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05-05-2020 06:24 PM
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TonyB, I hear what you saying, but if I needed a 2nd guitarist for a gig, or someone asked me to recommend a guitar player for a gig, you'd be the last guy on the list lol. Just saying, no offense.
Originally Posted by tonyb300
First off I have to say I appreciate the recent less knee jerk responses to my controversial statement, believe me, I have much more controversial views on Jazz as a whole, but that's an entirely different conversation for another thread to bicker over.
@rpjazzguitar - Comping *WELL* can be there hardest thing, but then playing inspired single note lines that keep the listener deeply engaged can be just as difficult or more so. That's a question of viewpoint, skill and artistic tendency.
@christianm77 - Good analogy, I'm a good listener talking with people, I've actually done a decent job comping on some tunes backing vocalists, never really enjoyed it that much or was inspired by those type of players that do that. If I could run around doing masterful lines like Pat Martino I'd be happy(although I can't yet), and maybe I was meant to be a horn player............ Although I probably could never be able to stand the smell of those things in my face.
@grahambop - The Buddy Rich thing kinda supports what I'm saying in a way, but yes, bad backing instruments will kill any performance, Jazz or otherwise. I guess nobody read the part where I said Jazz people have taken it to very high levels, and only focus what ticked them off. That said, I will admit it's just not that enjoyable or inspiring to me so it wouldn't be half the fun.
@cosmic gumbo - If that's true honesty I am 100% behind you, I wish everybody could accept mine.
@Cunamara - Funny you mention McCoy (RIP), one of my favorite cats, although I think Trane would have kicked azz no matter who was behind him. The way Tyner plays connects with me over a lot of other keyboardists, I don't know if it's the note spacing in his chords or what, but I transposed his piano parts to guitar on one of his tunes and was more than surprised at how well it came out. This also reaffirms what I said earlier that comping praise is *mostly* lavished on pianists backing singers or horn players. There is a little validity to the things I say.
Look guys don't hate me for telling the truth, I never said it should be abolished or taken over by MIDI sequenced digital pianos, I simply made a valid point.
Wes - Known for octave melody & solos, improv single note lines, some chord melody.
Burrell - Bluesy single note line, great tone.
Django - Blazing single note lines on an acoustic using only a couple fingers.
Christian - The first cat to blow single note lines to compete with horn players.
Benson - Single note melody, improv solos, scat singing with single note lines.
Metheny - Melody, single note lines, etc.
These are some of the most influential Jazz guitarists of all time and although Hall can be considered in those ranks by some, I don't think there is anybody on this forum that can refute this with the mentions of comping experts like Bickert, or cats like Barney Kessel, or Tal Farlow. As great artists as they are, they just haven't had the impact that the players I mention, that made a name speaking with their instrument through improvised solos rather than backing other artists.
It's simply fact.
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I wouldn't even take a gig like that anyway, besides, multiple guitars in a Jazz setting? ... not very appealing. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
... and your passive aggressive ... even less.
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I find this discussion futile. If nobody would comp, there would be very little music. If nobody enjoyed to comp, there would be very little good music.
Music is about working together to reach a result which is greater than the sum of the individual musicians. A little humbleness is called for. Sometime you solo, sometimes you take on a subordinate - but not less important - role for the benefit of the whole. Herbert von Karajan said of his role as conductor with soloists: "A soloist plays at his own responsability. I belong to him." In much music there is very little soloing. That goes for a lot of symphonic and chamber music.
NHØP has told a story about Booker Erwin who was once booked to play with the house rhythm section (including NHØP) at the Montmatre Jazz House in Copenhagen. In the first set of the opening night Erwin did the best he could to outrace the rhythm section - unannounced and unrehearsed tempo shifts, key shifts etc. - but they were able to follow him. After the set NHØP with an angels face asked Erwin if they should "continue this sports contest" in the second set or play some music. They played music after that.
This discussion reminds me of threads through the years where a budding guitarist has been invited to play rhythm in a big band and asks if a Twin Reverb is powerful enough to ensure that he is "heard over the band at any time". But a rhythm guitarist shouldn't be "heard over the band", he should blend in with the rhythm section. One of the better rhythm guitarists (I don't think it was Freddie Green but it could have been) once said that the volume of a rhythm guitar should be a little lower than that of the hihat so the guitar is felt as much as heard. A good rhythm guitarist can be the hidden secret of a band like Freddie Green was in the Basie band. A bad rhythm guitarist can singlehandedly wreck a whole band even if he doesn't play very loud.
Of course there are exceptions where a melody line (and its underlying implied harmony) is so strong that it can live on its own without any accompanying. Bach's solo pieces for violin and cello are good examples. But there are far between such examples.Last edited by oldane; 05-06-2020 at 12:18 PM.
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..as to multiple guitars in a jazz setting - check out Bob Reynolds Guitar Band recordings. Good videos on Youtube. Really excellent. Originally Posted by tonyb300
Mark Lettieri and Nir Felder plus Kaveh Rastegar on bass guitar - here's one clip
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TBF if you have to lean on the rhythm section to express the groove and the changes you aren’t at a professional level. Originally Posted by oldane
at the pro level, (modern) jazz is a conversation. You don’t need people to comp for you: you invite a conversation with other voices.
(A rhythm section can also allow you to be looser and more open with what you do....)
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Hey I'm always up for having one of my guitar heroes turn out to be even better than I'd thought. Herb Ellis was an original. Originally Posted by paulkogut
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Well you might have a point, he might have been playing rhythm when I expected comping. I just periodically find the way Herb Ellis plays when not soloing to be a little distracting. It's just me, and I'm not trying to diss on Herb. All our heroes have things that we sometimes are unhappy with, like the way some think Joe Pass was too indifferent to tone. I just find Herb Ellis' support-role playing at times to be too busy and distracting, for my own personal enjoyment. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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This is an interesting take. Originally Posted by christianm77
What sticks out is "conversation", which goes back to my previous post in this thread where I said if I was in a situation not comping for a singer that all the instrument players should support each other equally and improvise equally. You have to admit that Jazz is the only music form that let's all the players speak, giving drummers and bassists solos, and even band leadership / star status.
In fact it's even inherent in Jazz's Dixieland origin where everybody got some, even the tuba guy every once in a while.
Makes me think of the album "Jasmine" where Jarrett & Haden speak on almost equal terms. One of my fav recordings and a perfect example of a Jazz conversation.
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Man I thought I was good at the BS thing... Durban must be having fun.
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What happened to durban? Did he go away? Originally Posted by Reg
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The classic "swing by, whack the hornet's nest, and run away and watch the fun" move.
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Reg you are so in the BS minor leagues. Originally Posted by Reg
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Did Durban get banned? If so what for?
I thought he was fun, trying a little too hard sometimes.
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At my level, semipro, I guess, playing groove based music, I need the rhythm section to groove. If they aren't grooving, I end up feeling like I can't play a single correct note. I think there are players who are better at bringing everybody into the proper groove; it's quite a remarkable thing to feel when it happens. I don't need anything fancy from the bass or drums, but they need to be locked in together on the time. There are moments when it happens when I feel like I can play anything and it will fit. Frustration vs flight. Originally Posted by christianm77
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He is now showing as ‘guest’, not sure what that means. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I always thought that if there is ONE style of music where the ensemble is most important, that would be jazz, a music that is all about listening, interplay and instant group composition.
I remember watching an Abbey Lincoln concert, a few years before she died. She was fragile, but gorgeous singing. Her band were musicians in their forties-fifties, don't remember who they were now, but i knew all their names, and they were burning bebop players, in the style of modern Criss Cross records. Yet in this gig, they all played softly, minimally, perfectly supporting the vocalist and the music played. I thought it was really masterful musicianship.
Another example would be the Branford Marsalis band (some of them), when they worked with Sting. The way they play and support the frontman and his music..!
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Well we all need a rhythm section to groove, that’s a given. A great section will carry a mediocre soloist. What I aspire to is to carry my weight at least. You get it anyway. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
A do dig that a lot of groove is actually accuracy. You can talk about swing but really it’s about being able to place things consistently to the point where you just do that naturally and can add layers and layers of nuance on top... but without that you are just rushing fake groove or playing wet blanket nothing time that doesn’t exactly drag or rush but doesn't have any real momentum to it.
This always gets misunderstood and straw-manned when I say it and we end up irrelevantly talking about Brazilian swing (which is absolutely consistent.)
i don’t mean being on grid necessarily (though Peter Erskine seems to say it is) but negative space is the real proof of the musician... it’s how you play those spaces within the groove...
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Wow you just went Merleau-Ponty on me. I probably will never be a jazz player. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I'm not sure this is even about the right topic.
In many groups, there is a joint effort to lock-in together. It works at one level or another. The weakest player seems to have outsized influence.
Overall, the group sinks or swims as one.
But, I've had the experience, a few times, of playing with someone whose time was so strong and so clear, that the lines of authority, if I can call it that, flowed from him to each of the other players. That is, you could hear one chord, placed so perfectly, that everybody could follow exactly where the time should be.
Thinking back, it was usually a pianist, but I have heard other rhythm instruments do it.
In the situations I remember, these were not busy players. Perfectly timed note, and then some space.
First time I felt it was with a former Cal Tjader sideman. Again, with Brazilian master Amilton Godoy. I wasn't playing but I heard mandolinist Mike Marshall at a jam, seeming to do the same thing. Some drummers whose names I may not have permission to mention.
Playing with someone with time so strong is qualitatively different than playing with a lesser player. I don't know how to develop it. Maybe win the lottery and hire them to play with you until you catch on?
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Some people comp for themselves.
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Well, it sounds all freaky deaky zen etc, but really it's very simple and practical. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Here's what it is on the most basic level. So, from Erskine's (excellent) book; choose a tempo and record yourself singing, for instance, Happy Birthday. Or any tune, standard whatever. Now, count along with it.
Do you leave the right spaces?
This exercise is CRUEL. I warned you upfront.
Now. great time is when you do on a small level - the space between the 4+ and the 1 is a classic thing for instance. It's much easier to keep track of time when you are playing then when you are not. And masters of groove leave a LOT of space.
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Originally Posted by bobby d
Excellent.............. that was the exactly point my father who started this whole thread was trying to convey, unfortunately Dad is back in hospital again. He was always talking about people playing over anything, but the key to was making it fit and sound good he sure could too. Dad said Wes & Django played like a little orchestras, obviously this old hat now being 50-70 years back, the point i think he was making, it was like a form of arranging ( in the sense) little parts fills etc brushes of the strings, people talk about Wes Chords Octaves Single notes, but not too much he used to fan the strings a lot, sometimes a tremelo
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Best wishes for your Dad. He has been missed. Originally Posted by marvinvv
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Well, I'm not even sure Joe Public has a clue about what good soloing is these days. But if we take as "fact" that the players you mention rose to prominence mainly through their single line prowess, and that this is because of what non players seem to notice and appreciate more, then surely you identify with these non jazz players? Guys like yourself that come from Rock backgrounds often fail to fully come around to hearing Jazz the way that long time Jazzers do. Feel, time, dynamic expression, ensemble awareness etc are really important in Jazz more so than in Rock, right?. As is the idea of organic improvisation. Comping is harmonic and rhythmic improvisation, and knitting one's own comping into the fabric of the ensemble really is one of the finer skills in Jazz, probably harder to do really well, than soloing well. You need big ears and a fast mind to respond to what the others are choosing to do in the moment (not just the soloist!). Originally Posted by tonyb300
First off I have to say I appreciate the recent less knee jerk responses to my controversial statement, believe me, I have much more controversial views on Jazz as a whole, but that's an entirely different conversation for another thread to bicker over.
@rpjazzguitar - Comping *WELL* can be there hardest thing, but then playing inspired single note lines that keep the listener deeply engaged can be just as difficult or more so. That's a question of viewpoint, skill and artistic tendency.
@christianm77 - Good analogy, I'm a good listener talking with people, I've actually done a decent job comping on some tunes backing vocalists, never really enjoyed it that much or was inspired by those type of players that do that. If I could run around doing masterful lines like Pat Martino I'd be happy(although I can't yet), and maybe I was meant to be a horn player............ Although I probably could never be able to stand the smell of those things in my face.
@grahambop - The Buddy Rich thing kinda supports what I'm saying in a way, but yes, bad backing instruments will kill any performance, Jazz or otherwise. I guess nobody read the part where I said Jazz people have taken it to very high levels, and only focus what ticked them off. That said, I will admit it's just not that enjoyable or inspiring to me so it wouldn't be half the fun.
@cosmic gumbo - If that's true honesty I am 100% behind you, I wish everybody could accept mine.
@Cunamara - Funny you mention McCoy (RIP), one of my favorite cats, although I think Trane would have kicked azz no matter who was behind him. The way Tyner plays connects with me over a lot of other keyboardists, I don't know if it's the note spacing in his chords or what, but I transposed his piano parts to guitar on one of his tunes and was more than surprised at how well it came out. This also reaffirms what I said earlier that comping praise is *mostly* lavished on pianists backing singers or horn players. There is a little validity to the things I say.
Look guys don't hate me for telling the truth, I never said it should be abolished or taken over by MIDI sequenced digital pianos, I simply made a valid point.
Wes - Known for octave melody & solos, improv single note lines, some chord melody.
Burrell - Bluesy single note line, great tone.
Django - Blazing single note lines on an acoustic using only a couple fingers.
Christian - The first cat to blow single note lines to compete with horn players.
Benson - Single note melody, improv solos, scat singing with single note lines.
Metheny - Melody, single note lines, etc.
These are some of the most influential Jazz guitarists of all time and although Hall can be considered in those ranks by some, I don't think there is anybody on this forum that can refute this with the mentions of comping experts like Bickert, or cats like Barney Kessel, or Tal Farlow. As great artists as they are, they just haven't had the impact that the players I mention, that made a name speaking with their instrument through improvised solos rather than backing other artists.
It's simply fact.
I'm pretty sure you'll disagree and probably even take offence, but please don't, I only mention this because of how long it took myself to finally hear the totality of what organically goes on in good Jazz. If you hang out, and maybe get to play with enough "cats" over a long period of time, I'm pretty sure the penny will drop. Oh, I only dare to make this assumption because I have never, ever heard a true jazz player make the comments you have about comping. Rock guys? all the time!
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There's a difference between playing pulse and playing time.
There's plenty of music where playing time is important.
Jazz in the last 50 years ago is often more about pulse. So you're gonna have to be able to groove without someone necessarily keeping time...but it doesn't mean they're not locked in.
Here's two versions of Angel Eyes, both with Jim Hall...the first version has a great rhythm section interacting, but also keeping time. The second is just as locked in, but they groove in a different way, much more conversational.
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So I have too many opinions about everything... and BS way too much. So here's a clip from a group that I started subbing for... The actual guy who I've known and performed with for years is bassist and not even on the gig... nothingville gig and players are new to Jazz etc... but I still have fun, I like to play. Anyway check out my comping, i lay down pretty standard chord patterns with standard melody or lead lines on top. Tried to develop some other ideas... didn't go anywhere... used a few extended montuno single harmonic lines... and for the bassist again standard harmonic rhythmic kicks to setup and accent form etc... We're loose but the overall shape is like jazz 101, which is about all we can pull off, It's The mando's gig, don't know the drumer, etc... (my improve is same old shit but at least I'm into playing, having fun etc... yea the harmonic counter melody thing is just more of me having fun... some of its cool.
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Excellent comparison, esp. since both performances are over-the-top outstanding. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I'm not offended in any way about this, yes I started out playing Rock & Funk but I've always had a leg up because I'd been listening to some Jazz before I ever picked up an instrument. I even believe it was the reason I went from buying 1st guitar to making money on stage within 6 months, I think my ears were wider or something. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Well, I'm not even sure Joe Public has a clue about what good soloing is these days. But if we take as "fact" that the players you mention rose to prominence mainly through their single line prowess, and that this is because of what non players seem to notice and appreciate more, then surely you identify with these non jazz players? Guys like yourself that come from Rock backgrounds often fail to fully come around to hearing Jazz the way that long time Jazzers do. Feel, time, dynamic expression, ensemble awareness etc are really important in Jazz more so than in Rock, right?. As is the idea of organic improvisation. Comping is harmonic and rhythmic improvisation, and knitting one's own comping into the fabric of the ensemble really is one of the finer skills in Jazz, probably harder to do really well, than soloing well. You need big ears and a fast mind to respond to what the others are choosing to do in the moment (not just the soloist!).
I'm pretty sure you'll disagree and probably even take offence, but please don't, I only mention this because of how long it took myself to finally hear the totality of what organically goes on in good Jazz. If you hang out, and maybe get to play with enough "cats" over a long period of time, I'm pretty sure the penny will drop. Oh, I only dare to make this assumption because I have never, ever heard a true jazz player make the comments you have about comping. Rock guys? all the time!
I still think a lot don't look at the other things I said about this like the "average listener" or comping at "high levels" and only focus on the fact that question it's uber importance. It's a beautiful art, part of Jazz reality, just not one I give higher reverence to, or spend the majority of my time on. Life is short, time is precious, and you spend it on what is rewarding to you, for me it's composing and improv, for others it supporting other musicians, a reality I accept, so should everybody else.
You mention 2 things that stand out, Jazz guys hearing things, and from time & experience yes, but it's not some super power that can't be developed quickly, I've witnessed that first hand. As for my buddy Joe, that's the person I would want to reach the most, the last thing I want to do is attempt to make a recording for Jazz guitar players. On this forum there are tons but in the world there are few. Reaching the masses, giving Jazz a higher profile in America & the world, creating a bigger market for this art we love and work in, are obviously more beneficial goals to me than making a recording that will impress the members here in the comping section, wouldn't you agree?
I've acknowledged it's part of the game and can be a high level aspect of our art form, and I'm not even the OP, but my OBJECTIVE statement still stands. I didn't say abandon all chords and solo all day, so it's not disrespect, just objectivity.
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This has to be true, because we all know of people who reach Jazz maturity whilst still relatively young. Many of the mid century titans were ridiculously developed while in their 20's. Originally Posted by tonyb300
However, guitar players tend to take longer. Rock/Blues/Folk/Pop/Funk players take way longer still - because we had to undo years of habits (mental and mechanical) that put us at a distinct disadvantage when compared with those picking up Jazz guitar from scratch. Absolutely. I've probably thought more about this very thing than most, and not only reckon I could write a book about it, I probably even will one day!
Next time you listen to Wes comping, just really focus on what he's doing and tell me he's not having just as much fun as he would soloing. And ask yourself, how many rock players would choose to focus on that one particular aspect when listening?
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I said it before, there is *SOME* validity to what I say. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Yes, guitar folks like a lot of other instruments are very shaped by the habits, and someone starting in Jazz over other music forms will be more aware of it's importance, but musicians as a whole are sonic investigators and IMHO don't have to stretch too far to pick up an appreciation for it.
As for when I listen to Wes comp, yea it's there, and it colors the arrangement, but I'm usually paying attention to Jimmy Smith solo instead.
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Guitarists who comp well get booked.
bottom line.
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It's simply your opinion, not a fact in any way, nor a valid point. Every guitarist you listed above got to where they were by comping well. Jazz is not rock or metal, it's far more involved, and unless and until you become skilled at the whole thing, nobody will ever care what you play. Wes, Burrell, Django, Benson, Christian, Metheny all came up through the ranks, which meant lots of comping for demanding bandleaders and soloists. That's a fact. And your score-keeping is the sign of a really ignorant amateur and very shallow listener. Bickert, Kessel and Farlow, likewise, were very well-known and busy guitarists in their times; your ignorance says more about you than you can say about them. You're telling no truths at all, you're just proudly displaying ignorance and a lack of listening ability, which is what all great musicians need first. The fact that you are unfamiliar with Bickert is the proof of your lack of truth and knowledge of real musicianship. And your stubborn refusal to accept what your betters are trying to teach you means we'll never see you on any major jazz stage, thankfully. But thanks for playing, and losing. Originally Posted by tonyb300
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You need a mirror. Two guitars in jazz? hell, Django's group had three. And you would be very wise not to take any jazz gig. Originally Posted by tonyb300
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no. You've merely confused your opinion for a fact. Originally Posted by tonyb300
Get well soon!
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Comping is an art form when done creatively, some of the best current players with exquisite comping chops are Ed Cherry, Russell Malone and Peter Bernstein to name a few.
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Pat, completely agree.
I still think there was a lot of confusion in this thread as to what comping even IS, which derailed things.
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Pat Metheny indeed comps bass solos, and doing it very great, for example in 80/81, but other sessions too. It is true, that not certainly what one have in mind when hears the comping term...even better Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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hmmm...paul bollenback is one of the best guitar-compers in history. It's one reason he's so in demand as a sideman.
Just a few examples...
As sideman[edit]
With Joey DeFrancesco
- Part III (Columbia, 1991)
- Reboppin (Columbia, 1992)
- Live at the 5 Spot (Columbia, 1993)
- All About My Girl (Muse, 1994)
- The Street of Dreams (Big Mo, 1995)
- Incredible! (Concord Jazz, 2000)
- The Champ Round 2 (HighNote, 2000)
- The Philadelphia Connection (HighNote, 2002)
- Ballads and Blues (Concord, 2002)
- Snapshot (HighNote, 2009)
- Never Can Say Goodbye (HighNote, 2010)
With Jim Snidero
- Tippin (Savant, 2007)
- Crossfire (Savant, 2009)
- Interface (Savant, 2011)
- Stream of Consciousness (Savant, 2013)
With Gary Thomas
- Seventh Quadrant (Enja, 1987)
- Code Violations (Enja, 1988)
- The Kold Kage (JMT, 1991)
- Exile's Gate (JMT, 1993)
- Found on Sordid Streets (Winter & Winter, 1997)
With others
- Christy Baron, Take This Journey (Chesky, 2002)
- Gary Bartz, Live @ the Jazz Standard Mae Velha Vol 2 (OYO, 2005)
- Bob Berg, Randy Brecker, Dennis Chambers, Joey DeFrancesco, The JazzTimes Superband (Concord, 2000)
- Pat Bianchi, In the Moment (Savant, 2018)
- Terri Lyne Carrington, Jazz Is a Spirit (ACT, 2002)
- Steve Gadd, Live at Voce (BFM, 2010)
- Tim Garland, Libra (Global Mix, 2009)
- Greg Hatza, Organization (Palmetto, 1995)
- Greg Hatza, Snake Eyes (Palmetto, 1998)
- Ron Holloway, Slanted (Milestone, 1994)
- Ron Holloway, Scorcher (Milestone, 1996)
- Joe Locke, Beauty Burning (Sirocco, 2000)
- Joe Locke, State of Soul (Sirocco, 2002)
- Tony Monaco, Burnin' Grooves (Summit, 2001)
- Shunzo Ohno, ReNew (Pulsebeats, 2016)
- Houston Person, Social Call (HighNote, 2003)
- Houston Person, The Art and Soul of Houston Person (HighNote, 2008)
- Marilyn Scott, Every Time We Say Goodbye (Venus, 2008)
- Carol Sloane, I Never Went Away (HighNote, 2001)
- Carol Sloane, Whisper Sweet (HighNote, 2003)
- Steve Wilson, Soulful Song (Maxjazz, 2003)
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I can brag that he comped for me at a session once. The cat can play the sh-t out of any bag. I don't know why he doesn't get much attention here. They just don't seem to be into cats with great single line chops. Originally Posted by jzucker
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