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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Well, I'm game. Let's choose something with a really strong melody, something that'll stand up without lyrics (because presumably we're not going to sing it).

    Also, do you want to try some soloing? If you use that Audacity program you can put down the backing and play over it. Way to go.
    "Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out" would be a good one.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Good idea!

    See what crusoe thinks.

    (I had Careless Love in the back of my mind. Simple progression that's easy to beef up with maj7s, ii-Vs, sec doms, tritone 7b5s, diminisheds, etc)

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Good idea!

    See what crusoe thinks.

    (I had Careless Love in the back of my mind. Simple progression that's easy to beef up with ma7s, ii-Vs, sec doms, tritone 7b5s, and diminisheds, etc)
    That's another goodie. Simple, straightforward, but just enough intereting chord moves to be a blues, but a little different.

  5. #54

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    But Down n Out is a very strong tune and not too predictable. You might have a point. Got minors in it too.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    There's a big difference. Jazzing a blues is just putting in extended chords like 9ths and 13ths, etc, and playing extended lines that outline those chords. And it generally sounds like a blues should but with more subtle sounds. But the progressions don't have to be 12 bars, they could be 8 or 16, and so forth.

    Jazz players playing blues is like this. Sandu is just a straightforward jazz-blues 12-bar progression, nothing fancy, but the playing style isn't at all straightforward!

    Still not getting the difference? What makes that video "a blues" instead of "jazz"? Like, if I'm in a trio and the leader calls out "lets do a blues in A"... wth does that mean? As opposed to "a jazz" in A? lol

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    Still not getting the difference? What makes that video "a blues" instead of "jazz"? Like, if I'm in a trio and the leader calls out "lets do a blues in A"... wth does that mean? As opposed to "a jazz" in A? lol
    They are using the 12-bar blues form, see my post no. 44.

    You seem a bit confused about this. They are playing jazz, just using a blues chord progression to do it. Jazz musicians have written hundreds of tunes using some kind of blues chord sequence, that is basically what they mean by a blues.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    Like, if I'm in a trio and the leader calls out "lets do a blues in A"... wth does that mean?
    That he's trying to keep horn players off the bandstand.



    But yeah, a "blues" is a type of music, and also an accepted form--12 bars. So a "blues in A" is a standard 12 bar form in the key of A. In jazz, there's a lot of variations, so obviously you have to listen...

    There's no such thing as playing a "jazz" in A. I guess you could do an open ended improv thing based in A, but that'll probably ending up sounding more like some hippie band peaking on shrooms than jazz.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I guess you could do an open ended improv thing based in A, but that'll probably ending up sounding more like some hippie band peaking on shrooms than jazz.
    I believe the Grateful Dead discussion is in another thread.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    They are using the 12-bar blues form, see my post no. 44.

    You seem a bit confused about this.
    Indeed. That's why I asked. It's called a "question", it's a means of gathering information.


    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    They are playing jazz, just using a blues chord progression to do it. Jazz musicians have written hundreds of tunes using some kind of blues chord sequence, that is basically what they mean by a blues.
    Ok. So. If a bunch of jazzers play a 12-bar progression, it's blues. If they play a I-IV-V, it's blues. And if bluesers play a ii-V-I, it's jazz? Is that how YOU are defining it? It's a serious question.

    And if that IS how you are defining it, then we can further ask, what makes something a "bluesy jazz" as opposed to a "jazzy blues"...

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I have. I like this too. I transcribe things I like. Plus, this doesn't have as many "How in the living fuck did he do that?" moments, because I can watch and listen. Win-win
    fair point :-)

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I probably will start today, but don't expect anything written out nicely. That's like school. I spend my whole life in school, I don't need to be in it at home too

    When I say "transcribe," I really mean scribble down some stuff so I remember as I steal all the parts I like.
    quite right

    to be completely fair and not at all childish in my position as a postgraduate student of music pedagogy, writing out solos is for dorks. (Or for great readers with poor musical memory.)

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    Indeed. That's why I asked. It's called a "question", it's a means of gathering information.




    Ok. So. If a bunch of jazzers play a 12-bar progression, it's blues. If they play a I-IV-V, it's blues. And if bluesers play a ii-V-I, it's jazz? Is that how YOU are defining it? It's a serious question.

    And if that IS how you are defining it, then we can further ask, what makes something a "bluesy jazz" as opposed to a "jazzy blues"...
    I was just trying to answer your question in terms of “what do jazz musicians mean when they say ‘let’s play a blues’”. As far as I know, I was using the commonly-accepted definitions of what they mean. I don’t think I can add anything further.
    Last edited by grahambop; 03-03-2020 at 05:44 PM.

  14. #63

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    They both play 12-bar stuff but they play it differently !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  15. #64

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    Since people are posting their own, here's My Babe, from Melody Messenger.

    I tried to keep the feeling of the blues guitar tradition by opening and closing in E with typical open string thingies, and keep interest by changing keys. All made up then and there IIRC. The single string solos are in the 'jazz' lexicon.

    (The final cut on the CD ends in heretic-like fashion on that F Maj 7 #11 with sustain. Maybe I shouldda left it alone? Too late now)...



  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    Since people are posting their own, here's My Babe, from Melody Messenger.

    I tried to keep the feeling of the blues guitar tradition by opening and closing in E with typical open string thingies, and keep interest by changing keys. All made up then and there IIRC. The single string solos are in the 'jazz' lexicon.

    (The final cut on the CD ends in heretic-like fashion on that F Maj 7 #11 with sustain. Maybe I shouldda left it alone? Too late now)...



    I like this a whole lot.

  17. #66

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    Thanks, Jeff.

    I feel like if you're going to play jazz there's no getting around the blues (and swing) element. You can go far afield----you're supposed to, when you find your voice and speak in it, but there ought to be references at least that indicate you know and have dug the basics.

    All these people like Anthony Braxton---it's totally cool, and I'd like to get something out of it, too. But I respond more viscerally to masters who really came out of the aforementioned. Monk, Bird, Pops, Ornette knew the blues. Ahmad Jamal brought a sophistication and touch, but Night Mist Blues couldn't be mistaken for anything else. Dizzy denigrated his blues sensibility in his autobiog---but it was there, had to be.

    There are players who have made lasting contributions who didn't go there, and that's cool too. Good is good and original is original. I respect honesty and self-investigation and if you don't feel a thing you don't feel it. For me, though, it's plasma. You don't have to go back to the old ways--can't and shouldn't try to stop the clock and hold back progress ('retro' people---ugh!). But the plasma will survive. It's too basic, too important not too...

  18. #67

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    Getting silly on non standard form "blues," hank Williams' "lovesick blues."

    Yep, I'm singing.


  19. #68

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    "Careless Love" and "Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out" are both great
    songs. We're not limited in any way. It's just a way to keep "the old noodle" working...


  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

    Yep, I'm singing.
    Cheers, Jeff, that was great, I was playing along to it!

    (Keep her sassified :-)
    Last edited by ragman1; 03-08-2020 at 07:46 AM.

  21. #70

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    Something to glance over

    Jazzin' up old Blues Tunes-down-jpg

  22. #71

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    V-e-r-y late night effort...


  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    V-e-r-y late night effort...

    great rendition!

  24. #73

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    Ragman1, your music is absolutly great. Here's my first draft of the chords.
    Still a bit wobbely...



    Jazzin' up old Blues Tunes-nobody-jpg
    Last edited by crusoe; 03-05-2020 at 01:18 PM.

  25. #74

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    Gil did it:


  26. #75

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    I thought at first this belonged in the '70s thread, but I like it here, b/c it's a classic example of expanding but staying true to the blues feeling. A really sweet Jerry Ragavoy tune, some really nice jazzy voicings for the horns, an excursion into R&B/boogaloo---and through it all classic Butterfield. I love his covers and rootsy stuff also, but this shows real dimension and growth:


  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by crusoe
    first draft
    I think it's okay. Is that Gm6/F#m6 right? With the tune, I mean..

    I think it goes like this:

    GM7/F#m7 - Bm6 - Am7/E9 - Am9
    C6/C#o - GM7/Eb9/D9/Db9 - Em6....

    Not sure after that :-)

    (I take it the Bm6 is an E9 over B. It's unusual to have a major ii-V before a minor chord but it's jazz so it only makes it more interesting!)

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I think it's okay. Is that Gm6/F#m6 right? With the tune, I mean..

    I think it goes like this:

    GM7/F#m7 - Bm6 - Am7/E9 - Am9
    C6/C#o - GM7/Eb9/D9/Db9 - Em6....

    Not sure after that :-)

    (I take it the Bm6 is an E9 over B. It's unusual to have a major ii-V before a minor chord but it's jazz so it only makes it more interesting!)
    GM7 stands for Gmaj7, sorry. (First in the chords-pics)
    Em6 (one measure) Am6/F#m6.

    The End of the song is of course slightly different.

  29. #78

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    This is what it sounds like. I've put some bass in and left the chords fairly loud so we can hear them. Happy with it?

    GM7/F#m7 - Bm6 - Am7/E9 - Am9
    C6/C#o - GM7/Eb9/D9/Db9 - Em6 - Am6/F#m6


  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    This is what it sounds like. I've put some bass in and left the chords fairly loud so we can hear them. Happy with it?

    GM7/F#m7 - Bm6 - Am7/E9 - Am9
    C6/C#o - GM7/Eb9/D9/Db9 - Em6 - Am6/F#m6

    GREAT JOB...wonderful.
    What shall I say ?
    Thanks a lot.

  31. #80

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    All right, but are you happy with it? Does it sound like what you wanted?

    (I've got to admit I quite like it myself. I like the Am6/F#m6 at the end )

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    All right, but are you happy with it? Does it sound like what you wanted?

    (I've got to admit I quite like it myself. I like the Am6/F#m6 at the end )
    I'm very happy with it and it's your turn now to suggest a song...if you want to continue.

    Here's something to listen to: Luke Jordan

  33. #82

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    Yes, I did like that one!
    Last edited by ragman1; 03-08-2020 at 07:44 AM.

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Well, we could just turn this into a let's-play-our-favorite-blues-songs, etc, but, as this is the forum and supposed to be somewhat educational, I think probably I ought to stick to our remit and reharm blues progressions.

    Let's stick to it and "Careless Love" it is


    C - G7 - C - %
    C - % - G7 - %
    C - C7 - F - %
    C - G7 - C - %

    If this is too much for you just say so. We can limit it any time. Up to you.

    I only waited for your choice.
    I really like your music.
    Last edited by crusoe; 03-08-2020 at 10:54 AM.

  35. #84

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    I like this one. New guy doing an old one. There's some quite sophisticated stuff going on there.


  36. #85

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    I just like that performance, by the way, I'm not suggesting it to do. I'd rather try something in minor now. I'll do it later.

  37. #86

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    They haven't really 'jazzed it' much, have they?

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    They haven't really 'jazzed it' much, have they?
    nope

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I just like that performance, by the way, I'm not suggesting it to do. I'd rather try something in minor now. I'll do it later.
    I started out that way "about a hundred years ago".
    The whole McTell,Lipscomb,Fuller- world of wonderful Fingerpicking.
    I paid good money for all those Stefan Grossmann-Books
    and I still love ragtime-blues.

    Good choice, man.

    I'm working on careless love.

    <em>

  40. #89

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    Tell us when you're ready :-)

  41. #90

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    Ok, Ragman1, here's my doodle

    C6 / Dm6 G11 Dm6 / C6 / C13 G7
    C6 / G11 D13b9 / Dm6 / Ebm6 Dm6
    C6 / Gm7 Gm6 / Fma7 Fma6 / Fm7 Fm6
    C6 / Dm6 / C6 / G7#5b9


    Last edited by crusoe; 03-08-2020 at 11:02 AM.

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I like this one. New guy doing an old one. There's some quite sophisticated stuff going on there.


    Takes me back. I lifted that song from a Victoria Spivey LP back around 1970 ....

  43. #92

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    Hello,

    I'm a newbie here ... but really enjoying this discussion. Thank you for the learning opportunities!

    Careless Love was mentioned and I remembered just seeing this last week. Unlike any version I've ever heard, but very nice IMO. Just another take on "jazzing the blues". It's a long video, but I've tried to link right to the song ... it's from 24:40 to 28:34 ... Tim Lerch. Not sure if Telecasters are allowed here though ... ;-) ... respectfully.

    John



  44. #93

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    coopman -

    Welcome. Thanks for that vid - highly useful, I should think. Tele's are acceptable :-)

    50s Jazz Guitarists Using Telecasters

    plus a lot more modern players.





  45. #94

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    Do I see one of those "Charlie Christian Pick Ups" on the Tele ?
    (like Barney Kessel)
    Love that kind of swing...great post, coopman.


  46. #95

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    What about some Snooks for our next Jazz-Up ?


  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    If you want. He's playing it in C with a capo on the 5th, which makes it in F.

    C - F - C - C7
    F - % - C - C/Ab7
    G7 - F - C/F - C/G7

    How do you want to do it?
    I do it in F without the Capo.But listen please. That song was just an idea. If you have another, I'm game.
    This should be fun.

  48. #97

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    This one's fine. It's been a favorite for years :-)

  49. #98

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    What do you think ?
    Chords are of the 13th, m6 and m7 varieties.
    The sound is lousy, the playing sucks...another smash

    I take it as a basic idea to work on it later.

  50. #99

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    I can hear what you're trying to do... but what are you trying to do? Is it a solo?
    Last edited by ragman1; 03-11-2020 at 11:10 PM.

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I can hear what you're trying to do... but what are you trying to do? Is it a solo?
    It's a basis for fillings (when it's finished) and the essence of the song.
    It could be played (with variationes) behind a singer.
    The first few notes are for instance part of an F6 arpeggio,
    then fill and Bb13, fill and F13, fill and Bb13,fill and F9 at the end.
    Working my way from this idea... ev'rything's wide open.