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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Maybe that's what Carthy had in mind when he came up with the Scarborough Fair arrangement? It seems more likely, I'm not sure if he was terribly interested in jazz.
    Martin Carthy, along with John Renbourn and so many other folk guitarists in the early '60s was a big Davey Graham fan and Davey drew a lot of his repertoire from jazz pianists - Monk, Tristano, Timmons etc. Having had a couple of long conversations with MC, I know he has very eclectic tastes. When an interviewer asked in the early '90s what impressed him most out out of everything that he'd listened to recently, Martin replied' "Buddy Guy's, Damn Right, I Got The Blues"!

    Someone mentioned Indian classical music as part of that mix and all those guys were familiar with Ravi Shankar long before George Harrison spread the word. In fact, Martin probably heard and saw Shankar before any other of his contemporaries. He attended Ravi's first recital in Britain at the Royal Festival Hall back in 1958 while still a schoolboy!
    Last edited by PMB; 05-21-2020 at 07:20 PM.

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Haha that sounds about right...

    Well certainly when I was getting into Machaut, the Lady and the Unicorn piqued my interest because I already knew of Renbourn. He was influenced by David Munrow, which was the first performances of that music I heard. Sad I never got to meet him.

    Munrow had a real vibey, almost jazz approach to that music. Of course, scholarship has moved on (inevitably) but those recordings still work as music. Big influence on me. I definitely think that was an influence on Robert Sadin's Machaut project years later (featuring Lionel Loueke, Brad Mehldau and others... Sadin also produced Wayne Shorter's Alegria...)
    I had a great music library near me where I grew up and remember discovering Machaut's Messe de Notre Dame, Munrow's Art of Courtly Love and Boulez's Pli Selon Pli on the same day! My girlfriend at the time (mid '70s) had an excellent vinyl box set, Electric Muse that was an overview of the whole British folk scene and it hipped me to all the players mentioned in this thread:

    Musing about the Folk/Modal Jazz connection-r-1884922-1259049908-jpeg-jpg

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Martin Carthy, along with John Renbourn and so many other folk guitarists in the early '60s was a big Davey Graham fan and Davey drew a lot of his repertoire from jazz pianists - Monk, Tristano, Timmons etc. Having had a couple of long conversations with MC, I know he has very eclectic tastes. When an interviewer asked in the early '90s what impressed him most out out of everything that he'd listened to recently, Martin replied' "Buddy Guy's, Damn Right, I Got The Blues"!

    Someone mentioned Indian classical music as part of that mix and all those guys were familiar with Ravi Shankar long before George Harrison spread the word. In fact, Martin probably heard and saw Shankar before any other of his contemporaries. He attended Ravi's first recital in Britain at the Royal Festival Hall back in 1958 while still a schoolboy!
    Synchonicity is a strange thing. A neighbour up a few doors is a good acoustic guitar player... what should he start playing today but... Angie! Of course :-)

    cool, That's great I don't know much about Carthy's taste, he seemed like a very 'legit' figure somehow. It seems that as a rule these great folk musicians were and are super open minded. Perhaps us jazzers could learn a lesson :-)

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It seems that as a rule these great folk musicians were and are super open minded. Perhaps us jazzers could learn a lesson :-)
    Jazzers are plenty open minded, it's seems to be more a jazz GUITARIST problem.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Martin Carthy, along with John Renbourn and so many other folk guitarists in the early '60s was a big Davey Graham fan and Davey drew a lot of his repertoire from jazz pianists - Monk, Tristano, Timmons etc. Having had a couple of long conversations with MC, I know he has very eclectic tastes. When an interviewer asked in the early '90s what impressed him most out out of everything that he'd listened to recently, Martin replied' "Buddy Guy's, Damn Right, I Got The Blues"!

    Someone mentioned Indian classical music as part of that mix and all those guys were familiar with Ravi Shankar long before George Harrison spread the word. In fact, Martin probably heard and saw Shankar before any other of his contemporaries. He attended Ravi's first recital in Britain at the Royal Festival Hall back in 1958 while still a schoolboy!
    A lot of those guys were into Mingus too, e.g. there are cover versions by Renbourn, Bert Jansch and Davy Graham. Probably it was the blues/gospel influences that appealed to them.

    A lot of them (including Martin Carthy, surprisingly) got started on guitar after hearing Lonnie Donegan and skiffle, seems funny now.

  7. #56

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    Are there any Folk song progressions, that are similar to modern Modal songs in structure. Similar to using stacks of 4ths, vamps on a few chords, drones notes etc.

  8. #57

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    the usa had their own folk-jazz connection..via the great world pacific label...a 50's/60's LA record company that released jazz, world music (i.e. north indian classical, oud music etc) and folky stuff...the label owners managed the folk rock group-the byrds-..their hit 8 miles high was based on them listening to coltrane w dolphy (india) and ravi shankar in their tour van

    joe pass even had 12 string acoustic recordings!!

    in nyc folk and jazz were intermingled as well...bill lee the great jazz bassist and composer (spikes dad) is on tons of early folk music records and hits (dylan, gordon lightfoot, ian & sylvia etc etc)...billy higgins played with sandy bull on his pre-renbourn guitar fusion records...renbourn copped much of bulls methods...inc using trem guitar on classical pieces (lady and the unicorn lp)

    producer thom wilson who started in the jazz scene..verve etc..worked with lou reeds velvet underground and early zappa

    i never cared about namesake/genre barriers..it only separates rather than unites

    cheers

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    A lot of those guys were into Mingus too, e.g. there are cover versions by Renbourn, Bert Jansch and Davy Graham. Probably it was the blues/gospel influences that appealed to them.

    A lot of them (including Martin Carthy, surprisingly) got started on guitar after hearing Lonnie Donegan and skiffle, seems funny now.
    Mingus was a huge influence. Pentangle covered Haitian Fight Song, Better Git It In You Soul and Goodbye Pork Pie Hat. GPPH has been a particular fave outside the British folk scene as well - John McLaughlin, Jeff Beck and Andy Summers (who released a whole album of Mingus compositions) have all recorded versions of the tune.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Mingus was a huge influence. Pentangle covered Haitian Fight Song, Better Git It In You Soul and Goodbye Pork Pie Hat. GPPH has been a particular fave outside the British folk scene as well - John McLaughlin, Jeff Beck and Andy Summers (who released a whole album of Mingus compositions) have all recorded versions of the tune.
    mingus influence had already appeared for beck early on (spring 1966!)... on the classic yardbirds roger the engineer lp...yardbirds chris drejas cover sketches includes politician faubus caricature...which alludes to mingus' biting composition fables of faubus...with his great dolphy quartet on charles mingus presents charles mingus...

    lower left of lpMusing about the Folk/Modal Jazz connection-yardbirds_roger_b-jpg

    they were aware


    cheers

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    mingus influence had already appeared for beck early on (spring 1966!)... on the classic yardbirds roger the engineer lp...yardbirds chris drejas cover sketches includes politician faubus caricature...which alludes to mingus' biting composition fables of faubus...with his great dolphy quartet on charles mingus presents charles mingus...

    lower left of lpMusing about the Folk/Modal Jazz connection-yardbirds_roger_b-jpg

    they were aware


    cheers
    Every guitar player working in London around the mid-'60s was also aware of Davey Graham who had recorded the Mingus tune, Better Git It In Your Soul in 1964 (it appeared the next year as the final track on Graham's seminal Folk, Blues & Beyond album). That may have been the initial connection to Mingus for many of them. Of course, Beck's friend and fellow Yardbird, Jimmy Page was a DG devotee, 'borrowing' Davey's version of She Moved Though The Fair for his instrumental, White Summer.

  12. #61

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    I remember seeing Steve Winwood at Shoreline in the mid 80s. I loved his Arc of A Diver era and knew he had been in Traffic and Blind Faith but didn’t realize what an incredible keyboardist he was. He played a lot of Moog in that show, and it was mesmerizing every time he touched the keys.
    Last edited by lukmanohnz; 05-24-2020 at 01:05 AM.

  13. #62

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    for jazz fans..particularly more fusiony weather report era lovers..check out traffic-when the eagle flies-...a bit late in the traffic discography, but one of their best...(my fave along with john barleycorn)...you can clearly hear zawinul influence in winwoods playing, and rosko gee brings some great electric bass ala alphonso johnson, fernando saunders & jaco to the table...

    a winwood tour de force..keys (including mellotron!) and vocals...masterful

    Musing about the Folk/Modal Jazz connection-large-4853m7us2s93-jpg

    cheers

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    mingus influence had already appeared for beck early on (spring 1966!)... on the classic yardbirds roger the engineer lp...yardbirds chris drejas cover sketches includes politician faubus caricature...which alludes to mingus' biting composition fables of faubus...with his great dolphy quartet on charles mingus presents charles mingus...

    lower left of lpMusing about the Folk/Modal Jazz connection-yardbirds_roger_b-jpg




    cheers
    Page and Clapton weren't exactly thrilled with jazz, but Page took a few lessons from Johnny Mac. Clapton just plain hated jazz.

  15. #64

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    tho, jeff becks classic cover of mingus' requiem for lester young- goodbye pork pie hat- was mostly inspired by john mclaughlins cover..not the original mingus...it was the opening track of mclaughlins early lp-my goals beyond



    cheers

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Page and Clapton weren't exactly thrilled with jazz, but Page took a few lessons from Johnny Mac. Clapton just plain hated jazz.


    its a bit strange...Eric playing with Bruce & Baker..both considered jazz players,,,and Claptons extended solos with Cream..sure could have been influenced by some of Coltranes "sheets of sound"

    Progressive rock groups..(have trouble with that label..its pretty far away from rock in any manner) put a bit of restraint and disapline on that amazing wild energy...King Crimson and soft machine come to mind...

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Page and Clapton weren't exactly thrilled with jazz, but Page took a few lessons from Johnny Mac. Clapton just plain hated jazz.
    Not too sure where you got the idea that Clapton hated jazz. Here's an excerpt from a 2006 JazzTimes interview:

    In photos from 1964 with your first band of note, the Yardbirds, you wore a sharp suit with a skinny tie that strongly evoked the way the Modern Jazz Quartet used to look on their Atlantic Records album covers. Was your fashion sense at the time influenced by jazz?

    That was the idea then. My state of attire in those days was Ivy League, and I was a big jazz fan. And buying albums by Lee Morgan and John Coltrane, and seeing some of the album covers and the way those guys got dressed up on them was very powerful for me.

    Nathan East, your longtime bassist, has told me that you are a fan, as you just mentioned, of Coltrane and Morgan, as well as of Thelonious Monk. But you’ve rarely discussed the music’s impact on you, perhaps because no one’s asked. How do you feel jazz has shaped the music you make, directly or indirectly?

    Growing up, I was listening to them, blues and jazz, at the same time. I remember going into a record store in Richmond, outside London, and they only had blues and jazz, no pop records at all. So I’d be buying an acoustic blues album by John Lee Hooker, alongside albums by Monk or Clifford Brown. And, to me, listening to it, I couldn’t actually make any distinction between the two things. I had no real idea that there was supposed to be any division between the two things.

    And the way the music scene existed [in England]; people would play in the same clubs. Ronnie Scott’s [a jazz club in London] would have Rahsaan Roland Kirk one week, and then Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee the following week. So it seemed like the same tree to me, or, rather, it sounded like different branches on the same tree.

    Could you talk about the musical impact of jazz on your own playing? Obviously, you couldn’t run the changes the way Coltrane did on the saxophone. But how did hearing him influence what you did on guitar?

    I think just the atmosphere and the spontaneity, the creativity of it, was kind of what we drew from when we got onstage in Cream, [with] a lot of that free-form stuff, although it was still pretty limited in its tonality. And everything I was playing was only coming from the blues scale and moving out of blues and rock phrasing. But the atmosphere and intention was to try and escape [the confines of blues and rock]. And a lot of that came out of the listening I did to early Coltrane.



  18. #67

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    Clapton’s a big Kurt Rosenwinkel fan

  19. #68

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    Jimmy Page does talk about Django.... he said that he felt that Django was an electric player on acoustic, trying to play feedback sounds etc. I can dig it.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Clapton’s a big Kurt Rosenwinkel fan
    ...and Kurt recorded Self Portrait in Three Colours by Mingus for his new album, "Angels Around"!

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    In one book on British Jazz in the 60s I read, Stevie Winwood was actually perceived in the UK as being originally a jazz musician, who switched over to R&B and rock, when he joined The Spencer Davis Group. His father was a p/t jazz musician, and Winwood used to play piano, and his brother Muff played drums in clubs, when they were playing in their father's jazz band when they were still in their early teens....
    Thanks for the insight. I never knew much about Stevie Winwood's background. Loved Traffic. Great band. Their best stuff still sounds first rate.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Not too sure where you got the idea that Clapton hated jazz. Here's an excerpt from a 2006 JazzTimes interview:

    In photos from 1964 with your first band of note, the Yardbirds, you wore a sharp suit with a skinny tie that strongly evoked the way the Modern Jazz Quartet used to look on their Atlantic Records album covers. Was your fashion sense at the time influenced by jazz?

    That was the idea then. My state of attire in those days was Ivy League, and I was a big jazz fan. And buying albums by Lee Morgan and John Coltrane, and seeing some of the album covers and the way those guys got dressed up on them was very powerful for me.

    Nathan East, your longtime bassist, has told me that you are a fan, as you just mentioned, of Coltrane and Morgan, as well as of Thelonious Monk. But you’ve rarely discussed the music’s impact on you, perhaps because no one’s asked. How do you feel jazz has shaped the music you make, directly or indirectly?

    Growing up, I was listening to them, blues and jazz, at the same time. I remember going into a record store in Richmond, outside London, and they only had blues and jazz, no pop records at all. So I’d be buying an acoustic blues album by John Lee Hooker, alongside albums by Monk or Clifford Brown. And, to me, listening to it, I couldn’t actually make any distinction between the two things. I had no real idea that there was supposed to be any division between the two things.

    And the way the music scene existed [in England]; people would play in the same clubs. Ronnie Scott’s [a jazz club in London] would have Rahsaan Roland Kirk one week, and then Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee the following week. So it seemed like the same tree to me, or, rather, it sounded like different branches on the same tree.

    Could you talk about the musical impact of jazz on your own playing? Obviously, you couldn’t run the changes the way Coltrane did on the saxophone. But how did hearing him influence what you did on guitar?

    I think just the atmosphere and the spontaneity, the creativity of it, was kind of what we drew from when we got onstage in Cream, [with] a lot of that free-form stuff, although it was still pretty limited in its tonality. And everything I was playing was only coming from the blues scale and moving out of blues and rock phrasing. But the atmosphere and intention was to try and escape [the confines of blues and rock]. And a lot of that came out of the listening I did to early Coltrane.


    Cream lasted for only a year or two. Clapton broke it up because he hated that type of free-form stuff. He said it in this interview:
    “All during Cream I was riding high on the ‘Clapton is God’ myth that had been started up. I was flying high on an ego trip; I was sure I was the best thing happening that was popular. Then we got our first kind of bad review, which was in Rolling Stone. “The magazine ran an interview with us in which we were really praising ourselves, and it was followed by a review that said how boring and repetitious our performance had been. And it was true! The ring of truth had just knocked me backward; I was in a restaurant, and I fainted. And after I woke up, I immediately decided that that was the end of the band.”
    He looked upon jazz as boring BS that was just stroking the soloists ego. When you're interviewed by Jazz Times, I don't think he'd say what he really thinks about jazz. Listen to his unplugged version of "Layla" where he tries to play jazzy; it's pitiful!

  23. #72

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    Not sure I see how that follows. I don't see a contradiction.

    I'm a jazz musician, and I think Clapton is right. I love the album stuff, such great sounding records, crafted gems... but live .. it is repetitious.

    It's unquestionable that Clapton saw Cream as an artistic failure, because of what he did afterwards - total changes of direction. That doesn't mean that he didn't understand the idea of what they were trying to achieve, or perhaps realise that he didn't have the resources to (in his opinion) make it work, while at the same time appreciating those who did (such as Trane.)

    Needless to say, it's also possible to like some jazz and not all jazz. For example, I know plenty of people who like tight, swinging bop and Blue Note cuts and can't stand open modal vamps, and vice versa.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Not sure I see how that follows. I don't see a contradiction.

    I'm a jazz musician, and I think Clapton is right. I love the album stuff, such great sounding records, crafted gems... but live .. it is repetitious.

    It's unquestionable that Clapton saw Cream as an artistic failure, because of what he did afterwards - total changes of direction. That doesn't mean that he didn't understand the idea of what they were trying to achieve, or perhaps realise that he didn't have the resources to (in his opinion) make it work, while at the same time appreciating those who did (such as Trane.)

    Needless to say, it's also possible to like some jazz and not all jazz. For example, I know plenty of people who like tight, swinging bop and Blue Note cuts and can't stand open modal vamps, and vice versa.
    Clapton came out and said that jazz musicians are just wanking off when they improvise. He's a great blues player and songwriter, but he thinks jazz improvisation is garbage. He turned away from improvisational music of any kind, and started doing things like "Wonderful Tonight"
    If that's not enough, I'll bring up his speech supporting Enoch Powell...

  25. #74

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    Cream started out fine, the first few records. Good tunes, too. They quickly became the epitome of boring self-indulgence and anti-listening. Sort of inevitable with egos that size and all the 'perks' of sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll. Few can withstand that kind of hagiography w/o at least some damage.

    I'd like to go on record as saying I can't think of a more overrated musician than Ginger Baker. The same dynamic level all the time: bang or thud. Called himself a 'jazz drummer'. Not in a world with Vernell Fournier, who had a touch, and sensitivity. I don't care how different groups are, music is music---or ain't.

    Yeah, Rollins and Trane were self-indulgent---even selfish. But they had a lot to say to justify those long solos. And compared to an arena rock band like Cream? Are you kidding? Also, they should not be blamed for the excesses their less gifted apers, who didn't have the early discipline of playing short in the late 78 and early 33 RPM era---or, in many cases of fitting into a band, a section.These people are a large part of why jazz is shunned---and it's understandable.

    Clapton is cool. Greenie was my boy...
    Last edited by joelf; 05-24-2020 at 09:57 PM.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Clapton came out and said that jazz musicians are just wanking off when they improvise. He's a great blues player and songwriter, but he thinks jazz improvisation is garbage. He turned away from improvisational music of any kind, and started doing things like "Wonderful Tonight"
    If that's not enough, I'll bring up his speech supporting Enoch Powell...
    Yeah, I have relatively little respect for Clapton as a human, and as far as I’m aware he’s never apologised for his racist rant in the 70s.... I don’t know if this is well known stateside.

    otoh I’m not sure what relevance this has for Clapton’s like or dislike for jazz.... we can only really go on the things he said which appear contradictory. So, dunno.

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    Cream started out fine, the first few records. Good tunes, too. They quickly became the epitome of boring self-indulgence and anti-listening. Sort of inevitable with egos that size and all the 'perks' of sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll. Few can withstand that kind of hagiography w/o at least some damage.

    I'd like to go on record as saying I can't think of a more overrated musician than Ginger Baker. The same dynamic level all the time: bang or thud. Called himself a 'jazz drummer'. Not in a world with Vernell Fournier, who had a touch, and sensitivity. I don't care how different groups are, music is music---or ain't.


    Clapton is cool. Greenie was my boy...
    You haven't heard the trio records Baker did with Charlie Haden and Bill Frisell, I see. Or maybe it ain't music, right?

  28. #77

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    I heard enough, thanks...

  29. #78

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    c'mon...lighten up

    baker 'n blakey



    cheers

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    the Beatles have some tricks for sure, where they picked them up - harder to trace. I’m sure some people have the knowledge.
    I think that when you listen to the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, etc., we have to bear in mind that jazz was on the radio when these guys were growing up. All of those sounds were in their ears. In terms of song structures, etc., both the Beatles and the Stones made extensive use of something other than I-IV-V chords. In the case of Cream, both the bassist and drummer had played jazz professionally prior to forming that trio.

    So I think that in the 1960s and 1970s pop music was being written by people who still had some connection to the jazz tradition, even if only subconsciously. By the 1980s, 1990s and later pop songwriters probably had little if any connection to jazz. I think this explains the proliferation of songs with only one or two chords, no harmonic development, little or no melodic development. Or, in the case of some "music," essentially no melody or harmonic structure at all but only spoken and essentially drummed rhythms layered on top of each other. No doubt I am showing my age and limitations here- to me that is not music but instead harkens back to the Beat poetry tradition. Certainly a valid art form, but not music. Get off my lawn! What the hell do I know, Ron Carter plays with hip-hop groups at times.

  31. #80

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    At some point I would like to go through the Beatles stuff with this sort of thing in mind.

    Blackbird is for me the perfect example of how to evoke very classic if gospel tinged functional harmony using minimal notes (in this case intervals, mostly 10ths, over a drone)

    But they changed it up depending on what type of song they were writing. There’s faux Bossa nova, French chanson, Dylan pastiches, country songs, all sorts of stuff even before they got into the psychedelics...

    OTOH something like Tomorrow Never Knows is clearly the music of the future.

  32. #81

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    Shady Grove comes to mind as a traditional tune for dorian mode. It’s interesting because the melody is mostly Cmaj pentatonic or Amin pentatonic (same notes) but the tune has a D dorian tonality. The pentatonic scale of the melody leaves out the minor 3rd and 6th of D dorian, but I dorian works for improvising. I find it hard to resist using the whole chromatic scale to add chromatic approaches where I like, but then it doesn’t sound too authentic.


  33. #82

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    But the eighties and nineties had quite a few jazz tinted or, at the very least, very complex songwriting: Steely Dan, Peter Gabriel, Radiohead, Tears for Fears, The Police, David Bowie, Prefab Sprout, Bruce Hornsby, King Crimson (80s band with Adrian Belew), Stevie Wonder, Jamiroquai, Steve Vai, etc, just to name a very eclectic few. And then, there was the whole acid jazz movement... it seems like a reduction to say that it all went down harmonically from the sixties on.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    the Beatles have some tricks for sure, where they picked them up - harder to trace. I’m sure some people have the knowledge.
    I think Paul McCarney grew up listening to a lot of show tunes, tin pan alley, etc. Also Bach.

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by xavierbarcelo
    But the eighties and nineties had quite a few jazz tinted or, at the very least, very complex songwriting: Steely Dan, Peter Gabriel, Radiohead, Tears for Fears, The Police, David Bowie, Prefab Sprout, Bruce Hornsby, King Crimson (80s band with Adrian Belew), Stevie Wonder, Jamiroquai, Steve Vai, etc, just to name a very eclectic few. And then, there was the whole acid jazz movement... it seems like a reduction to say that it all went down harmonically from the sixties on.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    I quite enjoyed this



    Would be good if he sang the right notes though ;-)

    sorry what has this got to do with folk music again haha?

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    Good tune, well-rendered.

    Both those guys were/are cool. Good group, too, w/the right feel for this kind of thing...

  37. #86

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    So where does blues figure in all this? There's all kinds, including one or two-chord. And it's certainly connected, really a bridge between the 2 forms being discussed.

    Haven't seen it come up here. Why?

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    So where does blues figure in all this? There's all kinds, including one or two-chord. And it's certainly connected, really a bridge between the 2 forms being discussed.

    Haven't seen it come up here. Why?
    If we're talking British folk/modal, I believe Big Bill Broonzy had an enormous on most guitarists there after his first tour in 1951-2. The aforementioned John Renbourn once said, "I started out trying to play like Big Bill Broonzy and I'm still trying". Muddy Waters also left a big mark after his 1958 tour although many folkie/blues purists were initially shocked by the urban repertoire, sound and dress of his band.

    As for modal leanings via blues, that was probably more prevalent in the US after the early '60s Newport festivals and rediscovery of guys like Blind Willie Johnson and Skip James, individualists whose music was infused with hypnotic, harmonically static textures.

  39. #88

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    Good answer. Thanks.

    Anyone else?

  40. #89

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    What are the roots of blues? Is it not a fusion of African and Celtic/British or whatever you want to call it traditions? The white side of that fusion is old time/country and blues is the black side.


  41. #90

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    The blues features heavily on Kind of Blue? Two 12 bar tunes on one record?

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The blues features heavily on Kind of Blue? Two 12 bar tunes on one record?
    Sure.

    I'm thinking the more guy/gal-with-an-acoustic-and-beer-can. Stereotypical and one-dimensional though it be. I was a collector (and thought a blues player) in my teens. I remember the sweetness and purity of Mississippi John Hurt's Candy Man. I'm not one to hold back progress, and you can treat a thing all kinds of ways (and sometimes bring the wrath of the originators/writers). But songs like those ward off 'sophistication' b/c they stand on their own.

    The ones that hang on 1 chord a while are tempting to 'do up'. Even 2. Like what Gil Evans did with Leadbelly's Ella Speed. Or his own Jambangle, an orchestration of barrelhouse piano.

    Interesting about Miles's comment that he tried---and failed---'to get the sound of the African thumb-piano' with Kind of Blue. Shows where all these tributaries stream from.

    (Though Bill Evans had a lot to do with the sound and concept of that recording [and writing, uncredited, Blue in Green])...
    Last edited by joelf; 05-27-2020 at 01:37 PM.

  43. #92

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    Josh White has to be in the mix surely?


  44. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Josh White has to be in the mix surely?

    Josh White certainly made his presence felt in England among acoustic blues and folk players. He toured there regularly and Ivor Mairants put out an instructional songbook book containing the guitarist's tunes in the late '50s. It evidently sold so well that Framus even released a signature-model guitar. However, White didn't seem to make much of an impression upon English electric blues guitarists, especially the 'purists' who preferred grittier Chicago blues and found JW's act and presentation a little too polite and slick.

  45. #94

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    Several versions of a blues from the '20s, "See See Rider"












  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Josh White certainly made his presence felt in England among acoustic blues and folk players. He toured there regularly and Ivor Mairants put out an instructional songbook book containing the guitarist's tunes in the late '50s. It evidently sold so well that Framus even released a signature-model guitar. However, White didn't seem to make much of an impression upon English electric blues guitarists, especially the 'purists' who preferred grittier Chicago blues and found JW's act and presentation a little too polite and slick.
    Yeah, who cares about them though? :-)

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah, who cares about them though? :-)
    True, a bit OT but I think the resistance of someone like Eric Clapton to Josh White - "he was a bit of a showman who was used to playing white audiences and I was aware that he wasn't quite the full ticket" - indicates just how pervasive White's influence was in England at that time. For instance, that JW folk-blues instructional book from 1956 was arguably the first of its kind anywhere in the world and even included TAB! (called Spanish Cifra in the text). The guitar itself was still considered such a novelty that almost half the folio is filled with explanations of the instrument and its notational conventions.