Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Posts 26 to 50 of 51
  1. #26

    User Info Menu


  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rsclosson
    The descriptions of the Jimmy Bruno lessons is basically how I used the charts I provided in post #15. Those exercises formed the road map that I rely on to find my way around the fretboard, both for comping and solo guitar arrangement. My charts don’t include as many string set combinations as yours though. I should work on some of those that I neglected.

  4. #28

    User Info Menu

    this diagram I created of the triads helped me. this is one key major=green ... minor=yellow

    Useful ways to memorize jazz chords?-triads-jpeg

    Just find a way to see the whole key in a pattern, and then you can add whatever notes you'd like

  5. #29

    User Info Menu

    Best way to learn is by playing songs and learning chords as needed.

    Any other way is a waste of time if you ask me. I've forgotten every chord I never used.

  6. #30

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    Best way to learn is by playing songs and learning chords as needed.

    Any other way is a waste of time if you ask me. I've forgotten every chord I never used.
    I have to agree. Maybe different people learn differently, but does anyone learn an immediate embodied command of chord voicings simply by writing them out and practicing them in isolation?

    I mean if you asked me to play all the inversions and voicings I could think of of a chord there would be a lot more voicings than I actually use in my playing. It becomes an exercise in maths if it doesn’t connect to a song.

    I think harmonising scales etc can be useful

  7. #31

    User Info Menu

    I agree about the scales. You have to get those shapes under your fingers to improvise, but a chord, just learn what you need for the song, and if it comes up again move it. If you have to move it too far look for a different shape. Anyway, that's how I'm doing it.

  8. #32

    User Info Menu

    I've pretty much been pantomime player most of my life, but started to take lessons and really put the work in starting at the end of March last year. I like patterns, things that I can repeat. The Segovia scales have been really helpful to me. Learn the 8 patterns, I can do that.

    I've had a Hal Leonard book in my collection for a few years that I really never opened, but it has explained chords in a similar way. There are shapes depending on where the root is. The book doesn't have all of the voicings (usually 3 each), but for me that works. As I learn more, I can add in the inversions based on the formula for each chord.

  9. #33

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I have to agree. Maybe different people learn differently, but does anyone learn an immediate embodied command of chord voicings simply by writing them out and practicing them in isolation?

    I mean if you asked me to play all the inversions and voicings I could think of of a chord there would be a lot more voicings than I actually use in my playing. It becomes an exercise in maths if it doesn’t connect to a song.

    I think harmonising scales etc can be useful
    After a few basic grips for the novice, it's songs, songs, songs. Chord melody with reharm is especially helpful.

  10. #34

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I have to agree. Maybe different people learn differently, but does anyone learn an immediate embodied command of chord voicings simply by writing them out and practicing them in isolation?

    I mean if you asked me to play all the inversions and voicings I could think of of a chord there would be a lot more voicings than I actually use in my playing. It becomes an exercise in maths if it doesn’t connect to a song.

    I think harmonising scales etc can be useful
    I do practice some stuff systemstically from time to time...
    Like inversions and all... but with years I stopped trying to cover everything (you know that all in all keys
    etc) ....
    I just try to find some smaller things I like, practice them and immediately incorporate in tunes...

    Otherwise I just forget them soon...

    I guess there are minds like Ted Greene who can grasp it all.. sort of engeneering mind in art.

  11. #35

    User Info Menu

    I dunno, Ted Greene always seemed to be playing music? But obviously I'm not a student.

  12. #36

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    After a few basic grips for the novice, it's songs, songs, songs. Chord melody with reharm is especially helpful.
    For sure. I think understanding how chords relate to melodies and then how different chords can work with the same melodies really helped me bust out of being a chord symbol player.

  13. #37

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    For sure. I think understanding how chords relate to melodies and then how different chords can work with the same melodies really helped me bust out of being a chord symbol player.
    For me, the great moments are when, on the bandstand, I play a voicing I've never played before.

    Thinking back, the most significant antecedent to being able to do that (however occasionally) was making the transition from seeing grips to hearing the individual notes in the harmonic context.

    There's a great video done at Lincoln Center where a big band style player demonstrates playing one note-only "chords" on the D string, making the point that that's all the music requires from the guitar. Play two notes together and you're a fancy-pants! But, that, in a way, is the key -- to appreciate the contribution of each note individually.

    Jim Hall is a master of just a few notes, singles, double stops and triads. Nobody comps better -- different, but not better IMO.

    I don't see any way really to get there without playing songs.

  14. #38

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I dunno, Ted Greene always seemed to be playing music? But obviously I'm not a student.
    I never said he did not play music.

    I meant his mentality in study (and therefore in teaching ): he is really into covering everything and obviously has fun in mapping all that in detailed system.

    Thiugh he always seemed to say to students: better do music with less tools , than lean many tools with no music...
    ... but added: but having both many tools and music is great too))))
    Last edited by Jonah; 01-05-2021 at 04:21 AM.

  15. #39

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Hankfan1953
    Is there any good way to memorize all the various jazz chords on guitar and are there any good shortcuts to memorize them all?
    I believe the time-tested method is shape memorization. Each chord type has distinctive shapes in different locations on the neck. Cmaj7 in third position has an unmistakably recognizable shape. Evenly spaced, easy to finger, and solid. Dm7 in fifth position is a barre chord. Am7 in fifth position is simply parallel, or straight lined. G7 in third position is strange and cumbersome. Shapes are held visually in the memory and scoring onto grey tissue comes from mere repetition. Just my theory. Probably wrong. I'd add that since chord shapes are played in sequences, the preceding chord offers memory clues. The muscular memory form repetition of shifting from G7 to Cmaj7 becomes ingrained.

  16. #40

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by vsaumarez
    I believe the time-tested method is shape memorization. Each chord type has distinctive shapes in different locations on the neck. Cmaj7 in third position has an unmistakably recognizable shape. Evenly spaced, easy to finger, and solid. Dm7 in fifth position is a barre chord. Am7 in fifth position is simply parallel, or straight lined. G7 in third position is strange and cumbersome. Shapes are held visually in the memory and scoring onto grey tissue comes from mere repetition. Just my theory. Probably wrong. I'd add that since chord shapes are played in sequences, the preceding chord offers memory clues. The muscular memory form repetition of shifting from G7 to Cmaj7 becomes ingrained.
    Yea, and after years of playing often one ends up going-to the same old time-tested chord shapes over and over again.

    I agree that for a newbie, using this approach is a quick and easy way to play a jazz standard's chord progression. What I have found to be the difficult part is breaking the habit and adding new chord shapes and especially inversions into one's playing after so many years of playing the common voicings.

  17. #41

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    Yea, and after years of playing often one ends up going-to the same old time-tested chord shapes over and over again.

    I agree that for a newbie, using this approach is a quick and easy way to play a jazz standard's chord progression. What I have found to be the difficult part is breaking the habit and adding new chord shapes and especially inversions into one's playing after so many years of playing the common voicings.
    If "Cmaj7" brings to mind only the usual grips, it will be difficult to break free.

    If, on the other hand, "Cmaj7" brings to mind C E G B and, secondarily, D and A, and then a thought about F# --- and you know where all those notes are -- then you're looking for two, three or four choice notes, not a grip.

    At that point, you can decide to leave the root for the bassist, pick the octave you want to comp in, pick a few notes to start with and then decide how you're going to create a melodic comping line with nice voice leading. The idea is for the comping to have some melody of its own -- it should be interesting in its own right.

    How do you get there? Learn the notes in the chords you use, the extensions and tensions in every key. It's a lot of work. Jim Hall did it.

  18. #42

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    If "Cmaj7" brings to mind only the usual grips, it will be difficult to break free.

    If, on the other hand, "Cmaj7" brings to mind C E G B and, secondarily, D and A, and then a thought about F# --- and you know where all those notes are -- then you're looking for two, three or four choice notes, not a grip.

    At that point, you can decide to leave the root for the bassist, pick the octave you want to comp in, pick a few notes to start with and then decide how you're going to create a melodic comping line with nice voice leading. The idea is for the comping to have some melody of its own -- it should be interesting in its own right.

    How do you get there? Learn the notes in the chords you use, the extensions and tensions in every key. It's a lot of work. Jim Hall did it.
    Sound advise and what I've been working on when I play with a piano player (since I don't know any bass players).

    But since 95% of my playing is just with another guitar player, we tend to use mostly the 6th and 5th string root based grips and I have to put in effort to reharmonize the song, mainly to use different top-notes that are more in line with the melody; e.g. using a m11 chord instead of a m7th or m6th when the melody includes the 4th. Fairly simple concept but it still takes me time to break the habit of just going to the common grips I have used for decades.

  19. #43

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    Sound advise and what I've been working on when I play with a piano player (since I don't know any bass players).

    But since 95% of my playing is just with another guitar player, we tend to use mostly the 6th and 5th string root based grips and I have to put in effort to reharmonize the song, mainly to use different top-notes that are more in line with the melody; e.g. using a m11 chord instead of a m7th or m6th when the melody includes the 4th. Fairly simple concept but it still takes me time to break the habit of just going to the common grips I have used for decades.
    Since I almost always play with a bassist, I wrote that post from that point of view. You're quite right that it's different if there is no bassist and you, as the guitarist, want to sketch a bass part.

    The need to play a bass line severely restricts how you play the rest of the harmony. I don't do this much, but when I try, the issue is to find notes I can reach. The whole thing becomes more complicated. I end up, often, relying on well worn grips -- to free up enough of my brain to figure out how to do anything with both bass and chords. If I were to focus on it, I'd probably have to laboriously work things out one song at a time with the expectation that 50 or so tunes in, I'd have it generalized. Then, when a bassist shows up, throw it all out and go back to what I posted about.

    Yet another reminder that guitar is hard.

  20. #44

    User Info Menu

    I started by playing memorized chord shapes to the progressions of jazz standards. Later I was able to change the inversion or add/remove notes as the chord progression became firmly memorized.

    Always try to memorize something with a use in mind.
    Try memorising random words in a dictionary. Very difficult. Now memorize those words in a sentence. see them in a conversation and they will stay with you.
    Last edited by guitaroscar; 01-12-2021 at 08:28 PM. Reason: spelling

  21. #45

    User Info Menu

    Many years ago, I used the Aebersold LPs called “ii-V7-I in every key” or “blues in all keys” to incorporate new voicings into my toolbox. If I learned a new voicing for a 13b9 chord, I would place it in a context - iim9 -> V13b9 -> IMaj9 - and then play it with the backing track in all keys - many times. You can do the same thing today with Band in a Box or iRealB.

    Or find a very patient friend that plays bass or piano and offer them free drinks/pizza to run the sequences with you.

  22. #46
    My first lesson with Mick Goodrick I was instructed to find ALL the C TRIADS on the guitar. I found 111. I looked at it kind of like a puzzle. As far as 7th chords with tensions or COLOR NOTES. I think I would SIMPLIFY!!! Is it major or minor? Dom7 or MAJ>7? Set your goal to be a really GOOD COMPER FIRST! COMP IS SHORT FOR ACCOMPANYMENT! Knowing the 3rd and 7 th and only the root if there isnt a bass player will get you pretty far I think. Or team up with a buddy and form a jazz guitar DUO. Joe Pass taught the CAGED system. Once you learn these 5 BASIC FORMS LEARN TO TRANSPOSE THEM! Figure out how to go UP THE NECK AND ACROSS THE NECK COMBINE THEM THATS ABOUT ALL THERE IS!!! WHEN IN DOUBT LAY OUT!!! AS FAR AS COMPING LEAVE THE SOLOIST PLENTY OF OPEN SPACE!!! REPEATED BEHAVIOR WILL GIVE YOU MUSCLE MEMORY!!! USE POSITIVE SELF TALK TO KEEP IT SIMPLE REPEAT!!! ALL THE GREAT PLAYERS WERE BEGINNERS AT ONE TIME JUST LIKE YOU!!! BUT THEY NEVER GAVE UP!!! I would CERTAINLY LEARN TO READ MUSIC AND GET A REALLY GOOD TEACHER YOU LIKE!!! NOW YOU ARE ALL SET!!! JUST DO IT!!!!

  23. #47

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    Yea, and after years of playing often one ends up going-to the same old time-tested chord shapes over and over again.

    I agree that for a newbie, using this approach is a quick and easy way to play a jazz standard's chord progression. What I have found to be the difficult part is breaking the habit and adding new chord shapes and especially inversions into one's playing after so many years of playing the common voicings.
    The process of building chord and progression vocabulary is the same. Recall comes from practicing in context. I don't think you should try to 'remember' what you know or have learnt. It just needs to happen. In some senses, the less you know (or have stored), the faster the recall, the more it frees up the creative juices. Just my theory. Being realistic about one's capacity for storage and recall is important. It's different in all of us.

  24. #48

    User Info Menu

    I've been trying to take just one chord variety & see what other possibilities it could be.
    I'm working through Bret Willmot's book "Complete book of Harmony Theory & Voicing" lately & you can get some mileage out of one chord shape by relating it to many different chord varieties.

    I'll give you an example. Lets take a C7(9). No root in the chord & the voicing is 3, b7, 9, 5 ( E, Bb, D, G ). Played on strings 5,4,3,2. Common E-7b5.

    You can call it a C9 - ( 3, b7, 9, 5 )
    you can call it a E-7b5 - ( 1, b5, b7 , b3 )
    you can call it a G-6 - ( 6, b3, 5, 1 )
    you can call it a F#7b9#5 - ( b7, 3, #5, b9 )

    Same notes, same shape, many different chord varieties & scales.

    As far as memory goes I just try to relate the lowest note in the chord to whichever chord variety.......Root - E-7b5, 3rd - C9 etc....
    Last edited by gratay; 01-15-2021 at 05:50 AM.

  25. #49

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by gratay
    I've been trying to take just one chord shape & see what other possibilities it could be.
    I'm working through Bret Willmot's book "Complete book of Harmony Theory & Voicing" lately & you can get some mileage out of one chord shape by relating it many different chords.

    I'll give you an example. Lets take a C7(9). No root note in the chord & the voicing is 3, b7, 9, 5 ( E, Bb, D, G ). Played on strings 5,4,3,2.

    You can call it a C9 - ( 3, b7, 9, 5 )
    you can call it a E-7b5 - ( 1, b5, b7 , b3 )
    you can call it a G-6 - ( 6, b3, 5, 1 )
    you can call it a F#7b9#5 - ( b7, 3, #5, b9 )

    Same notes, same shape, many different chord varieties.

    How I try & remember is to relate the lowest note in the chord to the chord variety.......e.g If you are calling the lowest note a b7 then it's a 7b9#5
    I used to say somewhere her some kind of the jazz harmony motto 'any chord (as a shape/voicing) = and any chord (as function)'
    By function I do not mean classical functions (T,S,D) - I mean the way chord functions which in jazz is much more expanded....

    for example Cm7 can be associated with particular shape or voicing but also can be an idea of a minor 7th dominant chord .which puts us in various contexts...

    I even made sort of excersise... you take familiar shape like xx3535 (you can associate in with the shape of F6 inversion and then you just put different basses under it (all 12) and different harmonies/voice-leadings around it (this is important - it should have horizontal context!)... and just listen how it works... I trust only ear (and ear puts us in particular context too)

    and eventually you may have a shape of F6 but the funcion of G9sus4 or Bb9maj7 (very sweet voicing by the way) or Cadd9,11,13 of just F6 or Bdim7b9 or.. whatever works for your ears....

    Depending on ear I put in different conventional contexts like ii-V-I or IV-I or I-vi etc. or as modal vibe chord associating it with sound or just liked how ot worked without figuring out too much

  26. #50

    User Info Menu

    You can call it a C9 - ( 3, b7, 9, 5 )
    you can call it a E-7b5 - ( 1, b5, b7 , b3 )
    you can call it a G-6 - ( 6, b3, 5, 1 )
    you can call it a F#7b9#5 - ( b7, 3, #5, b9 )


    Some other possibles.

    E7(#9/b5) - (1,b5,b7,#9)
    Abma9+(#11) - (#5,9,#11,7)
    Fma13sus - (7,4,13,9)
    G13/#9 - (13,#9,5,1)
    Bbma13/#11 - (#11,1,3,13)

    Incomplete voicings can sometimes cover on their own but they also can be supplemented by a preceding or post-ceding chord that fills in missing details.