The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    What ever happened to "passing chord"?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    C#dim7.... C# E G A# ( or Dbdim7... Db Fb Abb Cbb)

    Typical Dom7 subs from Diminished chords...A7, Eb7. C7 and F#7

    -C# and G are tritone of A7, the secondary V7 of II. then invert and...
    - G and C# are tritone of Eb7 the Sub of A7

    E and A# are tritone of C7, the secondary V7 of IV. then invert and becomes F#7, it's sub

    You can then start playing the Borrowing game... Relative and Parallel Minor Reference game for more labels.

    Again if you actually try and organize extensions, the other notes.... How or what you label has melodic implications.

    So doc... if your calling the C#Dim7 chord a sub for VI7b9 and your reference is,

    C7 A7b9 D-7 G7.... even with the C7 the A7b9 is just a secondary Dom. of II-7. Typically the notes of that V7 of II- would be... A Bb (C) C# D E F G or pre-50-60 years ago...Target Harmonic Min. or D har min V7b9b13 1 b9 3 11 5 b13 b7... add #9 and Altered from MM are somewhat newer....but very common.

    Yea bIIdim7 implies more of chromatic... passing or approach non-dominant function, as mentioned also...

  4. #28

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    Didn't the Duke tell us something about the biii07..


    xx7768
    xx7878
    xx7788

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by doc w
    I = major triad
    I7 = major triad with a major seventh added
    Ib7 = major triad with a minor seventh added which would be a dominant 7

    Is that correct?
    Use whatever shorthand you like; your system makes sense for distinguishing triads from 7th chords but I tend to think in terms of lead sheet symbols and so interpret I as tonic major — could be triad, maj6th, 6th on the fifth, major seventh, etc — and I7 as some flavour of dominant built on the tonic of the key (dom7, m6 on the 5th, dim, etc). However it’s easy enough to express these things unambiguously when necessary by employing additional keystrokes or (shudder) notation.

    How would you indicate a minor major seventh chord - Im7 and Imb7 for minor seventh? So your ii-V-I would be iimb7-Vb7-I7 ? Makes a certain kind of sense to me but I find it hard to parse on the fly.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    What ever happened to "passing chord"?
    Well... it has passed.

  7. #31

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    for whatever reason the term "diminished" causes alot of confusion..much like traffic signals..ok red is stop..green is go...but suddenly !!! the light turns BLUE..blue?..what the hell does blue mean??

    and here we go..is it a passing chord or a misnamed dominant..and if its a diminished chord..is it from a Idim7 IVdim7 or a Vdim7 family

    Idim7 chords
    C Eb Gb A

    IVdim7 chords
    F Ab B D

    Vdim7 chords
    G Bb Db E

    so lets see if we have all the notes of the chromatic scale here

    C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B
    so if I erase the notes from each group..I should have none left

    Idim7 (notes left)
    Db D E F G Ab Bb B

    IVdim7 (notes left)
    Db E G Bb

    Vdim7 and...

    Ta-Da !!

    so lets see

    so..the progression in question is

    CMA7 C#/Db ?? Dmi7 G7

    the Db is in the V7dim family..what does V7 tell us about its function...passing or dominant

    to me I would consider it a dominant function and being the progression is in a diatonic harmony framework
    I would then consider it a A7b9/C#

    and then it becomes a very familiar progression

    IMa7 Vi7b9 iim7 V7

    Even if the I chord is a dominant C7..the remaining chords are not altering its function at all ..
    and as C7 A7 can be related via symmetrical harmony
    it reinforces the function of the of the C#dim7 as an A7b9

    just my take

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by doc w
    I = major triad
    I7 = major triad with a major seventh added
    Ib7 = major triad with a minor seventh added which would be a dominant 7

    Is that correct?
    Not your last two chord names... in the Germanic music world where Bb is named "H", our treatment of the dominant seventh chord name similarly leaves off the accidental and uses C7 without an accidental, even though that scale degree is the flat seven, b7...

    C Major = C = CM = Cmaj = C? = I (means no seventh) so C E G

    C Major seventh = Cmaj7 = Cma7 = CM7 = C?7 = Imaj7 = IM7 (means B) so C E G B

    C Dominant Seventh = C7 = I7 (means Bb, the dominant seventh b7) so C E G Bb

    edit--- I notice the triangle symbol used for "major" is showing up as "?", works in edit, not when posted.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I would have to disagree with Barry’s enharmony... (Braces for incoming.) :-)

    Cad!

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Not your last two chord names... in the Germanic music world where Bb is named "H", our treatment of the dominant seventh chord name similarly leaves off the accidental and uses C7 without an accidental, even though that scale degree is the flat seven, b7...

    C Major = C = CM = Cmaj = C? = I (means no seventh) so C E G

    C Major seventh = Cmaj7 = Cma7 = CM7 = C?7 = Imaj7 = IM7 (means B) so C E G B

    C Dominant Seventh = C7 = I7 (means Bb, the dominant seventh b7) so C E G Bb

    edit--- I notice the triangle symbol used for "major" is showing up as "?", works in edit, not when posted.
    Initially, I was talking mainly about Roman (and arabic) numbers.

    So, the triad built on the first degree of the scale is a major triad. If I add the seventh degree of the scale, I get the chord I7. So far, I have not made any reference to key, only Roman numerals. I7 is a major seven chord regardless of the key in which it appears.

    However, if we step away from Roman numerals for a moment, and name a specific chord, like C7, we are now talking about a dominant 7 chord, i.e., the dominant 7 in the key of F.

    I7 is not a dominant 7 chord. It is a chord built on the tonic with a seven added. It would be a major seven because it is on the first degree of the scale. In the same way, ii7 is not a dominant 7 chord. It is simply the triad of the second degree of the scale with a 7 added. In this case, because it is the second degree of the scale, the added 7 interval is a minor seven.

    C7 Is not a major seven chord but a dominant 7 chord because it is built on the fifth degree of the scale of F major (which has a Bb). There is no Bb in the key of C.

    Man, this is getting dense!

  11. #35

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    I have marked the parts that I think are incorrect as red...


    Initially, I was talking mainly about Roman (and arabic) numbers.

    So, the triad built on the first degree of the scale is a major triad. If I add the seventh degree of the scale, I get the chord I7. So far, I have not made any reference to key, only Roman numerals. I7 is a major seven chord regardless of the key in which it appears.

    However, if we step away from Roman numerals for a moment, and name a specific chord, like C7, we are now talking about a dominant 7 chord, i.e., the dominant 7 in the key of F.

    I7 is not a dominant 7 chord. It is a chord built on the tonic with a seven added. It would be a major seven because it is on the first degree of the scale. In the same way, ii7 is not a dominant 7 chord. It is simply the triad of the second degree of the scale with a 7 added. In this case, because it is the second degree of the scale, the added 7 interval is a minor seven.

    C7 Is not a major seven chord but a dominant 7 chord because it is built on the fifth degree of the scale of F major (which has a Bb). There is no Bb in the key of C.

    Man, this is getting dense!

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I have marked the parts that I think are incorrect as red...


    Initially, I was talking mainly about Roman (and arabic) numbers.

    So, the triad built on the first degree of the scale is a major triad. If I add the seventh degree of the scale, I get the chord I7. So far, I have not made any reference to key, only Roman numerals. I7 is a major seven chord regardless of the key in which it appears.

    However, if we step away from Roman numerals for a moment, and name a specific chord, like C7, we are now talking about a dominant 7 chord, i.e., the dominant 7 in the key of F.

    I7 is not a dominant 7 chord. It is a chord built on the tonic with a seven added. It would be a major seven because it is on the first degree of the scale. In the same way, ii7 is not a dominant 7 chord. It is simply the triad of the second degree of the scale with a 7 added. In this case, because it is the second degree of the scale, the added 7 interval is a minor seven.

    C7 Is not a major seven chord but a dominant 7 chord because it is built on the fifth degree of the scale of F major (which has a Bb). There is no Bb in the key of C.

    Man, this is getting dense!
    Let's just deal with the first degree of the scale. I7 refers to a triad built on the first degree of the scale with an interval of a seventh added. What kind of 7? On the first degree of the scale, that interval is going to be a major 7. I didn't make this up. It is just how secondary sevenths are made.

    If we now plop I7 into an actual key, say C major, we get C E G B. I am repeating myself now, but there is no Bb in the key of C. Thus I7 is always going to be a major seventh chord. It is never going to be a dominant 7.

    My background is classical. Maybe we just do things differently.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by doc w
    Thus I7 is always going to be a major seventh chord. It is never going to be a dominant 7.
    On a blues tune would it be Dom 7?

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by doc w
    Let's just deal with the first degree of the scale. I7 refers to a triad built on the first degree of the scale with an interval of a seventh added. What kind of 7? On the first degree of the scale, that interval is going to be a major 7. I didn't make this up. It is just how secondary sevenths are made.

    If we now plop I7 into an actual key, say C major, we get C E G B. I am repeating myself now, but there is no Bb in the key of C. Thus I7 is always going to be a major seventh chord. It is never going to be a dominant 7.

    My background is classical. Maybe we just do things differently.
    Ah interesting. That's why then. Different notational conventions.

    I think when jazzers write I7 they mean I 'dominant' seventh, like the chord symbol.

    I understand this would be word salad to a classical theorist. So use the term major-minor seventh if you prefer.

    But the upshot is that that chord symbol always applies to the structure 1 3 5 b7 whether it is acting as a dominant, or note (such as in the case of a blues.) That's how I use it. Confusing I know.

    Not like figured bass, where 7 just tells you it's a diatonic 7th chord unless otherwise indicated, which is the convention I think you are using.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    On a blues tune would it be Dom 7?
    with blues it's messy... clear that the covention is based on regular 7 note scales - basically major and minor...

    Blues harmony and modes are a mess in that sense... I7 is dominant (Bb in C major) but V7 contains B nat... F7 has Eb but C7 has an E nat...

    I hear blues harmony as just set of dominant chords that are based parallel movemenet of 3rd - 7th combinations (something like linear shell voicings).... it does not really function as dominant function in classical sense to my ear


    I guess with numenrals in blues it is sort of convention that on very chord there is a dominant scale presumed.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Ah interesting. That's why then. Different notational conventions.

    I think when jazzers write I7 they mean I 'dominant' seventh, like the chord symbol.

    I understand this would be word salad to a classical theorist. So use the term major-minor seventh if you prefer.

    But the upshot is that that chord symbol always applies to the structure 1 3 5 b7 whether it is acting as a dominant, or note (such as in the case of a blues.) Not like figured bass, where 7 just tells you it's a diatonic 7th chord unless otherwise indicated.

    That's how I use it. Confusing I know.
    If I have to use it in jazz - I do not hezitate to write Imaj7

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    with blues it's messy... clear that the covention is based on regular 7 note scales - basically major and minor...

    Blues harmony and modes are a mess in that sense... I7 is dominant (Bb in C major) but V7 contains B nat... F7 has Eb but C7 has an E nat...

    I hear blues harmony as just set of dominant chords that are based parallel movemenet of 3rd - 7th combinations (something like linear shell voicings).... it does not really function as dominant function in classical sense to my ear


    I guess with numenrals in blues it is sort of convention that on very chord there is a dominant scale presumed.
    Just remember that chord symbols are the basic analytical tool of jazz, and there's no confusion. It's not a given that jazz musicians understand figured bass or classical analytical notations. But if you can play jazz, you should be OK with the conventions. If you can read

    Cmaj7 C#o7 | Cm7 F7

    then

    Imaj7 #Io7 | IIm7 V7

    ought to make sense.

    For short hand I generally just notate basic sounds and leave it open, unless I want to specify extensions.

    I I#o7 | IIm7 V7 |

    So
    C = C major (Cmaj7, C6, Cmaj9, C6/9 etc)
    Cm = C minor (Cm, Cm6, Cm(maj7)) 'true minor'
    Cm7 = C minor seventh (Cm7,. Cm9, Cm11 etc) 'subdominant minor'
    C7 = C dominant seventh (C7, C9, C13, C7#9, C7alt etc)
    Cm7b5 = Eb minor of course :-)
    Co7 = C diminished seventh (Co7, Co7(maj7) etc)

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Just remember that chord symbols are the basic analytical tool of jazz, and there's no confusion. It's not a given that jazz musicians understand figured bass or classical analytical notations. But if you can play jazz, you should be OK with the conventions. If you can read

    Cmaj7 C#o7 | Cm7 F7

    then

    Imaj7 #Io7 | IIm7 V7

    ought to make sense.

    For short hand I generally just notate basic colours, unless I want to specify extensions.

    I I#o7 | IIm7 V7 |

    So
    C = C major (Cmaj7 or C6 usually)
    Cm = C minor (Cm, Cm6, Cm(maj7)) 'true minor'
    Cm7 = C minor seventh (Cm7,. Cm9, Cm11 etc) 'subdominant minor'
    C7 = C dominant seventh (C7, C9, C13, C7#9, C7alt etc)
    Cm7b5 = Eb minor of course :-)
    Co7 = C diminished seventh (Co7, Co7(maj7) etc)

    Yes, I remember.

    In jazz it is just 'two part symbol'

    you have scale number in Roman numeral
    you have chord quality symbol
    Very analytic construction

    I + maj7 = major seveth chord on th 1st degree of the key or scale in reference of ocontext

    In classical it is more synthetic code, both parts (especially 2nd part) could mean different things and it depends on context how to 'decode' them.... more references involved.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah

    I guess with numenrals in blues it is sort of convention that on very chord there is a dominant scale presumed.
    Unless you are Charlie Parker.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    Unless you are Charlie Parker.
    I would say until there shows up Charlie Parker

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    On a blues tune would it be Dom 7?
    Blues doesn't count. In blues, everything has a flatted 7 lol!

  22. #46

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    Sometimes blues has the minor seventh, sometimes a 6th on the I chord. Parker liked to play major seventh a lot.

    the old swing blues scale is with a 6th

    1 2 b3 3 5 6 1

    b7s could be used too but it’s only when people started to add major sevenths or voicings that blues chords and major chords became more difficult to reconcile.

    b7 on all the chords in a blues is more like a Blue note era vibe

  23. #47

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    At the end of the day, I use the Roman numeral method to talk about changes in general, but even that is kind of limited if there is a lot, or even some, modulation in a given piece.

    I use standard chord symbols. "Standard" is a bit of a joke in jazz since, however. The great thing about standards is that eveyone can have their own.

    So I wilil probably still write Cmaj7 C#dim7 Dm7 G7, even though I know deep down that the second chord is actually VI7b9 with no root.. first inversion... or ... whatever.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by doc w
    Blues doesn't count. In blues, everything has a flatted 7 lol!
    Not everything:

    diminished seventh chords
    major seventh and six nine chords
    augmented (no seventh) chords
    minor major seventh chords

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Not everything:

    diminished seventh chords
    major seventh and six nine chords
    augmented (no seventh) chords
    minor major seventh chords
    Lightning Hopkins never heard of that stuff!

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by doc w
    ...Take this very common sequence:

    Cmaj7 C#dim7 Dmin7 G7

    Now if we abstract it a little from any particular key, the last two chords are ii7 and V7, the first chord is I7.

    But what does one call that little dim7 passing chord in-between?
    I ... use it as VI, name it "3rd of VI" dim.