventh (Cm7,. Cm9, Cm11 etc) 'subdominant minor'
C7 = C dominant seventh (C7, C9, C13, C7#9, C7alt etc)
Cm7b5 = Eb minor of course :-)
Co7 = C diminished seventh (Co7, Co7(maj7) etc)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Yes, I remember.
In jazz it is just 'two part symbol'
you have scale number in Roman numeral
you have chord quality symbol
Very analytic construction
I + maj7 = major seveth chord on th 1st degree of the key or scale in reference of ocontext
In classical it is more synthetic code, both parts (especially 2nd part) could mean different things and it depends on context how to 'decode' them.... more references involved.
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Unless you are Charlie Parker. Originally Posted by Jonah
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I would say until there shows up Charlie Parker Originally Posted by pcjazz
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Blues doesn't count. In blues, everything has a flatted 7 lol! Originally Posted by grahambop
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Sometimes blues has the minor seventh, sometimes a 6th on the I chord. Parker liked to play major seventh a lot.
the old swing blues scale is with a 6th
1 2 b3 3 5 6 1
b7s could be used too but it’s only when people started to add major sevenths or voicings that blues chords and major chords became more difficult to reconcile.
b7 on all the chords in a blues is more like a Blue note era vibe
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At the end of the day, I use the Roman numeral method to talk about changes in general, but even that is kind of limited if there is a lot, or even some, modulation in a given piece.
I use standard chord symbols. "Standard" is a bit of a joke in jazz since, however. The great thing about standards is that eveyone can have their own.
So I wilil probably still write Cmaj7 C#dim7 Dm7 G7, even though I know deep down that the second chord is actually VI7b9 with no root.. first inversion... or ... whatever.
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Not everything: Originally Posted by doc w
diminished seventh chords
major seventh and six nine chords
augmented (no seventh) chords
minor major seventh chords
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Lightning Hopkins never heard of that stuff! Originally Posted by pauln
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I ... use it as VI, name it "3rd of VI" dim. Originally Posted by doc w
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