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  1. #1

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    In Bb

    X3334x
    x4535x
    x5556x
    3x343x

    this works great as a kinda 2536

    also this

    x3334x
    x3424x
    x5556x
    3x343x

    also works great too .... hmmm

    how is that possible ???
    both the C#o and the Co work ok !

    perhaps my ears are weird
    and only one version really works ....

    Perplexed ....thanks guys

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    One possible explanation:

    Diminished chords can each stand in for 4 7b9 chords.

    C#o = A7b9 / C7b9 / Eb7b9 / F#7b9

    Co = F7b9 / Ab7b9 / B7b9 / D7b9

    Cm11 A7b9 Dm11 G7

    Cm11 F7b9 Dm11 G7

    Voice leading also plays a role.

  4. #3

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    the diminished chords are often used in progressions but incorrectly named..few have spent the time to explore the diminished scale fully to discover all the chords embedded within it and how to use them in progressions...

    this is one of my "pet projects" along with the augmented scales and chords...I find symmetric harmony a world unto itself that is not traveled by many..it expands the diatonic and chromatic movements in harmony and opens melodic options within their scales

    pingu has discovered one of the many options in using a diminished chord..that is it can be named something else..and have a different function..and still be "correct" within a harmonic framework..

    and yes..bako..voice leading is overlooked many times .. as many players only concentrate on the "bass" note of the chord and leave the other notes to fend for themselves..with a hope and a prayer that then sound good in the overall progression..

  5. #4

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    Two types of dims

    - dominants in disguise
    - bridging chords

    did’s simply sub in for a 7b9 chord. Create cadential motion.

    e.g. C C#o7 Dm Do7 C

    (C#o7 = A7b9, Do7 = G7b9)

    bc’s join the dots, interpolate between chords.

    e.g. C Ebo7 Dm7 Ebo7 C/E

    Here the voice leading is uber smooth but those chords don’t really ‘function’ they are just passing chords

    C E G A
    C Eb Gb A
    C D F A

    and back

    (Now, if C/E = Em7 you can turn that Ebo7 into a dominant in disguise.)

    Learn more old tunes for examples of this.

  6. #5

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    Co to me is passing diminished to I first of all... and D- chord is a sub for I here

    And C#o can be passing deminished from II to II or - if you wish - a sub for A77 (V to III)...


  7. #6

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    I'd query that the second one does work. Obviously the first one does because it's a standard passing chord: Cm- C#o - Dm - G7

    The second one isn't so effective but it's permissible. Cm to Co is okay but okay isn't the same as effective in that progression.

    If you moved it up to Ebo then it goes 'down' to the Dm whereas the first one goes 'up' to the Dm.

    The theory's irrelevant, it's how it sounds that counts.

  8. #7
    thanks y’all !

  9. #8

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    ||: C dim Maj7 | C6 :||

    C Eb Gb B to C E G A

    which type is that?

    It's a stock intro vamp or reharm for piano players.
    see Bali Hai, Spring Is Here, etc

  10. #9

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    rather than start a new thread - i have been wondering a similar thing recently after looking at Barry Harris' major 6 diminished idea (alternating inversions of the major chord with its neighbouring diminished and including the sharp 5)

    from what i understand in Bbmaj that would go

    - Bbmaj6
    - Cdim
    - D/Bbmajor6 (don't know the terminology but a Bmaj6 inversion starting on D)
    - Eb dim
    - F/Bbmaj6
    - F# G dim
    - G/ Bbmaj6
    - Adim

    but I also know we can go from Bbmajor to Cmin via a Bdiminished chord (which can be viewed a G7b9 chord or its family of four)

    so that would mean we can have Bdim and Cdim (and variations of each chord up a minor third) meaning we get the notes of the diminished scale - b c d eb f f# g# a

    but I cant really connect the dots as to what this means, or how to use this in the context of a song? can someone shed some light as my intellect appears to have reached its limits ...

  11. #10

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    I once dived deep into diminished harmony, spurred by the Steve Neff (neffmusic) tutorials.

    Spun my head around... Any Diminished works... but to very different effects.

    if you want to approach the I chord in major, you can use
    Dim starting on the seventh scale step (9th, 4th, b6th): sounds typical, not too fancy, bland, even
    Dim starting on the b3 (root, b5, 6th): sounds dreamy and is the typical Idim-Imajor cadence like Spring is here, It never entered my mind or the way John Taylor plays the first chord of I loves you Porgy.
    Dim starting on the b9, b7, 3rd, 5th: sounds dissonant, but there’s a real “release”, when you resolve it to the Root chord. You’ll hear Joe Henderson use this a lot, Chick Corea and of course, God himself, Herbie Hancock.

    I obsessed about it for a while but, not good enough of a player to really work with it.

    thing is, knowing this, I don’t get surprised easily if I figure out chord progressions or licks. The great players use diminished everywhere. Which is not to say they use it randomly, they use it to different effect.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by basinstreet
    rather than start a new thread - i have been wondering a similar thing recently after looking at Barry Harris' major 6 diminished idea (alternating inversions of the major chord with its neighbouring diminished and including the sharp 5)

    from what i understand in Bbmaj that would go

    - Bbmaj6
    - Cdim
    - D/Bbmajor6 (don't know the terminology but a Bmaj6 inversion starting on D)
    - Eb dim
    - F/Bbmaj6
    - F# G dim
    - G/ Bbmaj6
    - Adim

    but I also know we can go from Bbmajor to Cmin via a Bdiminished chord (which can be viewed a G7b9 chord or its family of four)

    so that would mean we can have Bdim and Cdim (and variations of each chord up a minor third) meaning we get the notes of the diminished scale - b c d eb f f# g# a

    but I cant really connect the dots as to what this means, or how to use this in the context of a song? can someone shed some light as my intellect appears to have reached its limits ...
    The Barry Harris diminished 6th scale shows how to move diminished over a single chord. In your example that’s the Bb. The diminished acts as the V7 of the Bb chord.
    Your second example of Bb moving to Cmi7 is now shifting the harmony to a different chord. Bb is no longer vamping on itself but is moving, in this case a subdominant sound (Cmi7 but also Ebma7 would be a similar harmonic movement.) Bdim7 here is fulfilling the role of the V7 for the chord you’re resolving to,i.e. Cmi7. So Bdim7 is acting as a G7 (or Bb7 in the case of Ebma7)

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    In Bb

    X3334x
    x4535x
    x5556x
    3x343x

    this works great as a kinda 2536

    also this

    x3334x
    x3424x
    x5556x
    3x343x

    also works great too .... hmmm

    how is that possible ???
    both the C#o and the Co work ok !

    perhaps my ears are weird
    and only one version really works ....

    Perplexed ....thanks guys
    If you think of your Cmi7 as an Eb6 chord and the Cdim7 as Ebdim7 it makes more sense. Eb6 flattens the 5th and 3rd to become Ebdim7. Ebdim flattens its root and 3rd to become the Dmi7. Barry Harris uses these movements all the time to create movement in between chords.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by basinstreet
    rather than start a new thread - i have been wondering a similar thing recently after looking at Barry Harris' major 6 diminished idea (alternating inversions of the major chord with its neighbouring diminished and including the sharp 5)

    from what i understand in Bbmaj that would go

    - Bbmaj6
    - Cdim
    - D/Bbmajor6 (don't know the terminology but a Bmaj6 inversion starting on D)
    - Eb dim
    - F/Bbmaj6
    - F# G dim
    - G/ Bbmaj6
    - Adim

    but I also know we can go from Bbmajor to Cmin via a Bdiminished chord (which can be viewed a G7b9 chord or its family of four)

    so that would mean we can have Bdim and Cdim (and variations of each chord up a minor third) meaning we get the notes of the diminished scale - b c d eb f f# g# a

    but I cant really connect the dots as to what this means, or how to use this in the context of a song? can someone shed some light as my intellect appears to have reached its limits ...

    yep..diminished and augmented scales and chords are not that easy to use in a diatonic harmony framwork..but lets make it a bit easier to digest

    first..there are only THREE diminished scales C Db D...and they are much easier to navagate around with if you use only FLAT notes in them..

    lets examine your example of the diminished scale

    B C D Eb F F# G# A
    now..with all Flat notes
    B C D Eb F Gb Ab A ..for me its just easier to "read" think and locate the notes in this "twisted scale"

    lets break this down a bit...many would call this a B diminished half/whole scale..and it is widely used as such...but what if..we call it what it really is

    the C diminished scale (whole/half) -- starting on the B note...notice

    C D Eb F Gb Ab A B // B C D Eb F Gb Ab A

    in essence you have two diminished scales in one and the chords embedded in the scale are the same..example..

    D7#9..F7#9 Ab7#9 B7#9 are all with both scales as are many other chords...(and two tritone scales as well..!!) and they are interchangable with some practice..

    this approach eliminates having to think of an entire "diminished family" (half/whole step) - and realize that your just playing the scale one note higher or lower..but the name of the scale stayes the same..

    now..with the symmetric nature of the scale and chords within it..yes you can name C dim Eb dim Gb dim A dim(family of four) ..but realize the "root scale" is C dim ( again there are only three dim scales !)..when you reduce the confusion and see the dim "family of four" the feeling being lost is replaced with confidence of knowing where you are and what notes your using and in what "direction" your going..both harmonically and melodically

    this may take a while to wrap your head around..a new way to think about symmetric harmony...but it opens many other doors musically

    hope this helps

  15. #14

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    B C D Eb F Gb Ab A

    The odd numbered notes are B D F Ab, which is a dim7 chord. Any note can be the root.

    The even numbered notes are C Eb Gb A, which is a dim7 chord. Any note can be the root.

    So, the diminished scale is formed by two dim7 chords a half step apart.

    Maybe the reason either chord works in your example can be considered from the point of view that both chords come from the same scale -- even though they're a half step apart.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 04-05-2020 at 02:18 AM.

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    If you think of your Cmi7 as an Eb6 chord and the Cdim7 as Ebdim7 it makes more sense. Eb6 flattens the 5th and 3rd to become Ebdim7. Ebdim flattens its root and 3rd to become the Dmi7. Barry Harris uses these movements all the time to create movement in between chords.
    yes I see , that is helpful
    many thanks

    also thanks to RPj and Wolfen
    very helpful

  17. #16

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    I did this vid a while back. It’s a little longer than it needs to be but sums up why I think rp and Wolfen’s posts should not be taken as the whole story, and what else you can do:


    Diminished scales are cool - but that’s more like an exotic flavour, right? A soloing choice. Not where the chord comes from.

    In fact it’s perfectly easy to use them in a diatonic framework if you know what you are doing, it’s just that many jazzers never learn HOW to do that because it simply doesn’t seem to be taught.

    After all, Chopin and Schubert understood them in all the ways GASB and Jobim tunes use them and the octatonic scales hadn't emerged from Russia yet...

    Historically, I think people don’t understand common tone dim7s very well because while they are extremely common in earlier jazz, they drifted out of fashion during the bebop era when they were substituted in various ways. The most famous example is the first two bars of Stella by Starlight.... People - sometimes killer players - can be a bit puzzled anything that isn’t 2 5 1.

    Truth is, you can get away with being shit at them if you have workarounds.

    In general the use of the chords follows obvious patterns that are clear from learning lots of GASB tunes, for instance.

    I honestly think most players would rather not deal with o7s lol. I used to be like that.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-05-2020 at 05:33 AM.

  18. #17

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    If you couldn’t be arsed to wade through that screed; or, you don’t care; here’s something practical and hopefully helpful

    I really like Jordan’s way of expressing the biiio7. He said he has trouble making diminished scale sound like music. So this is is solution.... (prob Stephon Harris.)

    So in C, we have Ebo7, ok?

    Play B major triad, but add the C as a tension note.

    this sounds - great, and is zero bullshit. And you don’t have that super obvious ‘now I shall use a dim7 arpeggio’ vibe. Let’s face it dim7s have been a bit cliche since the talkies.

    Now we could see that as belonging to E harmonic minor or Eb diminished scale, right? But it sounds like the good notes, the core notes. Just enough colour to be hip.

    So then, and this is my favourite bit

    Dm7 Ebo7 C/E

    becomes triadically:

    F B C (or Em)

    if you put this over a dominant pedal you get into some McCoy territory. And you can also use dim symmetry if you want to get that spicy whole half sound, or leave it natural and harmonic minor-y.

    Also works fabulous on F#o7 so there’s your two main ct dims sorted and everything else is a 2 5 1. Now go have fun.

    Hey! Everyone’s a winner!
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-05-2020 at 05:17 AM.

  19. #18

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    One thing abou dim7 is that it is so enharmonic... that it turns often into a general sound where the chord tones have no function within a chord -- they are 'no-scale degree' - there is not root-3rd-5th-7th --- just a bunch of interchangebal minor 3rds intervals

    I remember that first time I felt a change about it when I thought of it as of dim triad and its inversions.... it does not 'release' you from dimished sound... but as the inversions of the traid are not enharmonic (as the the inveisions of the dim 7th) it also pushes you outside that ''super obvious ‘now I shall use a dim7 arpeggio’ vibe''...



  20. #19

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    Insensative

    Given the prominence of A and Bb in the melody, D aeolian
    would be the mostly natural starting reference for Dm7.
    D harmonic minor works well melodically but I hear Dm7
    as the default and DmMa7 as an interesting possible sub color.
    The B natural in dorian is possible but I generally wouldn't use
    it in this context because it messes with the surprise element
    of the G/B arrival. The melody around Cm7 G/B on the other
    hand features A natural and dorian makes more sense to me here.

  21. #20

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    Yeah I said Dorian in the vid? I can see your point... I always forget about the Bb tbh.

    I don’t know if I lean into the B particularly, i tend to outline Dm7 iirc.

    I would play C on it anyway, and leave the C# for the second chord.

    it’s C minor 6 for sure

    otoh that Bb does feel a little like an upper dissonant neighbour tone rather than anything harmonic. I know many jazzers like to make everything into part of a harmonic system, but it’s an analogous situation to the leaning 4ths in Stella.

    if you are an improviser who feels it’s important to honour the melody as opposed to the basic changes (bebop style) that’s going to matter more; and I could certainly see why one would feel this would be an apt approach on this tune and other ballads.

    .....So, depends. I’ll have a go back over that when I get a chance with a more ... sensitive .... ear...

  22. #21

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    wow, I thought i had killed that thread off and came back after a day or two to loads of replies! it's going to take me some time to go through all this with the guitar tonight / on my coffee break. thanks for the replies. I will see where it gets me ...

    cheers

  23. #22

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    Ok so if I had to narrow this down to an aesthetic choice....

    Ebo7 in the key of C

    E Diatonic minor (harm and natural)
    E F# G A B C D D#

    (because minor key bop melody lines often combine 7 and b7 depending on melodic direction etc. It’s also the set of pitches you would get if did the Barry Harris thang.)

    Eb whole half (from F)
    F Gb Ab A B C D Eb

    So, upshot is that there are only two pitches different.

    to my ears the diatonic minor options are the more ‘natural’, simple sounding. I think the Western ear accepts the more diatonic major/minor type options as more familiar.

    its really the F and Ab (the 9 and the 11 as opposed to the b9 and b11/3) on the Ebo7 that give you the diminished scale sound.

    ive always found those sounds very pungent - like truffle oil. Sometimes that’s what you want, but I’ve always found them a bit ugly in ballads, say.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    and yes..bako..voice leading is overlooked many times .. as many players only concentrate on the "bass" note of the chord and leave the other notes to fend for themselves..with a hope and a prayer that then sound good in the overall progression..
    One of the joys of Ed Bickert's playing to me is that he left the bass notes to the bassist and instead his playing focused strongly on voice leading, resulting in a sound that was simultaneously mysterious and eminently logical. Sometimes there was only one note (or none) of the triad/tetrad of the moment and it was leading tones woven together. I haven't been able to do more than scratch the surface of that.