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  1. #1

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    Hi all,

    First post here. I’ve played for a long time but never really gone too deep into Jazz, always loved the style and sounds that come from it. Now is the time!

    Im looking for some help with chord shapes and finger positions for major chords with b5’s and b9’s and #5‘s and #9’s. Any suggestions would be really appreciated!

    Thanks in advance, it’s appreciated!

    Andy

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Name some specific chord qualities.
    Too many variables to respond to at once.

  4. #3

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    Must be some in here somewhere:

    Jazz Guitar Chords

  5. #4

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    There is no such thing as a major chord with a -9. The reason is that the root is a C, the major is a B and the -9 is a Db. Those are three chromatic notes in a row, so you do not have a scale from which to build chords.

    The major chord with a +9 is possible if you scale has a +2 and a +4.

  6. #5

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    Hijaz Kar

    C Db E F G Ab B

    cool scale, no?

    Two hijaz tetrachorda stuck together

    There's ALWAYS a scale..

  7. #6

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    Or you can make your own chords. Take a C maj at any position and simply alter it accordingly.

    So open C major: x32010

    Change the fingering to CM7: x32000 or just x3200x

    Sharp the 5: x3210x

    Or a C69: x3223x

    Sharp the 9: x3224x

    There's nothing to stop you using a b9 if that's the sound you want: x3222x

    Or make it a CM7b9: x3242x

    And so on anywhere on the neck. This is CM7#5: 8x999x

    You don't always need to include the root. Nor do you have to keep all the notes next to each other. Nor do you have to play every note, just ones you think work.

    CM9#11: 8x977x

    Make it a CM7#9#11 (it's a lovely chord): 8x987x

    Or remove the root and put in a b9 on top: xx9879

    Or play the root with your thumb: 8x9879

    Anything you want. Play with it, keep the stuff you like.

  8. #7
    Thanks to everyone for the reply.

    The specific chords I was looking for at this stage are C#5b9 and Cb5b9 however, once I had the chord shapes for these in root 5 and 6 positions (to start) I was hoping that they would be relatively straight forward to transpose across the neck.

    Thanks again for the responses so far, really good info! If anyone has any thoughts on these specific shapes above I'd really appreciate it!

    Thanks,

    Andy

  9. #8

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    I was assuming the OP actually meant dominant chords. But who knows.

  10. #9

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    welcome to one of the best guitar/music forums..it goes beyond just jazz style..

    some very talented players here that share their knowledge .. (and opinions..of music and more!)

    ask any and all..and if you get feedback that you dont quite understand...not to worry..your in good company

  11. #10

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    Wolfen warned you. From the school of too much information:

    4 note structures can be ordered 24 ways

    C#5b9 (no 7th) or DbmMa7 or C+/Db

    C Db E G#
    C Db G# E
    C E Db G#
    C E G# Db
    C G# Db E
    C G# E Db
    Db C E G#
    Db C G# E
    Db E C G#
    Db E G# C
    Db G# C E
    Db G# E C
    E C Db G#
    E C G# Db
    E Db C G#
    E Db G# C
    E G# C Db
    E G# Db C
    G# C Db E
    G# C E Db
    G# Db C E
    G# Db E C
    G# E C Db
    G# E Db C

    Cb5b9
    (no 7th) or Gb7#11(no 3rd)

    C Db E Gb
    C Db Gb E
    C E Db Gb
    C E Gb Db
    C Gb Db E
    C Gb E Db
    Db C E Gb
    Db C Gb E
    Db E C Gb
    Db E Gb C
    Db Gb C E
    Db Gb E C
    E C Db Gb
    E C Gb Db
    E Db C Gb
    E Db Gb C
    E Gb C Db
    E Gb Db C
    Gb C Db E
    Gb C E Db
    Gb Db C E
    Gb Db E C
    Gb E C Db
    Gb E Db C

    Now some of this is not playable. Others becomes possible if some notes are displaced an octave while maintaining the order. Then there is the question of function. Simple chords like triads maintain general function pretty well regardless of note order. Cannot say the same for these. If so inclined, try some of this out. Discard all that which doesn't serve your musical purpose. Perhaps a few useful ones lurking within.

  12. #11

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    Is it too late to write something?

    1. b5 chords -- take your favourite chord and flatten the 5.
    2. b9 chords -- take you favourite chord and replace the root with the b9. Leave the root for the bassist.
    3. b5/b9 chords -- do both.

    Example. Drop 2 grips

    G7

    xx3433
    xx5767
    xx9.10.8.10
    xx.12.12.12.13

    G7b5

    xx3423
    xx5667
    xx9.10.8.9
    xx.11.12.12.13

    G7b9

    xx3434
    xx6767
    xx9.10.9.10
    xx.12.13.12.13

    G7b5b9

    xx3424
    xx6667
    xx9.10.9.9
    xx.11.13.12.13

    You many have noticed something intersting about the 7b9 chords and the 7b5b9 chords.

  13. #12

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    this is more simply a min11 over a pedal a half step below, so CMaj7 -5 -9 = C#-11/ C. Or C C# E B F#

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy79
    Hi all,

    First post here. I’ve played for a long time but never really gone too deep into Jazz, always loved the style and sounds that come from it. Now is the time!

    Im looking for some help with chord shapes and finger positions for major chords with b5’s and b9’s and #5‘s and #9’s. Any suggestions would be really appreciated!

    Thanks in advance, it’s appreciated!

    Andy
    OK can I back up here and ask what tune it was where you came across those chords?

  15. #14

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    for the MAJOR chords with a b5..check fingerings for Maj7#11 chords..that may work for you..

    here is a Ma7b5 / Ma7 b5#9 (no root)

    EMA7b5

    E Bb D# G# frets ( 7 8 8 9)

    EMA7b5#9

    E Bb D# G frets (7888 )

    with altered major( 7 9 11 13) chords ..in some cases these are the result of voice leading and are in the context of a progression
    so the chords (melody notes etc) that come before and or after may be the reason for them being altered..

    the Major7 #5 #9 ..it could be something like this

    a C major 7th chord

    C E G B = AbMA7#5#9 (no root)
    3 #5 7 #9

    try some augmented scales over this kind of thinking ( C Eb E G Gb B)
    Last edited by wolflen; 06-09-2020 at 04:04 PM.

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OK can I back up here and ask what tune it was where you came across those chords?
    I was just looking back on bits from my RGT grades, not a specific song as such, these chords appeared in many of the chord progressions.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Exactly, does he really mean dominant chords with b5 and b9? Otherwise forget it as far as most jazz goes.
    No, the chords i’m after are definitely not dominant chords. I take it chords like this are not necessarily what you’d find in songs etc?

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy79
    No, the chords i’m after are definitely not dominant chords. I take it chords like this are not necessarily what you’d find in songs etc?
    Why don't you have a look at some songs you want to learn and draw your own conclusions? And then anything specific that's confusing we can cover.

    Theory is irrelevant in isolation.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy79
    No, the chords i’m after are definitely not dominant chords. I take it chords like this are not necessarily what you’d find in songs etc?
    Precisely, so why waste your time with them? I assume from your original post (‘now’s the time!’) that you want to explore jazz properly.
    If so you should explore altered dominant chords (i.e. those with b5, #5, b9, #9) as they are really important in most jazz.

    But maybe you have a good reason for wanting to know the major chords you describe? If so it would help us to understand that.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy79
    I was just looking back on bits from my RGT grades, not a specific song as such, these chords appeared in many of the chord progressions.
    and how useful were they?

    I looked up the RGT (registry of guitar tutors RGT@LCM Acoustic Guitar Graded Exams from London College of Music ), I am a bit baffled as to why they would issue course materials containing progressions that rarely exist in practice (although I suppose someone like Allan Holdsworth might use them!).
    Last edited by grahambop; 06-10-2020 at 05:54 AM.

  21. #20

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    By the way, of those major chords, the only one I have found useful is the major b5 (usually given as maj7 #11), it occurs in Wayne Shorter and Joe Henderson tunes. Occasionally I use it as a sub for a regular major chord in standards, but doesn’t always sound right, use with discretion!

    I came across the maj7 #5 the other day when we were looking at the Wayne Shorter tune Iris, I don’t think I have ever used it before then.

  22. #21

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    Most common altered major sevenths

    • maj7#11 everywhere
    • maj7#5 - pretty common actually, especially in Wayne Shorter tunes and Holdsworth etc. I call this the exotic major... pretty common in post functional music.
    • maj7#9 - Speak no Evil - end of the B section. Also a lot of maj7's in bII and bVI positions within the scale can take this alteration:

  23. #22

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    Re last two posts: we can often take the IV chord as a Maj7#11. It's diatonic to the key so it doesn't even sound exotic. Example:


  24. #23
    Thanks again everyone for the input.

    Just to clarify, I’m new to jazz as a genre, but it really interests me both from a guitarists point of view and also in terms of the musicality of it all.

    My only real experience to date has been from the chord shapes from with the RGT syllabus, they do cover dominant chords with b5/b9’s and #5/#9 along with minor variants etc.

    My starting point was to work with these shapes, I’m not knowledgeable enough at this stage to identify if they are commonly used, useful, pointless etc.....it’s just a starting point.

    The chords you mention which should probably be my priority to begin I am (....within reason! ?) happy with regards starting positions and chord shapes.

    My main reason for asking about these Major chords with b5/b7 and # variations was that ironically, there were no suggested fingerings for these chord shapes in the syllabuses and although I able to break down the notes and find my own shapes, I was looking for suggestions.

    I’ve been looking at some of the suggestions provided and they have been really helpful, big thanks everyone!

    I suppose the next step is to look at some songs and start to see how songs are structured and the chords are utilised.

    Cheers all, it’s appreciated!

  25. #24

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    Lately, I'm not into playing tunes so much as learning weird sounding chords, guitar is so cliche and it mostly sounds so last century. Diatonic triads are just too corny.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy79
    Thanks again everyone for the input.

    Just to clarify, I’m new to jazz as a genre, but it really interests me both from a guitarists point of view and also in terms of the musicality of it all.

    My only real experience to date has been from the chord shapes from with the RGT syllabus, they do cover dominant chords with b5/b9’s and #5/#9 along with minor variants etc.

    My starting point was to work with these shapes, I’m not knowledgeable enough at this stage to identify if they are commonly used, useful, pointless etc.....it’s just a starting point.

    The chords you mention which should probably be my priority to begin I am (....within reason! ?) happy with regards starting positions and chord shapes.

    My main reason for asking about these Major chords with b5/b7 and # variations was that ironically, there were no suggested fingerings for these chord shapes in the syllabuses and although I able to break down the notes and find my own shapes, I was looking for suggestions.

    I’ve been looking at some of the suggestions provided and they have been really helpful, big thanks everyone!

    I suppose the next step is to look at some songs and start to see how songs are structured and the chords are utilised.

    Cheers all, it’s appreciated!
    Yeah everyone gets into the woods with theory in jazz before they start. It’s the bane of my life as a jazz guitar teacher, but i see it as basically I get paid to deprogram people.

    ’listen to the music and learn it by ear.’

    so start with songs, good idea. There’s obviously a list of basic tunes everyone learns but I’d rather students concentrate on learning tunes they like. However jazz musicians usually play lots of standards so that makes it easier.

    In terms of chords that obviously harder to do by ear, so charts are fine for a bit. OTOH be aware that often the chords in charts like iReal represent one version of the harmony (and sometimes are just inaccurate.)

    So if you can list ten tunes you like from your favourite jazz artists that’s a good start. Obviously some are going to be easier to learn than others.

  27. #26

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    I like Randy Vincent’s the guitarist’s introduction to jazz. Very well thought out book. Zero BS.

    I talk a little bit about why here;

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Hijaz Kar

    C Db E F G Ab B

    cool scale, no?

    Two hijaz tetrachorda stuck together

    There's ALWAYS a scale..
    That scale has three chromatic tones, so it’s not going to work for building harmonies.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  29. #28

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    That scale has three chromatic tones, so it’s not going to work for building harmonies.
    True, the common scales don't contain 3 consecutive half steps but
    all scales have notes, notes form intervals, intervals
    are the building blocks of chords.

    C Db E F G Ab B

    CEGB ......... Cma7
    DbFAbC ..... Dbma7
    EGBDb ....... Em6
    FAbCE ........ FmMa7
    GBDbF ....... G7b5
    AbCEG ....... Abma7+
    BDbFAb ...... Db7

    That said, the culture that this scale derives from is primarily focused on the melodic content.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    True, the common scales don't contain 3 consecutive half steps but
    all scales have notes, notes form intervals, intervals
    are the building blocks of chords.

    C Db E F G Ab B

    CEGB ......... Cma7
    DbFAbC ..... Dbma7
    EGBDb ....... Em6
    FAbCE ........ FmMa7
    GBDbF ....... G7b5
    AbCEG ....... Abma7+
    BDbFAb ...... Db7

    That said, the culture that this scale derives from is primarily focused on the melodic content.
    and more....
    Emi6=A9=C#mi7b5=Eb7b9#5

    C E G# =C aug..Eaug Abaug

    realizing that "chords" can be constructed with any scale...they may NOT be harmonized..practical or sound very good (can be in context..)..but they are still chords..
    and melodic possibilities are there for the taking..as with all "scales"

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsaras
    That scale has three chromatic tones, so it’s not going to work for building harmonies.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Why not? What's wrong with three consecutive semitones?

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Why not? What's wrong with three consecutive semitones?
    Write a ninth chord on the 1 chord. The -9 with the major 7 gives you three chromatics. It’s a sure path to unemployment. A -9 interval works fine with a -7 in the structure.

    Also when you get to the vii chord, the 9th is a repeat of the root.


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  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsaras
    Write a ninth chord on the 1 chord. The -9 with the major 7 gives you three chromatics. It’s a sure path to unemployment. A -9 interval works fine with a -7 in the structure.

    Also when you get to the vii chord, the 9th is a repeat of the root.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    unemployment...ahhh..not so fast..in fact there is enough harmonic material in this scale to create some interesting progressions...and melodic lines..
    hell..you might even get a two week gig at the local dive ...(I still love those dark smoky places !)

    lets add some more harmonic possibilities from the Bako reply..

    CMA7 = Eb13b9#5=(no rt) = AbMa7#5#9

    DbMA7=E13b9#5=AMA7#5#9

    G7b5=Db7b5

    so now we have several more harmonic possible harmonic directions..using just the notes from the scale...

    Im sure Bako could create a nice progression from all this

    and yes I realize the non functional nature of the "harmonized" structure...but using what is available..in a non functional way..there are some possibilities

    Scott Henderson and Ben Monder would have fun with this kind of stuff

  34. #33

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  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsaras
    Write a ninth chord on the 1 chord. The -9 with the major 7 gives you three chromatics. It’s a sure path to unemployment. A -9 interval works fine with a -7 in the structure.

    Also when you get to the vii chord, the 9th is a repeat of the root.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Some people think in a very closed way and have a very fixed aesthetic. Which is fine, most of the work out there is reproducing this or that thing that's familiarly to people. But that's not a reason not to explore a sound.

    OTOH unemployment as a musician is less of a concern when no one has any gigs.

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Some people think in a very closed way and have a very fixed aesthetic. Which is fine, most of the work out there is reproducing this or that thing that's familiarly to people. But that's not a reason not to explore a sound.

    OTOH unemployment as a musician is less of a concern when no one has any gigs.
    One can use any collection of intervals to form vertical structures, but that does not render those horizontal intervals a suitable scale upon which to build progressions. If you have the compositional technique, you can use all 12 notes vertically and not have any dissonances. That said, the issue with a vertical structure that has a -9 and a natural 7 is that it breaks the overtone series. A -3 and a -9 also break the overtone series. But if you want to prove me wrong, write a progression with those structures and see what it produces.


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  37. #36

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    Well it would not be a traditional tonal progression.

    Overtone sequence - important for voicings, not as important for harmonic progressions as its sometimes held up to be.