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  1. #1

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    I'm compiling a list of common ways to go to the diatonic tonal centres, namely I, IIIm, VIm, IV, IIm.

    I'm only considering two chords (plus the destination chord). So if the complete cadence typically has more, I leave out its beginning (i.e. for III7-VI7-II7-V7-I, only II7-V7-I is considered). That's good enough to capture typical subdominant-dominant-tonic movements, so I'm leaving it there for now.

    The intention is to capture common constructs as opposed to considering every possible one.

    For each entry on the list, I include notes (e.g. a tune where I've found the sequence, the idea behind including it, etc... anything that helps me remember why I included it).

    I'm sure it's a poor list because the list of tunes I've learnt so far is still very small, also I don't have solid knowledge, so I'm sort of poking around in fog.

    Would you like to contribute to it or comment? :-)

    Cheers,

    Alex

    Code:
    Dm7	G7	C   	Major II-V-I
    D7	G7	C	Sears Roebuck turnaround
                            Ragtime progression
    Ab	G7	C	Gershwin turnaround
    D7	Db7	C	Sears Roebuck turnaround with tritone sub
                            Ragtime progression with tritone sub
                            (Wikipedia[1], I'm Beginning to See the Light bridge)
    Ab	Db7	C	Tadd Dameron turnaround
    Dø	G7b9	C	Minor II-V to major I
    F	Fm	C	IV-IVm-I
    F	Bb7	C	Backdoor cadence (simple form)
    Fm7	Bb7	C	Backdoor cadence (II-V form)
    F	Fm	Em7	IV-IVm-IIIm7 (All of Me)
    F	Bb7	Em7	Backdoor cadence (simple form)
    Fm7	Bb7	Em7	Backdoor cadence (II-V form)
    Gm7	C7	F	Major II-V-I
    G7	C7	F	Ragtime progression shifted to IV
    Bø	E7b9	Am	Minor II-V-I
    G7	E7b9	Am	Minor II-V-I
                            (like Bye Bye Blackbird's to IIm but shifted to VIm)
    F7	E7b9	Am	Minor blues turnaround
    Bø	Bb7	Am	Minor II-V-I with tritone sub
    Em7	A7	Dm7	Diatonic II-V-I
                            Circle turnaround
    Am7	D7	Dm7	Montgomery-Ward turnaround
    Am7	D#o7	Dm7	Alternative II7-IIm (Bye Bye Blackbird)
    Eø	A7b9	Dm	Minor II-V-I
    C7	A7b9	Dm	Minor II-V-I (Bye Bye Blackbird)
    E7b9	A7b9	Dm	Alternative minor II-V-I (All of Me)
    Bb7	A7b9	Dm	Alternative minor II-V-I with tritone sub
    
    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnaround_(music)

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Fantastic, thanks for this. Very useful for me. Cheers, Simon

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by jockster View Post
    Fantastic, thanks for this. Very useful for me. Cheers, Simon
    Hey, Simon, glad you liked it. Hopefully I can improve with input from people here. Like I said, I'm not knowledgeable.

  5. #4

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    Yea... start bye using ... Diatonic Subs.

    In your chart make it more like a Matrix,

    in your example... any tonic chord.... Cmaj, A- and E- , any dominant chord going to Cmaj can also go to A-.
    The A- becomes a Diatonic Sub of Cmaj... same with E-.

    You can also play the Relative an Parallel sub. game.

    Then expand that Borrowing concept with Modal Interchange and you have a lot more possibilities...

    If you then expand same way using the two chord patterns resolving to a Target... use same approach with the other chord also.

  6. #5

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    Thanks

    I aim to capture the most common ones, not expand the whole concept to include endless possibilities.

    So, if any of the entries is possible but not so relevant, delete it.

    If one as common as the ones already listed is missing, add it.

    I'm currently using them in a set of practice drills and it doesn't work if I change the size of the list a lot.

  7. #6

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    Hey Alez... Sorry, there all used. Are you using for melodic or comping practice, or both.

    Examples like .... F F-7 E-7 , All of Me....where the E-7 isn't really a tonal target, it's part of a standard Chord Pattern, where the E-7 or E-7b5 isn't really functioning as Tonal Target, it's part of movement, (Function), to a Different Tonal Target the Cmaj. The same chord can have different Function.... depending on context.
    The E- isn't really functioning like a Diatonic Target.... in that example it's becoming more of a transitional Function, part of a bigger Chord pattern. Even in isolation, is really functioning more in a Sub-Dominant role. It's really the related II- of ( II V ) of II-7 or D-7. Or just a Passing Chord.

    You could use modal applications and call the E-7 a Tonic.... not really used much in recent years. Phrygian is more common as sus7b9 deceptive Dominant function chord.

    Anyway... A great way to practice is to create longer patterns.../ D-7 G7 / Cmaj / D-7 D7 / Cma. /

    ex1
    X 5 3 5 3 X lead note D (D-7)
    3 X 3 4 5 X lead note E (G13)
    X 3 2 2 3 3 lead note G (C69)

    ex2
    X 5 3 5 6 X lead note F (D-7)
    X X 3 4 4 6 lead note Bb (Db13 or G7alt)
    X 3 2 2 3 3 lead note G (C69)

    ex1 again

    ex3
    X 5 3 5 5 5 lead note A (D-9)
    X X 2 4 4 6 lead note Bb (Db13 or G7alt)
    X X 5 5 5 7 lead note B (Cma7)

    You practice melodically or Comping... develop the lead line melodically (as you get better you can also add more chords with lead notes that become Lead lines... melodies on top of Chords.
    The point is your working on Both Harmonic and melodic concepts together.

    Eventually becomes better ways of hearing...

    Sorry to post so much... but it's much easier and better to start...

  8. #7

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    I like
    Db/G B/G Cmaj7

  9. #8

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    Don’t forget the old school Basie style progs. They aren’t really cadences per se but they get you from A to B

    Dm7 D#o7 Em7
    F7 F#o7 C/G
    (F6 F#o7 C6 is particularly smooth)

    Good sounding cadences have lots of stepwise motion - preferably semitones, some common tones and a lot of contrary motion.

  10. #9

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    By the way I tend to organise progressions into cadences and turnarounds.

    - cadences finish with a tonic function (I, iii, etc)
    - turnarounds finish with a non-tonic function, usually dominant.

    I find that helpful for subs etc

  11. #10

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    Hey Alez... Sorry, there all used. Are you using for melodic or comping practice, or both.
    Melodic. Outlining harmony by playing inside. I'm a trumpet player. This being a guitar forum, I really should clarify this more often to avoid you guys giving me information that I can't really use. I'm sorry. This forum just happens to be the best jazz forum out there AFAIK, not just an excellent jazz guitar forum.

    Examples like .... F F-7 E-7 , All of Me....where the E-7 isn't really a tonal target, it's part of a standard Chord Pattern, where the E-7 or E-7b5 isn't really functioning as Tonal Target, it's part of movement, (Function), to a Different Tonal Target the Cmaj. The same chord can have different Function.... depending on context.
    The E- isn't really functioning like a Diatonic Target.... in that example it's becoming more of a transitional Function, part of a bigger Chord pattern. Even in isolation, is really functioning more in a Sub-Dominant role. It's really the related II- of ( II V ) of II-7 or D-7. Or just a Passing Chord.
    But if you think about it, is the very same thing not also true for Dm7 in the key of C?

    You could use modal applications and call the E-7 a Tonic.... not really used much in recent years. Phrygian is more common as sus7b9 deceptive Dominant function chord.
    I see. Probably not what I'm targeting these days anyway.

    You practice melodically or Comping... develop the lead line melodically (as you get better you can also add more chords with lead notes that become Lead lines... melodies on top of Chords.
    The point is your working on Both Harmonic and melodic concepts together.

    Eventually becomes better ways of hearing...
    This is exactly what I'm trying to do. Glad to see it described accurately.

    Sorry to post so much... but it's much easier and better to start...
    I really, really apreciate your help. Thanks.

    Don’t forget the old school Basie style progs. They aren’t really cadences per se but they get you from A to B
    Hey, nice, thanks. That's the sort of sequence I'm looking for, not just cadences in the strict sense.

    Dm7 D#o7 Em7
    F7 F#o7 C/G
    (F6 F#o7 C6 is particularly smooth)

    Good sounding cadences have lots of stepwise motion - preferably semitones, some common tones and a lot of contrary motion.
    I had seen F7 F#o7 C7 in blues before... never seen F#o7 anywhere else so far, although I've read mentions that it's used to get back to C.

    By the way I tend to organise progressions into cadences and turnarounds.

    - cadences finish with a tonic function (I, iii, etc)
    - turnarounds finish with a non-tonic function, usually dominant.

    I find that helpful for subs etc
    Not sure how that works. Are not those cadences turnarounds with a C added? Or the turnarounds cadences with a C missing?

    Thanks!!
    Last edited by alez; 06-29-2020 at 07:01 AM.

  12. #11

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    Is it one I'd like to add? Give me it in context: tunes that use it.
    Naima

    I had seen F7 F#o7 C7 in blues before... never seen F#o7 anywhere else so far, although I've read mentions that it's used to get back to C.
    It does come up, especially in older tunes. You'll spot it! It also pops up in some versions of rhythm changes.

    Not sure how that works. Are not those cadences turnarounds with a C added? Or the turnarounds cadences with a C missing?

    Thanks!!
    Turnaround
    C | Dm7 G7 |

    Cadence
    Dm7 G7 | C

    Within the context of a tune, you can divide a 32 bar song form into phrases of 2 bars, so the distinction is not meaningless. Odd number bars are structurally stronger than even.

    For instance, Rhythm Changes

    Bb | Cm7 F7 | Bb | Cm7 F7 |
    Bb7 | Eb Eo7 | Bb | Cm F7 |

    Is four turnarounds
    OTOH

    Cm7 F7 | Bb | Cm7 F7 | Bb |
    Eb7 Eo7 | Bb | Cm7 F7 | Bb |
    Is four cadences

    (HOWEVER when we solo, we might choose to see the first prog as four cadences starting on the bar before the 1st bar, but that's another issue.)

    EDIT: Fixed the mistake
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-30-2020 at 06:25 PM.

  13. #12

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    This is enlightening. It hasn't been until recently that I started looking systematically at the position (measure number) where a given harmony thing takes place. I realised a lot by doing it.

  14. #13

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    Speaking of which, I experienced some of that today as I payed There Will Never Be Another You as it resolves in bar number 32.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    For instance, Rhythm Changes

    Bb | Cm7 F7 | Bb | Cm7 F7 |
    Bb7 | Eb Eo7 | Bb | Cm F7 |

    Is four cadences.

    OTOH

    Cm7 F7 | Bb | Cm7 F7 | Bb |
    Eb7 Eo7 | Bb | Cm7 F7 | Bb |
    Is four turnarounds
    .)
    sorry to doubt you ....
    should that be the other way round ?

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    sorry to doubt you ....
    should that be the other way round ?
    YES

    shuddup

    just testing


    (I wasn't really testing)

  17. #16

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    Great thread!
    A longer one I like is
    F-F#o7/C7-B7-Bb7-A7/Dm7-G7/C

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael1968 View Post
    Great thread!
    A longer one I like is
    F-F#o7/C7-B7-Bb7-A7/Dm7-G7/C
    Wow, long indeed. Also B7 is a chord I don't see often at all. Any songs you can think of use it?

  19. #18

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    Well it’s a passing chord. Think Dixieland

  20. #19

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    Exactly.
    Think of it as F-F#o7/C7-A7/... It´s in fact a progression IV-I in it´s whole.

    In my example its a triplet rundown from C7 to A7,
    C7 B7 Bb7
    tri pe let

    I use it in the intro to After you´ve gone, where it is in Bb-major.

  21. #20

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    Don't see Charlie Parker common arpeggio Dm7 - B7 - C. The B7 is a nice sub for C dim 7th.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmuller View Post
    Don't see Charlie Parker common arpeggio Dm7 - B7 - C. The B7 is a nice sub for C dim 7th.
    Or Dm - E7 - C (usually expressed as Dm7-G13b9-Cmaj7). It's the major equivalent of a regular ii-V-i in the relative minor key: Bm7b5 - E7b9 - Am7.

    Speaking of Parker, I
    'm convinced that many of his phrases were designed for maximum harmonic variation. As Reg suggests, working with harmonic and melodic devices in tandem can be a really useful way to hear and internalise progressions and discover their commonality. For instance, the following line from a Bird Storyville performance (transposed up a 4th and with the last two notes added to his original for resolution purposes) fits perfectly over either of the major or relative minor cadences outlined above. It also works for a iii-biii progression that descends into a regular major ii-V-I situated a tone lower, e.g. Dm7 - Dbm7 - Cm7 - F7 - Bbmaj7 or even a 'simple' form backdoor cadence as listed in
    the initial post:

    List of cadences to diatonic centres-ii-v-i-parker-line-jpeg