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  1. #1

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    Hi all,
    I feel very stupid to ask, but while studying/practicing "30 days to better jazz guitar" I already got stuck with the basics (page 13 in this book).
    Pentatonic has the intervals R-m3-P4-P5-m7.
    Then the idea is to use this scale to solo over m7, 7 and maj7 chords (cfr page in this book).
    But if the interval of pentatonic are fixed, what does it mean to use this scale to solo over m7, 7 and maj7 chords?
    I got stuck when wanting to start solo on Summertime (page 41: Dm7 - D7 - Gm7 - Em7 - A7alt. - ...).

    Thanks so much for any tips as I look forward to continue studying/practicing.
    Cheers, sam

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    There's a pro here who does a lot with Pentatonics and did more back in the day I guess. Reg... Check out his YouTube channel.

    Anyway, the gist of a lot of it is basically playing what he calls Dorian pentatonic for minor and Lydian pentatonic for major types.

    Gmaj7 would be F#ABDE (as if the IV of DMAJ pentatonic)

    Am7 would be ABDEG (ii of Gmaj)

    Dominant types are 9th arps (5 notes= pentatonic)

    Altered is those same dom 9th pentatonics a tritone away.

  4. #3
    Reg523 is his YouTube handle. There's some great playing there. Anyway, all of the superfast 16th note fills which are too fast to see/hear are basically this pentatonic approach . A lot of the altered stuff especially.

  5. #4

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    Here's something I give my students. Hope it helps. Let me know if you have any questions.

    Tip: The intervals of the scale are based on the chord it's being played over.

    pentatonics.pdf
    Last edited by Dana; 01-03-2020 at 10:47 AM.

  6. #5

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    Perhaps this will help:

    Using just standard major (1 2 3 5 6) and minor (1 b3 4 5 b7) pentatonics:

    Cma7 - C D E G A or G A B D E

    Cm7 - C Eb F G Bb or G Bb C D F

    C7 - C D E G A or C Eb F G Bb or even both scales combined C D Eb E F G A Bb

  7. #6

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    In Vic Juris (rip) video "All That Jazz" he shows a very cool easy application over a 2/5/1 progression. Take Dminor 7/ G7 alt (b13 #9) to C major 7. Use the Aminor pentatonic shape (A, C, D, E, G) over first the D minor 7th. Then move the same pentatonic up a half step (Bb pentatonic) for the G7 alt. This gives you Bb =#9, C# =#4 or b5, Eb =#5, F= b7, G# =b9...Finally another half step up (B pentatonic) for the C major 7th. B Gives you the major 7th, D the ninth, E the major 3rd, F# the #4 (think lydian) and A the 6th. Moving the same shape up a half step at a time gives some very hip altered notes while playing a simple shape we all learned in rock and roll. BTW the whole video is excellent.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana
    Here's something I give my students. Hope it helps. Let me know if you have any questions.

    Tip: The intervals of the scale are based on the chord it's being played over.

    pentatonics.pdf
    I'd think I'd find that more useful if instead (or in addition) it didn't fix that scale and move the chords, but if it fixed the chords and moved the scales. Took, say, a ii-V-I in C and looked at pents over it .
    Then:

    1. In C, there are three minor chords and so three minor pents. (ii=Dm, iii=Em, vi=Am)

    2. All work over the ii chord:
    Dm pent over Dm (m7 add 4 sound)
    Am pent over Dm (m11 sound)
    Em pent over Dm (m13 sound)
    As you go Dm pent -> Am pent -> Em pent, the sound gets more into the upper extensions.

    2. All work over the I chord.
    Am pent over C (6/9 sound)
    Em pent over C (Maj13 sound)
    Dm pent over C (Csus sound -- note the sus4)
    Again, ordered from most vanilla to most strawberry

    Plus! Bm pent over C (lydian sound)

    3.Over G7 the one that's the most fun is
    Bbm pent over G7 (altered sound)
    Another would be Abm6 pent over G7 (Ab B Db Eb *F*) -- another altered sound.

    Don't forget there are many (hundreds?) different kinds of pentatonic scales.

  9. #8

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    I disagree. The OP thought the intervals were 'fixed'. The example I gave shows how the same scale changes intervals based on the chord it's being played over. Changing the keys of the scales just seems to over complicate things, IMO.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana
    I disagree. The OP thought the intervals were 'fixed'. The example I gave shows how the same scale changes intervals based on the chord it's being played over. Changing the keys of the scales just seems to over complicate things, IMO.
    Ah, well, different strokes.

    Another dominant example is to take the F#m pent and drop the F# to Fnat (Fnat A B C# E) over a G7 (lydian dominant sound). No idear what to call that scale.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    There's a pro here who does a lot with Pentatonics and did more back in the day I guess. Reg... Check out his YouTube channel.

    Anyway, the gist of a lot of it is basically playing what he calls Dorian pentatonic for minor and Lydian pentatonic for major types.

    Gmaj7 would be F#ABDE (as if the IV of DMAJ pentatonic)

    Am7 would be ABDEG (ii of Gmaj)

    Dominant types are 9th arps (5 notes= pentatonic)

    Altered is those same dom 9th pentatonics a tritone away.
    Yes, and I find it even easier to explain by simply suggesting that for a major chord (ma7, 6th, 6/9 etc) use the major pent based on the root and one based on the 5th. Same for the Minor 7th - minor pent based on the root and again from the 5th. For Dominant it's a Dom9 arp (pent) and for alt move it up a TT.

    It gets way more complicated if you want to go there, see Ramon Ricker ...

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    I'd think I'd find that more useful if instead (or in addition) it didn't fix that scale and move the chords, but if it fixed the chords and moved the scales.
    I find my students have an easier time if they don’t have to transpose the scales while at the same time trying to determine the intervals in relation to the chords. Why add another level of complexity.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Ah, well, different strokes.

    Another dominant example is to take the F#m pent and drop the F# to Fnat (Fnat A B C# E) over a G7 (lydian dominant sound).
    Not sure how this answers the OP’s question. He’s obviously still struggling to learn the basic minor pentatonic and it’s uses over different chords. I don't see how altering the intervals helps, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    No idear what to call that scale.
    Lydian b7 Pentatonic.

  13. #12

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    Here's a link to A minor pentatonics, hope it helps. I use them quite a bit over blues, there's all kinds of backing tracks on youtube, here's one below! They're great to use as you can play notes of the pentatonic scale throughout the whole track. I think most guitar players start out with pentatonics at some point!


    http://www.paultauterouff.com/Lessons/minpent.pdf


  14. #13

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    Just to make sure we are actually addressing OP question, which is maybe way more simple that some people interpreted.

    @same: I think that in that exercise, you are supposed to improvise using the two shapes of the Dm pentatonic all over the tune. That means that you do not have to change scale, or think in terms of modes of that scale. You simply need to phrase using the two shapes you learned over the whole tune. Clearly, since the tune is composed of different chords, the notes of the scale will feel different according to which chord is in the background.

    As a more advanced exercise, you can practice the enclosure (or the other pattern to create tension) over dominant chords like A7-alt, and then try to resolve tension when you get to Dm7.

    Ll.

  15. #14

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    Vic gives his spin.


  16. #15

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    Love this thread. Just had this topic (re)explained to me as I sort of knew of it but not really how to use it. Plenty to work on but it's ear work for me mainly...important not to go bending lots of blues lines over the ii-V-I to get it sounding decent, and to transition/resolve appropriately, The PDF from Dana and that Vic Juris video shining some light on this for me - thanks all. My new year's resolution is to slow down and learn stuff deeply so as to nail things in my aging brain and fingers rather than trying too hard to fake "progress".

  17. #16

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    I think what you might be looking for is the concept I call "shifty"... maybe someone can identify the canonical theory concept name for this?

    The get the idea, start with shifty triads.
    Example, C major - C E G as in x x 10 9 8 x
    If you play that while the bass plays an A underneath, that triad has shifted from being C major to A m7. If the bass plays a D under it shifts to D11... same collection of pitches takes different harmonic roles.

    Shifty pents can do a similar kind of thing, except instead of holding place like the triad and shifting the harmonic context around it, you can shift the pent pattern itself - in this example it moves in contrary motion to the chords.

    Example, for a ii-V(biialt)-I-VI like Ebm7 D9b5 Db69 Bb(13), play major pents Db, D, Eb, and E (descending sounds good with these).

    Ebm7 (11 x 11 11 11 11) play Db major pent (Db Bb Ab F Eb Db)
    D9b5 (10 x 10 9 9 x) play D maj pent (D B A Gb E D)
    Db69 (9 x 8 8 9 x) play Eb maj pent (Eb C Bb G F Eb)
    Bb(13) (6 x 6 7 8 x) play E maj pent (E Db B Ab Gb E)

    Mechanically, the major pent pattern is just being shifted up chromatically, but harmonically these pitches are expressing altered notes of those chords with just a very light "outside" type of sound.

    Like the shifty triad, where you can't really think of the triad as being "major" when the bass and harmonic context has shifted, the "major pent" patterns may also likely become something else when shifted.

  18. #17

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    I use 2 Pentatonic patterns, which means I use 10 patterns, right. Pentatonics have 5 notes... two patterns with 5 versions of each makes 10.

    One you have these simple patterns together.... you can move them around to work with other chord references.
    I'm posting with G min being the starting note or degree.... just because they fit easily on fretboard diagrams.

    I also use a few other relationships , harmonic relationships...

    The first example is Gmin... (Aeolian) and Bbmaj. (Ionian). This relationship is very standard Maj. and Min. Relative Functional harmony. Think Cmaj7 and it's relative Minor... Amin7. And you can flip the relationship around.... Amin7 and it's Relative Maj7... Cmaj7. But I changed to Bbmaj and Gmin so the examples fit on the guitar fretboard.

    Anyway the 2nd example used Gmin (Dorian) and Bbmaj (Lydian). This is the same functional harmony ...relative relationships. But now using Dorian Minor. as the Relative Min of Bbmaj. Lydian.
    It's a Modal thing.... don't worry about it. (if you want more, I have all the info.)
    The advantage of G Dorian is that It also work great with Melodic Min. there's more... but who cares... Here are the two examples.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  19. #18

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    Can you please expand on this a little. When you say you use Lydian to Dorian Relative relationship as compared to Ionian and aeolian... are you using in a camouflaged application still using functional harmony or changing the functional organization?

    I understand the standard relative Major and minor relationship with Aeolian using Ionian functional organization etc.

    So when you use this modal relative relationship.. are you implying the use of using Lydian functional organization for Lydian and then Dorian functional organization and then creating relationships between the two by using Each becoming target references?

    Hope makes sense. Thanks

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by same
    Hi all,
    I feel very stupid to ask, but while studying/practicing "30 days to better jazz guitar" I already got stuck with the basics (page 13 in this book).
    Pentatonic has the intervals R-m3-P4-P5-m7.
    Then the idea is to use this scale to solo over m7, 7 and maj7 chords (cfr page in this book).
    But if the interval of pentatonic are fixed, what does it mean to use this scale to solo over m7, 7 and maj7 chords?
    I got stuck when wanting to start solo on Summertime (page 41: Dm7 - D7 - Gm7 - Em7 - A7alt. - ...).

    Thanks so much for any tips as I look forward to continue studying/practicing.
    Cheers, sam
    Hey Sam... Don't know the "30 days to better jazz guitar", but the basic concept of using pentatonic pattern your using is that,
    -Over Min7th chords the notes are there... R-m3-4-5-m7.
    -Over Maj7th chords the m3rd and m7th can become Blue Notes, which are very characteristic with Jazz Blues sound and feel.
    -Over Dom7th chords the -3 can also become a Blue Note etc..

    This approach doesn't work in all chord contexts. Generally you would use the Pentatomic pattern from the Target Chord of series of chords.
    If you post the tune version of Summertime... from your example, I'll explain how it can work in that tune or context.

    Just a note.... this approach to playing requires somewhat rhythmically organized use of Pentatonic scales. You need to have Target notes from the pentatonic scale that need to have attack points...

    Your using specific notes from the scale over each chord and using the patter of the pentatonic scale as a single reference, Somewhat like combining different chords with organization. And generally the Blue notes, b3 and b7 help create that blues or jazz blues harmonic reference.

    There is a lot of BS to this organization... sounds like your not really ready to get that technical. But If you want... I'll break it down, I understand most of this BS.

    Most just use trial and error approach and practice and play until they like the results.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brook953
    Can you please expand on this a little. When you say you use Lydian to Dorian Relative relationship as compared to Ionian and aeolian... are you using in a camouflaged application still using functional harmony or changing the functional organization?

    I understand the standard relative Major and minor relationship with Aeolian using Ionian functional organization etc.

    So when you use this modal relative relationship.. are you implying the use of using Lydian functional organization for Lydian and then Dorian functional organization and then creating relationships between the two by using Each becoming target references?

    Hope makes sense. Thanks
    Hey Brook...

    yes....
    Functional harmony...

    Cmaj.(Imaj) the relative Min is Amin (VI-)... they're both Tonic, right. The relative Min of Cmaj is
    Amin. And the relative Maj of Amin. is Cmaj.

    Functional harmony starts with and relates everything to Ionian. Maj.

    If I use the same Diatonic functional organization....and expand through Modal concepts.

    I change Imaj Ionian to Imaj Lydian. Cma7 Ionian becomes Cma7 Lydian.
    The relative Min of Cma7(lydian) is Amin7 (dorian). and,
    The Relative Maj of Amin7 (dorian) is Cma7 (lydian).

    Relative and Borrowing approaches are just mechanical harmonic devices that work within collections of notes and diatonic chords created from those notes.

    Just a note... the Dorian Pentatonic is really just what many call the relative Mixolydian Pentatonic.
    Gmin pentatonic G Bb C D E R-b3-4-5-6 (G-7) is the related II-7 of C7 which has the dominant pentatonic pattern of C D E G Bb ...R-2-3-5-b7 (C7).

    And then when to apply the organization to MM... your get G-ma7 to C7#11....

    Anyway... you could use in a camouflaged approach if you want to keep Ionian functional harmony as reference. Or use as Functional with Lydian organization concepts.... or keep them both going on and have a few layers etc.... usually the latter with more etc...
    Last edited by Reg; 01-28-2020 at 10:25 AM.

  22. #21

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    Ok cool. Thanks for response.

    So you expand functional harmony by using modal references and also have access to the each modes own functional organization.
    So functional harmony is always going on as starting reference and the modal functional organization can also be going on as secondary layer?
    Sorry if not being clear i think I understand what you mean though.
    Cheers

  23. #22

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    Haha m6 pentatonics. You are such a dwps player Reg lol.

    yeah that’s a dead handy shape. You hear Django use it all the time.

  24. #23

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  25. #24

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    Yea... I've been called worse...LOL.

    I'm fairly sure the Op is a beginner And I don't really know how to give info for beginners. But I did want to at least give him some approaches from the dark side. How to trash everything you learned in 30 days to become a jazz guitar player...

    Yea back in the 60's and 70's....(even early 80's), we use to turn up and play warp speed, blazing shred pentatonics. There are obviously a few more options, but while we were melting picks and burnin the frets away... we still had very organized approaches... even if they were a stretch, we still had very harmonic organization, pretty simple Functional Relationships. Somewhat like you were getting into on you vid. with chord sub relationships... just also have all the chords be within a functional organization and having all the notes involved, even if just implied.

    And of course.... we could just get mechanical, or physical ... and really get POP. Yea I'm going nowhere... Liked the Delay. Nice to hear and see you again. Ciao

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Haha m6 pentatonics. You are such a dwps player Reg lol.

    yeah that’s a dead handy shape. You hear Django use it all the time.
    "dwps" ????? Don't worry play Slow? Dorian with Pentatonic shapes ???? inquiring minds

  27. #26

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    It seems like pentatonics is one of the first thing that guitarists learn but I found out about it much much later and still did not use a lot...

    I think jazz musicians used it not only for blues and blue notes but because it consists of 'good' intervals and naturally breakes regular mechanic scalewise movement, that is not so much creative maybe but it can make a person incorporate more melodic thinking through pattern...

    I am not sure if it is right or wrong but I used to think of pentatoncs more like a triad with passing or approaching notes... like Amin pentanocs is Cmajor triad with passing 2 and added 6... sort of c-d-e-a-g (yes like coming from above... it is like basic variant) or Aminor triad with passing forth and 7th from below (g-a-c-d-e)... and so on..
    Maybe it shifts a focus away from its scalar linear quality but it opened more possibilities for me in application and as I was familar with 7th chords and tirads on the fretboard it made my orientation much easier - and - as it seemed to me - more versatile... when you think throu triads you relate through triads... and also I was more flexible that way -- more chance that you alter some note or add extra note... thinking more of where it si going to...
    Last edited by Jonah; 01-31-2020 at 09:19 AM.

  28. #27

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    That seems to work Jonah. Years ago and even now.... Pentatonics become a pattern that has a target note and the pattern is an approach to rhythmically support that target note with a harmonic reference. Like what you implied with triad... but really are just very guitar friendly licks.

    Like using arpeggios to approach each note of a melodic line. And the patterns become a diatonic device to play lots of notes that have that same effect as the arpeggios... but different. The shapes are different and can imply different chords or harmony. They become modal in character. Or they can if one chooses to.

    Generally once you get the mechanics together and get technique up to speed. They just become a mechanical device to.... again, frame or target a melodic line with and the actual notes of the device, the pentatonic patterns change.

    Years ago I use to play faster and longer pen. patterns like I comp.... The lead or top note of each pattern was a simple melodic line and the pentatonic pattern below that line would be chords.

    It's not that simple to do... you do need to have chops and be able to interchange pentatonic shapes to imply whatever chords your using. (Like walking and chewing gum.)

    So you can have a very diatonic melody on top and have fun with chords being implied with pentatonics below.

    That was one of the reasons I used Functional organization...

    Hey Will I think Christian was just calling me a Downward Pickslant hoe

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
    "dwps" ????? Don't worry play Slow? Dorian with Pentatonic shapes ???? inquiring minds
    DownWard Pick Slant, but I like your guesses.

  30. #29

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    Thanks pauln. Slow is a very relative term, right.

    Will.... Dorian with Pentatonic shapes can be way of using Pentatonic shapes with 7 notes, Dorian. Also works with any scale etc... This BS I used 50 years ago... but is still fun.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    ... Hey Will I think Christian was just calling me a Downward Pickslant hoe
    So, then, are you?



    Sent from My Blog Page

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    So, then, are you?



    Sent from My Blog Page
    Good question... I use the technique... or I guess the name uses my technique... So I am within the eyes of some.

    I really don't really care either way... If it helps.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Good question... I use the technique... or I guess the name uses my technique... So I am within the eyes of some.

    I really don't really care either way... If it helps.
    Provided your technique and one you were called up on are the same (I do not know and can not tell) ...

    ... From what I read on the forum, you do it your way for decades, while only recently someone coined a catchy buzzword for sales pourposes. Therefore, you can not be "one" (what I asked before).
    I wonder, while developing it, working on it, what were your thoughts, road map, mile stones, how did you do it? For example, were you about picking on one string from ..., but going from one string to another from ..., trying to hold the pick at some particular angle .... which all in the end resulted in your technique as is?
    Again, not to observe and describe what it is and how you do it, but rather what you were doing to come to it?
    As a matter of fact, I think I remember seeing your clip about technique, where I do not think you mention anything alike DWhatever ...

    Also, what I do not quite get, why was picking technique even mentioned after you posted graphs of some pentatonic shapes?! As far as I am concerned, technique and note choices are/ should be independent. In my view, there is nothing in a graph of pentatonic shape to imply any picking technique. From your previous posts, I thought your poisition was similar. However, in this thread, you accepted technique remark as something natural. What am I missing?

    Sent from My Blog Page

  34. #33

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    Penatonics over "Solar":
    Box

  35. #34

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    Some cool moments there Kris... nice and good choice of tune.

    hey Vladan... when I was kid... part of my daily practice was those spider like drills across all strings. when I was still in my teens... I could shred pentatonics. (I only brought up as a knock on myself).... mindless guitar blazing. But did get me through doors... ( then kicked back out).

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Also, what I do not quite get, why was picking technique even mentioned after you posted graphs of some pentatonic shapes?! As far as I am concerned, technique and note choices are/ should be independent. In my view, there is nothing in a graph of pentatonic shape to imply any picking technique. From your previous posts, I thought your poisition was similar. However, in this thread, you accepted technique remark as something natural. What am I missing?

    Downward pick slanting facilitates alternate picking fast pentatonic licks (2 notes per string). Reg could be accused of utilizing his downward slanting pick technique to do just that.

    .

  37. #36

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    Guilty as charged...do I have to do time, or just a fine.

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Guilty as charged...do I have to do time, or just a fine.

    I think we can write it off as "time served".


    I gotta say thank you for your earlier post with the Dorian/Lydian relational pentatonic idea. That just opened a new door for me relating major/minor pentatonics.

    .

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry
    Downward pick slanting facilitates alternate picking fast pentatonic licks (2 notes per string).
    You say licks, but posted were shapes. Any number of notes per string can be played in any shape. Why presume 2 notes per string licks? Why presume any licks, or techniques if question is about scales over chords?

    Only after Christianm77 introduced technique talk, Reg posted those licks/ patterns.

    Regarding technique it self, if there is downward, there must be upward, isn't it so? In context, are the 2 any different in result? Why presume one over another, or over any other? Maybe it is really about rest strokes?

    I feel like it is suggested to devellop certain type of licks, just because they can be played fast by using certain technique? Isn't that sonewhat "fake" aporoach? I thought we should devellop technique(s), so to be able to play what we want to play. I mean in principle.

    In reallity, in the end, we all play only what we can play.

    Sent from My Blog Page

  40. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Thanks pauln. Slow is a very relative term, right.

    Will.... Dorian with Pentatonic shapes can be way of using Pentatonic shapes with 7 notes, Dorian. Also works with any scale etc... This BS I used 50 years ago... but is still fun.
    Okay, the PDF linked in this post. This is what I've been looking for for a while now. I was gonna post, asking about it.

    (For anyone interested, these are the 16th note fills in reg's videos which are actually so fast that they confound the slowdown feature on YouTube, at least they always have at whatever resolution /bandwidth I'm at here.)

    Anyway, thanks so much. I was wondering what your fingering protocol is on pentatonics?

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    You say licks, but posted were shapes. Any number of notes per string can be played in any shape. Why presume 2 notes per string licks? Why presume any licks, or techniques if question is about scales over chords?

    Only after Christianm77 introduced technique talk, Reg posted those licks/ patterns.

    Regarding technique it self, if there is downward, there must be upward, isn't it so? In context, are the 2 any different in result? Why presume one over another, or over any other? Maybe it is really about rest strokes?

    I feel like it is suggested to devellop certain type of licks, just because they can be played fast by using certain technique? Isn't that sonewhat "fake" aporoach? I thought we should devellop technique(s), so to be able to play what we want to play. I mean in principle.

    In reallity, in the end, we all play only what we can play.

    Sent from My Blog Page

    All true, I suppose... or you could just take it for a wink and a nod between two long-time internet associates.

    .

  42. #41

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    Thanks for leniency... it won't happen again, ooohhh.

    So Vladan... what's the difference between using single notes and creating improve as compared to using larger collections of notes and creating improve. Personally single notes are also just a lick, I can hear chords, scales, arps different licks just as well as I can single notes.

    Analogy, maybe... Your soloing with no volume, and no one can hear, or with volume and can be heard. So is the problem the volume or that no one can hear you. OK maybe not that great, point the volume is not the solo, just as using licks or note collections are not the solo. That solo with no volume could be from the soul and aligned with stars etc... perfect. But is it fake or not real because no one could hear.

    Anyway... personally licks are just like single notes. It still comes down to how one uses them. I like scales, just don't really ever play them, I still like pentatonic licks, they're very guitar stylistic.

    The speed or technical thing seems to always be those that have chops like them, those that don't... don't. Personally, that's not the point. I simply believe musicians need a level of technique just to be able to play in a jazz style. That Speed of Jazz thing I always joke with, is real. It was real 50 years ago. This doesn't mean one needs to play fast... but feels and styles need subdivisions and enough technical skills to create.

    But... while we're developing those skills... talking about how to use pentatonic scales or licks when performing, we're in that moment. Not really worried about performance.... just how to use the patterns in chord progressions.
    The real improv stuff comes latter, when you develop understanding of how to use them. All the options.
    Or at least beat them into your head etc... whatever method works.

  43. #42

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    Hey... Matt
    Cool, yea using a lick or pattern in harmonic context is fun. It's like playing chords with a lead line. Pentatonics have harmonic references... or at least it's very easy to give them harmonic context.

    And yea, I'm very simple... no magic or secrets.

  44. #43
    Yeah. Thanks again. I found that I can see/hear what you doing videos much much better , since actually learning the fingerings etc. the biggest hole remaining at this point , honestly is this pentatonic runs. They are seriously so fast as to be indistinguishable with Youtube slowdown feature. Resolution just isn't high enough at that slower speed.

    Anyway, it's always vastly easier to hear things you can someone play already , some kind of basic level anyway. I know that's obvious to everyone. Just saying.

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    ...So Vladan...

    1. what's the difference between using single notes and creating improve as compared to using larger collections of notes and creating improve.

    2. Analogy, maybe... Your soloing with no volume, and no one can hear, or with volume and can ...

    3. ...I like scales, just don't really ever play them, I still like pentatonic licks, they're very guitar stylistic....

    4. ...The speed or technical thing seems to always be those that have chops like them, those that don't...
    1. Why do you ask me, that question? I was not talking about that issue.

    2. Sorry, I do not understand analogy.

    3. Cool, whatever get's the job done. Isn't it?
    Personally, if playing scale means playing them straight up/ down, I do not do that too often. Not itentionally, at least, I mean, not thinking "Now I am going to play scale".
    On the other hand, the way I think of playing scales, whatever one plays can be seen as pattern made of notes from apropriate scales, where scales are collections of suitably available pitches. No need for naming.
    Three basic patterns are
    - notes in order
    - skipping
    - two, or more at once
    Over time, certain combinations of patterns can become licks.

    4. I do not remember anybody in this thread speaking against speed and playing fast. I surelly was not.
    I said, it is good to have technique to play fast, what one wants to play fast.
    I said, it is not so good to play something just because it is the only thing one is able to play fast, with technique at disposal. Which also does not mean that I do not do it, when I feel like it.

    5. Probably you did not understand my questions and my point of view. Probably my fault, will have to work on my English. Probably, I did not ubderstand your post, one I am replying to.

    To try to clarify ...
    My question was: if there is a shape, for example pentatonic shape, why presume technique and note order?
    The reason behind the question being: any technique can be used, notes can be played in any order. Just because it is 2 notes per string shape, derived licks and patterns do not have to be 2 notes per string. And so on ...

    Sent from My Blog Page

    EDIT: added 3rd pattern
    Last edited by Vladan; 02-04-2020 at 05:35 PM.

  46. #45

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    Hey Vladan... sorry if I didn't understand Question. Also I tend to expand answers, maybe not a good practice.

    So (1) and (2) My analogy was just trying make others aware that we don't all think alike... apples and oranges.

    3) and 4) Fast is just relative term... fast to one is slow to another. Or slow to one is fast to another.

    5) sorry...

    Pentatonics can be played with any notes, any speed, and order etc... But... different shapes and notes have different harmonic implication.

    The picking thing... is very relative with technique. Technique generally isn't musical, it's just the skills use to be musical or play... what one chooses to. There are very different picking techniques... some work better when skipping strings or even when just playing faster.

    OK we got off track... who cares, we're just talking. If you want to get into pentatonics.... I've already gone through most of the possibilities back in the 60's and into the 70's. The results are still the same. Some are just more popular. Back then you couldn't just pull up examples... you had to do the work.

    Generally pentatonic create difficult picking applications. Most guitar players play and use one of the 5 shapes from the Maj and Min version.... some also use the 2nd version I posted above. I like to use pentatonics with 7 notes references... It's just personal choices when we play them.... when someone else plays them, and we're comping, it's generally better to play chords that work with what the soloist is doing or play simple voicings etc...

    Or just do the best you can... Please ask me for more details ....

  47. #46

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    Reg, I think I agree with all you said in above post.

    Regarding my query, why would shape imply picking technique, after all, it was not to you to answer. Christianm77 made the presumption, so he is the one to explain, should he feel like it.

    The query was just an afterthought in a post where I asked you something else. To that question, you already answered.
    Maybe the answer was not what I hoped for, but nevertheless, I do not have more questions for you, for the time being, at least.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana
    Here's something I give my students. Hope it helps. Let me know if you have any questions.

    Tip: The intervals of the scale are based on the chord it's being played over.

    pentatonics.pdf
    Thanks for sharing that PDF!
    I'm curious why you presented the major key options in the form of minor pentatonics.
    I realize that a C major pentatonic scale has the same notes as an A minor pentatonic scale, but is there some advantage to visualizing it as an A minor pentatonic while improvising?

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana
    Here's something I give my students. Hope it helps. Let me know if you have any questions.

    Tip: The intervals of the scale are based on the chord it's being played over.

    pentatonics.pdf
    ...what about Am over F#7alt /dminant chord?

  50. #49

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    There are some nice penta licks on piano ala Mccoy Tyner:

  51. #50

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    Yea Kris,

    So When I use A min pentatonic like that.... I'm basically thing of F#7alt as either the related VI chord or'''

    /C#-7b5 F#7alt / B-7 E7 / A-7 so sometimes with more modern latin grooves...

    / C#7alt F#7alt/ B7alt E7alt./ A-7 / and the A-7 would be a typical A-7 Dorian montuno, or some type of Amin chor pattern vamp.

    Anyway the F#7alt is just part of II V of II- and with a tonal target of A-
    I use pentatonics over Melodic Minor harmonies with thee pentatonic not including the root.

    I think like I've posted before, I use pentatonics with 7 note implications... just like arpeggios, or basic 7th chords.

    Haven't used the McCoy licks in a while... still love them though.