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  1. #76

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    There's a difference between playing pulse and playing time.

    There's plenty of music where playing time is important.

    Jazz in the last 50 years ago is often more about pulse. So you're gonna have to be able to groove without someone necessarily keeping time...but it doesn't mean they're not locked in.

    Here's two versions of Angel Eyes, both with Jim Hall...the first version has a great rhythm section interacting, but also keeping time. The second is just as locked in, but they groove in a different way, much more conversational.




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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    So I have too many opinions about everything... and BS way too much. So here's a clip from a group that I started subbing for... The actual guy who I've known and performed with for years is bassist and not even on the gig... nothingville gig and players are new to Jazz etc... but I still have fun, I like to play. Anyway check out my comping, i lay down pretty standard chord patterns with standard melody or lead lines on top. Tried to develop some other ideas... didn't go anywhere... used a few extended montuno single harmonic lines... and for the bassist again standard harmonic rhythmic kicks to setup and accent form etc... We're loose but the overall shape is like jazz 101, which is about all we can pull off, It's The mando's gig, don't know the drumer, etc... (my improve is same old shit but at least I'm into playing, having fun etc... yea the harmonic counter melody thing is just more of me having fun... some of its cool.


  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    There's a difference between playing pulse and playing time.

    There's plenty of music where playing time is important.

    Jazz in the last 50 years ago is often more about pulse. So you're gonna have to be able to groove without someone necessarily keeping time...but it doesn't mean they're not locked in.

    Here's two versions of Angel Eyes, both with Jim Hall...the first version has a great rhythm section interacting, but also keeping time. The second is just as locked in, but they groove in a different way, much more conversational.




    Excellent comparison, esp. since both performances are over-the-top outstanding.

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Well, I'm not even sure Joe Public has a clue about what good soloing is these days. But if we take as "fact" that the players you mention rose to prominence mainly through their single line prowess, and that this is because of what non players seem to notice and appreciate more, then surely you identify with these non jazz players? Guys like yourself that come from Rock backgrounds often fail to fully come around to hearing Jazz the way that long time Jazzers do. Feel, time, dynamic expression, ensemble awareness etc are really important in Jazz more so than in Rock, right?. As is the idea of organic improvisation. Comping is harmonic and rhythmic improvisation, and knitting one's own comping into the fabric of the ensemble really is one of the finer skills in Jazz, probably harder to do really well, than soloing well. You need big ears and a fast mind to respond to what the others are choosing to do in the moment (not just the soloist!).

    I'm pretty sure you'll disagree and probably even take offence, but please don't, I only mention this because of how long it took myself to finally hear the totality of what organically goes on in good Jazz. If you hang out, and maybe get to play with enough "cats" over a long period of time, I'm pretty sure the penny will drop. Oh, I only dare to make this assumption because I have never, ever heard a true jazz player make the comments you have about comping. Rock guys? all the time!
    I'm not offended in any way about this, yes I started out playing Rock & Funk but I've always had a leg up because I'd been listening to some Jazz before I ever picked up an instrument. I even believe it was the reason I went from buying 1st guitar to making money on stage within 6 months, I think my ears were wider or something.

    I still think a lot don't look at the other things I said about this like the "average listener" or comping at "high levels" and only focus on the fact that question it's uber importance. It's a beautiful art, part of Jazz reality, just not one I give higher reverence to, or spend the majority of my time on. Life is short, time is precious, and you spend it on what is rewarding to you, for me it's composing and improv, for others it supporting other musicians, a reality I accept, so should everybody else.

    You mention 2 things that stand out, Jazz guys hearing things, and from time & experience yes, but it's not some super power that can't be developed quickly, I've witnessed that first hand. As for my buddy Joe, that's the person I would want to reach the most, the last thing I want to do is attempt to make a recording for Jazz guitar players. On this forum there are tons but in the world there are few. Reaching the masses, giving Jazz a higher profile in America & the world, creating a bigger market for this art we love and work in, are obviously more beneficial goals to me than making a recording that will impress the members here in the comping section, wouldn't you agree?

    I've acknowledged it's part of the game and can be a high level aspect of our art form, and I'm not even the OP, but my OBJECTIVE statement still stands. I didn't say abandon all chords and solo all day, so it's not disrespect, just objectivity.

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb300
    ...
    You mention 2 things that stand out, Jazz guys hearing things, and from time & experience yes, but it's not some super power that can't be developed quickly,....
    This has to be true, because we all know of people who reach Jazz maturity whilst still relatively young. Many of the mid century titans were ridiculously developed while in their 20's.
    However, guitar players tend to take longer. Rock/Blues/Folk/Pop/Funk players take way longer still - because we had to undo years of habits (mental and mechanical) that put us at a distinct disadvantage when compared with those picking up Jazz guitar from scratch. Absolutely. I've probably thought more about this very thing than most, and not only reckon I could write a book about it, I probably even will one day!

    Next time you listen to Wes comping, just really focus on what he's doing and tell me he's not having just as much fun as he would soloing. And ask yourself, how many rock players would choose to focus on that one particular aspect when listening?

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    This has to be true, because we all know of people who reach Jazz maturity whilst still relatively young. Many of the mid century titans were ridiculously developed while in their 20's.
    However, guitar players tend to take longer. Rock/Blues/Folk/Pop/Funk players take way longer still - because we had to undo years of habits (mental and mechanical) that put us at a distinct disadvantage when compared with those picking up Jazz guitar from scratch. Absolutely. I've probably thought more about this very thing than most, and not only reckon I could write a book about it, I probably even will one day!

    Next time you listen to Wes comping, just really focus on what he's doing and tell me he's not having just as much fun as he would soloing. And ask yourself, how many rock players would choose to focus on that one particular aspect when listening?
    I said it before, there is *SOME* validity to what I say.

    Yes, guitar folks like a lot of other instruments are very shaped by the habits, and someone starting in Jazz over other music forms will be more aware of it's importance, but musicians as a whole are sonic investigators and IMHO don't have to stretch too far to pick up an appreciation for it.

    As for when I listen to Wes comp, yea it's there, and it colors the arrangement, but I'm usually paying attention to Jimmy Smith solo instead.

  8. #82

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    Guitarists who comp well get booked.
    bottom line.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb300

    Look guys don't hate me for telling the truth, I never said it should be abolished or taken over by MIDI sequenced digital pianos, I simply made a valid point.

    Wes - Known for octave melody & solos, improv single note lines, some chord melody.
    Burrell - Bluesy single note line, great tone.
    Django - Blazing single note lines on an acoustic using only a couple fingers.
    Christian - The first cat to blow single note lines to compete with horn players.
    Benson - Single note melody, improv solos, scat singing with single note lines.
    Metheny - Melody, single note lines, etc.

    These are some of the most influential Jazz guitarists of all time and although Hall can be considered in those ranks by some, I don't think there is anybody on this forum that can refute this with the mentions of comping experts like Bickert, or cats like Barney Kessel, or Tal Farlow. As great artists as they are, they just haven't had the impact that the players I mention, that made a name speaking with their instrument through improvised solos rather than backing other artists.

    It's simply fact.
    It's simply your opinion, not a fact in any way, nor a valid point. Every guitarist you listed above got to where they were by comping well. Jazz is not rock or metal, it's far more involved, and unless and until you become skilled at the whole thing, nobody will ever care what you play. Wes, Burrell, Django, Benson, Christian, Metheny all came up through the ranks, which meant lots of comping for demanding bandleaders and soloists. That's a fact. And your score-keeping is the sign of a really ignorant amateur and very shallow listener. Bickert, Kessel and Farlow, likewise, were very well-known and busy guitarists in their times; your ignorance says more about you than you can say about them. You're telling no truths at all, you're just proudly displaying ignorance and a lack of listening ability, which is what all great musicians need first. The fact that you are unfamiliar with Bickert is the proof of your lack of truth and knowledge of real musicianship. And your stubborn refusal to accept what your betters are trying to teach you means we'll never see you on any major jazz stage, thankfully. But thanks for playing, and losing.

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb300
    I wouldn't even take a gig like that anyway, besides, multiple guitars in a Jazz setting? ... not very appealing.

    ... and your passive aggressive ... even less.
    You need a mirror. Two guitars in jazz? hell, Django's group had three. And you would be very wise not to take any jazz gig.

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb300
    Look guys don't hate me for telling the truth, I never said it should be abolished or taken over by MIDI sequenced digital pianos, I simply made a valid point.
    no. You've merely confused your opinion for a fact.


    Get well soon!

  12. #86

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    Comping is an art form when done creatively, some of the best current players with exquisite comping chops are Ed Cherry, Russell Malone and Peter Bernstein to name a few.

  13. #87

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    Pat, completely agree.

    I still think there was a lot of confusion in this thread as to what comping even IS, which derailed things.

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Sounds like you're doing it right. No guitarist wants his great comping associated with bass solos.
    .
    Pat Metheny indeed comps bass solos, and doing it very great, for example in 80/81, but other sessions too. It is true, that not certainly what one have in mind when hears the comping term...even better

  15. #89

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    hmmm...paul bollenback is one of the best guitar-compers in history. It's one reason he's so in demand as a sideman.

    Just a few examples...

    As sideman[edit]

    With Joey DeFrancesco

    • Part III (Columbia, 1991)
    • Reboppin (Columbia, 1992)
    • Live at the 5 Spot (Columbia, 1993)
    • All About My Girl (Muse, 1994)
    • The Street of Dreams (Big Mo, 1995)
    • Incredible! (Concord Jazz, 2000)
    • The Champ Round 2 (HighNote, 2000)
    • The Philadelphia Connection (HighNote, 2002)
    • Ballads and Blues (Concord, 2002)
    • Snapshot (HighNote, 2009)
    • Never Can Say Goodbye (HighNote, 2010)

    With Jim Snidero

    • Tippin (Savant, 2007)
    • Crossfire (Savant, 2009)
    • Interface (Savant, 2011)
    • Stream of Consciousness (Savant, 2013)

    With Gary Thomas


    With others

    • Christy Baron, Take This Journey (Chesky, 2002)
    • Gary Bartz, Live @ the Jazz Standard Mae Velha Vol 2 (OYO, 2005)
    • Bob Berg, Randy Brecker, Dennis Chambers, Joey DeFrancesco, The JazzTimes Superband (Concord, 2000)
    • Pat Bianchi, In the Moment (Savant, 2018)
    • Terri Lyne Carrington, Jazz Is a Spirit (ACT, 2002)
    • Steve Gadd, Live at Voce (BFM, 2010)
    • Tim Garland, Libra (Global Mix, 2009)
    • Greg Hatza, Organization (Palmetto, 1995)
    • Greg Hatza, Snake Eyes (Palmetto, 1998)
    • Ron Holloway, Slanted (Milestone, 1994)
    • Ron Holloway, Scorcher (Milestone, 1996)
    • Joe Locke, Beauty Burning (Sirocco, 2000)
    • Joe Locke, State of Soul (Sirocco, 2002)
    • Tony Monaco, Burnin' Grooves (Summit, 2001)
    • Shunzo Ohno, ReNew (Pulsebeats, 2016)
    • Houston Person, Social Call (HighNote, 2003)
    • Houston Person, The Art and Soul of Houston Person (HighNote, 2008)
    • Marilyn Scott, Every Time We Say Goodbye (Venus, 2008)
    • Carol Sloane, I Never Went Away (HighNote, 2001)
    • Carol Sloane, Whisper Sweet (HighNote, 2003)
    • Steve Wilson, Soulful Song (Maxjazz, 2003)

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    hmmm...paul bollenback is one of the best guitar-compers in history. It's one reason he's so in demand as a sideman.

    Just a few examples...

    As sideman[edit]

    With Joey DeFrancesco

    • Part III (Columbia, 1991)
    • Reboppin (Columbia, 1992)
    • Live at the 5 Spot (Columbia, 1993)
    • All About My Girl (Muse, 1994)
    • The Street of Dreams (Big Mo, 1995)
    • Incredible! (Concord Jazz, 2000)
    • The Champ Round 2 (HighNote, 2000)
    • The Philadelphia Connection (HighNote, 2002)
    • Ballads and Blues (Concord, 2002)
    • Snapshot (HighNote, 2009)
    • Never Can Say Goodbye (HighNote, 2010)

    With Jim Snidero

    • Tippin (Savant, 2007)
    • Crossfire (Savant, 2009)
    • Interface (Savant, 2011)
    • Stream of Consciousness (Savant, 2013)

    With Gary Thomas


    With others

    • Christy Baron, Take This Journey (Chesky, 2002)
    • Gary Bartz, Live @ the Jazz Standard Mae Velha Vol 2 (OYO, 2005)
    • Bob Berg, Randy Brecker, Dennis Chambers, Joey DeFrancesco, The JazzTimes Superband (Concord, 2000)
    • Pat Bianchi, In the Moment (Savant, 2018)
    • Terri Lyne Carrington, Jazz Is a Spirit (ACT, 2002)
    • Steve Gadd, Live at Voce (BFM, 2010)
    • Tim Garland, Libra (Global Mix, 2009)
    • Greg Hatza, Organization (Palmetto, 1995)
    • Greg Hatza, Snake Eyes (Palmetto, 1998)
    • Ron Holloway, Slanted (Milestone, 1994)
    • Ron Holloway, Scorcher (Milestone, 1996)
    • Joe Locke, Beauty Burning (Sirocco, 2000)
    • Joe Locke, State of Soul (Sirocco, 2002)
    • Tony Monaco, Burnin' Grooves (Summit, 2001)
    • Shunzo Ohno, ReNew (Pulsebeats, 2016)
    • Houston Person, Social Call (HighNote, 2003)
    • Houston Person, The Art and Soul of Houston Person (HighNote, 2008)
    • Marilyn Scott, Every Time We Say Goodbye (Venus, 2008)
    • Carol Sloane, I Never Went Away (HighNote, 2001)
    • Carol Sloane, Whisper Sweet (HighNote, 2003)
    • Steve Wilson, Soulful Song (Maxjazz, 2003)
    I can brag that he comped for me at a session once. The cat can play the sh-t out of any bag. I don't know why he doesn't get much attention here. They just don't seem to be into cats with great single line chops.