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  1. #1

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    I'm not sure how to frame this question so I'll be understood, but I'll give it a try. I'm a little confused about the use of major I-chord vs a dominant I-chord in a Blues.

    I'm thoroughly familiar with using all dominants in a standard Blues. That's the way I've always heard and played Blues. What I'm talking about is the style where a major I-chord is played everywhere except for bar 4 where a dominant is played to lead into the IV7.

    Mickey Baker's 1st Blues study in his book is hardly recognizable as a Blues except that it follows the 12-bar Blues form. If you try to play it over a typical Blues progression using dominants on the I-chord the melody clashes pretty badly. Throughout the book Baker mentions that a Blues progression is major I-chord for 3 bars, I7 in bar 4 and dominants on the IV and V chords. In other words, a basic Blues progression but using major I-chords except in bar 4.

    Now I'm looking at some Charlie Christian transcriptions and the chord symbols conform to Baker's progression. However, what Christian plays could be played over a dominant I-chord (I think).

    Are there any Blue tunes out there (other than a Parker Blues) where you'd have to stick to major I-chords and would clash if you played dominants? "Blue Monk," for example, can be played using either a dominant I-chord or a major6. In fact, I prefer the sound of a major6 on this particular tune, but not on Blues in general.

    I hope somebody can understand what I'm asking (I'm not sure I'm being clear) and shed some light on this. I can't find an good explanation anywhere on the Internet.

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  3. #2

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    no It’s a very good question !
    and I’m looking forward to getting the answer ... !

  4. #3

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    maj6 and I7 are interchangeable. Bird Blues has maj7 for tonic chord, so b7 might clash there,,,

  5. #4

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    Many Swing-era Blues have a I6 chord.

    Blues No.1 by Mickey Baker (page 33 of the old yellow-cover book) is an interesting composition. It has G6 for four bars, over which he indicates an Em7 run. As you will doubtless know, Em7 and G6 have the same notes.

    But in bar 5 and 6 he indicates a Gm7 run. A C7 or C9 chord there would clash with the F natural in his melody, so instead of chord IV we could have Im7, Gm7. You might think this unusual, but it appears in All Blues by Miles.

    He does the same in bar 9, though up a tone with an Am7 run which should be over a D9 or D7. So, what chord does he expect? Am7? Maybe he likes the clash of a G in the melody (bar 9) against an F# of a D7 chord.

    I think some of those guys weren't too fussed about such clashes, as long as the B natural of the G chord went to a Bb of the C chord, somehow it would all work out. But compare Blues No.1 with his Blues No.3, same page.

    None of this answers your questions, but it's roughly in the same area. And these MB blues heads are really quite good.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    Many Swing-era Blues have a I6 chord.

    Blues No.1 by Mickey Baker (page 33 of the old yellow-cover book) is an interesting composition. It has G6 for four bars, over which he indicates an Em7 run. As you will doubtless know, Em7 and G6 have the same notes.

    But in bar 5 and 6 he indicates a Gm7 run. A C7 or C9 chord there would clash with the F natural in his melody, so instead of chord IV we could have Im7, Gm7. You might think this unusual, but it appears in All Blues by Miles.

    He does the same in bar 9, though up a tone with an Am7 run which should be over a D9 or D7. So, what chord does he expect? Am7? Maybe he likes the clash of a G in the melody (bar 9) against an F# of a D7 chord.

    I think some of those guys weren't too fussed about such clashes, as long as the B natural of the G chord went to a Bb of the C chord, somehow it would all work out. But compare Blues No.1 with his Blues No.3, same page.

    None of this answers your questions, but it's roughly in the same area. And these MB blues heads are really quite good.
    Thanks for your input, Rob. I was hoping to hear from you on this. Baker consistently uses the V minor of any dominant chord either as a substitute chord or the V minor arpeggio over the original dominant chord. But that's not what I'm confused about. Also, I'm referring to Lesson 36 "Blues Solo" (page 39) as a specific example and the whole I6 thing in general.

    You mention that the I6 was common in the swing era. But is that I6 interchangeable with a I7 as princeplanet said above? I don't think that's true in every case. It certainly isn't (to my ear) in Baker's "Blues Solo." Then again, my ear might be pre-conditioned after so many years of listening to more Chicago style Blues.

  7. #6

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    There is a range for the one chord in blues:

    major - bare hard major is rare in both blues and jazz

    seventh - very common in blues and jazz, especially when wanting to stay harmonically "out of the way" of a good soloist, or playing in a group that includes a pianist, or horn section, etc.

    ninth - very common in blues, the ninth on the one pretty much signals "this is blues, probably not jazz"

    sixth - common in blues and jazz

    69 (used as maj7) - common in jazz, used as a sub for the ninth or sixth when wanting to sound more like jazz in progressions that go I ii7 iii7, or I biidim ii7 biiidim iii7. Also for those that make the passing change with bii7b59...
    The ninth and sixth take this change too, but going from bii7b59 to I6 or reversing the change to go from I6 to bii7b59 can sound a little off in some contexts.
    Going from bii7b59 to I9 or the reverse has a settled sound, slightly dark
    Going from bii7b59 to I69 or the reverse has a brighter settled sound
    Compare these chord changes...

    G6 - Am7 - Bm7 (3 x 5 4 5 x) - (5 x 5 5 5 5) - (7 x 7 7 7 7)
    There is not much sense of movement from the G6 to the Am7

    G9 (3 x 5 4 5 x) - Am7 - Bm7
    A more distinct movement

    G69 (3 x 2 2 3 x) - Am7 - Bm7
    A clearer brighter movement


    sixth/7 - very common in jazz, harmonically sophisticated, it easily relates to other chords well; compare these chords...

    (x 10 12 12 12 x) - G major
    (x 10 12 10 12 x) - G seventh
    (x 10 9 10 10 x) - G ninth
    (x 10 x 12 12 12) - G sixth
    (x 10 x 9 10 10) - G 69
    (x 8 9 9 8 x) - G6/F

    Play and hear below how G6/F as the one chord plays well with these nearby chords before moving to the four chord D9...

    (x 8 9 9 8 x) - G6/F
    (x 9 10 10 11 x)
    (x 8 9 9 8 x) - G6/F
    (x 6 7 7 8 x)
    (x 8 9 9 8 x) - G6/F
    (x 9 10 10 11 x)
    (x 8 9 9 10 x)
    (x 8 9 8 11 x) - think of this as Gaug/F with a b3 voiced on top or Db(13)
    (x 7 8 7 8 x) - D9...

    Best way is to play and hear.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  8. #7

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    I guess you take it on a case by case basis. But some guys started using a Bm7 arpeggio over the final G chord - see Blues No.2, especially after using a Cm7 arpeggio against the D7 chord - a very cool thing to do. So the F# of the Bm7 would imply a GMaj7 I chord.

    As a general rule, jazz players like sixes, while Chicago Blues players like flat sevens. There are a million exceptions to that, though.

    You could also see the F# as a "lower auxiliary" to the G, rather than as a genuine major 7th, much like a Bb to B natural (as in MB's Blues Solo measure 1). Any note could have a lower auxiliary, though some were more favoured than others.

    I think chords were more fluid than we tend to imagine they were, especially as regards thirds, fifths, ninths and sevenths.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E Blue View Post
    I'm not sure how to frame this question so I'll be understood, but I'll give it a try. I'm a little confused about the use of major I-chord vs a dominant I-chord in a Blues.

    I'm thoroughly familiar with using all dominants in a standard Blues. That's the way I've always heard and played Blues. What I'm talking about is the style where a major I-chord is played everywhere except for bar 4 where a dominant is played to lead into the IV7.

    Mickey Baker's 1st Blues study in his book is hardly recognizable as a Blues except that it follows the 12-bar Blues form. If you try to play it over a typical Blues progression using dominants on the I-chord the melody clashes pretty badly. Throughout the book Baker mentions that a Blues progression is major I-chord for 3 bars, I7 in bar 4 and dominants on the IV and V chords. In other words, a basic Blues progression but using major I-chords except in bar 4.

    Now I'm looking at some Charlie Christian transcriptions and the chord symbols conform to Baker's progression. However, what Christian plays could be played over a dominant I-chord (I think).

    Are there any Blue tunes out there (other than a Parker Blues) where you'd have to stick to major I-chords and would clash if you played dominants? "Blue Monk," for example, can be played using either a dominant I-chord or a major6. In fact, I prefer the sound of a major6 on this particular tune, but not on Blues in general.

    I hope somebody can understand what I'm asking (I'm not sure I'm being clear) and shed some light on this. I can't find an good explanation anywhere on the Internet.
    I6 and I6/9 chord have the advantage of openness when it comes to the seventh.

    Parker liked Imaj7 and IV7, I7 in bar 4

    Tbh I think the basic modern jazz theory of constructing seventh chords leads to people thinking for about this than they would have in the day.... back then the major type accompaniment chords didn’t have a seventh very often.

    Baker was an old school cat.... this is what he would have known. 6th chords...

    But then you do hear 7 chords too.

    But even on a dom7, major seventh can sound good if it’s played in the right way...

  10. #9

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    Check this weirdness out though. Piano comps dom chords.



    You fail jazz school, Miles.

    TBF Bird’s cool blues melody has a major 7th on both the I and IV with dominants in the comping so he’d fail too. Errol Garner waits for the melody to finish before playing his chords. *ears*.

    See what happens when you ask apparently innocent questions? It’s almost like real music is more complicated than the simple smug rules of jazz theory.

    Seriously what do people think about the fact that if the young Miles auditioned for a jazz school now, he wouldn’t get in?
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-23-2019 at 04:55 PM.

  11. #10
    Thanks for all the responses. I'm still confused, but maybe I'm over thinking this.

    Pauln: I'll have to go over your post with guitar in hand. Looks like some interesting stuff there.

    What I'm getting from Rob and Christian is that 6th chords were the norm back in the day.

    At this stage of the game I'll probably never even play with a bass player let alone play at a jam session. However, I do get together with another guitarist and we've been having discussions about 6th chords vs 7ths on Blues.

    Thanks again.

  12. #11

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    Ad far as I am concerned blues goes like this:

    | I | | I | | I | | I | | IV | ...

    I is major, you can add extensions, or sub to taste. Most usual is I7 in bar 4, for whatever the reason. Also, it is not one steady chord. It's actually a riff. If you can not hear it in Bird, listen to it in Status Quo.

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  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    Ad far as I am concerned blues goes like this:

    | I | | I | | I | | I | | IV | ...

    I is major, you can add extensions, or sub to taste. Most usual is I7 in bar 4, for whatever the reason. Also, it is not one steady chord. It's actually a riff. If you can not hear it in Bird, listen to it in Status Quo.

    Sent from My Blog Page
    The Quo also understand chromaticism and 1st inversion major chords into target root position a semitone higher.

    They just hear it of course :-)

  14. #13

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    I must do an Xmas special on Slade. Underrated musicians....

  15. #14

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    Blues music itself goes beyond rules ...countless examples Miles Trane Monk and beyond then Hendrix and many others ..

    I use all 12 tones in my solos against blues changes ..what wrong notes??..

    the very early "country blues" were just major chords sometime two chords some time three some time just one..

    when jazz got hold of the blues and began moving the changes around like on Stormy Monday..and Parker style progressions..the rules went south so to speak...

    if you want to play MA6 or MA7 as a ONE chord and it sounds good and you can back it up with other harmonic support ..do it..I use wide voiced 6/9 chords in blues progressions and they work fine

    Groups like Steely Dan made a standard MA7 chord sound new and very cool .. today the new "kids" are using all sorts of altered blues sounds..see John Scofield about this
    play well ...
    wolf

  16. #15

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    I think it’s a lot more complicated than that. I get the impression that the history of the musics are much more messy and interesting than we often read in music histories. Also from my experience, most upcoming players now learn their blues starting with John Mayer, Bonamassa or maybe Clapton and SRV and are interested in going into fusion and post-Rosenwinkel music, so the disparity in approaches is super pronounced....

    It’s not that blues started off simple and evolved. Actually there’s several points where blues progressions got simpler.... the 12 bar progression never reflected the rural blues tradition, it was always a tidied up version of what folk musicians were doing. Of course we don’t have too much of that music recorded, so I’m going on what I hear from later artists... and of course we have to consider WC Handy in this.

    In fact if you listen to early blues artists, Ma Rainey and so on, the crossover with jazz is obvious. I’m not sure the two things were so separated back then. Lonnie Johnson with Eddie Lang and Louis Armstrong. Sidney Bechet playing with Josh White in the late 30s and so on....

    By the time Robert Johnson cut his iconic recordings in 36/37, jazz was well established all over the US and the swing era was about to break..... and his music often has progressions we might associate with the jazz of the time.

    in terms of the progressions themselves secondary dominants, #ivo7 and so on were well established in blues progressions of 1920s jazz.... They didn’t always play them.... Sometimes stripped down and simpler, sometimes slightly modified. Early Ellington is worth a look here. There was often a very strong connection with the rural blues tradition to my ears, vocal effects and articulations. Slide guitar and harp does not sound out of place in this music as it would in bebop.

    Later on the music branched off, took different directions, but while jazz and blues I don’t think were precisely the same thing in the pre war era, there was a sense of there being a spectrum from say, Artie Shaw through to say, Blind Lemon Jefferson, with artists like Billie Holiday perhaps being somewhere in the middle. (And as Clapton points out, most of the blues artists he met were actually looking for jazz gigs but ended up playing that music instead.)

    But the big difference that’s really important and not simply decoration is that the IV7 chord in bar 10 is absent in this music, and afaik is a feature of Chicago blues. That is often very hard for people who cut their teeth playing later blues music to get used to, but a good popular example from the later era is Chuck Berry’s Johnny B Goode, which doesn’t go
    To IV in bar 10.

    And it’s unfair to say Parker was the catalyst for removing the blues from jazz - he always referenced the blues even in his more complex compositions- check out the blues lick in confirmation for example - but certainly the players after him like Sonny Stitt developed the more harmonic, classical side of Parker’s music. I believe some artists were keen to distance themselves from that history, and instead look to the future. It’s easy to see why the newly confident and middle class communities in places like postwar Detroit were keen to set that behind them.

    Anyway, just some thoughts....

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Slide guitar and harp does not sound out of place in this music as it would in bebop.
    Have you heard what GG does with Donna Lee...? If not, just wait for it... he switches pickups at 1:49 and then... (!)

    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  18. #17

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    See , this is the thing with ' jazz theory ' , it tries to abstract a set of rules from a music that was never approached that way , not until the late 50s .
    Everything you play depends for it's success on musical context ; so , if your line is strong enough , rhythmic , melodically interesting and you play it with real conviction it will sound good .
    A good accompanist will hear what you're playing and adjust , or at least keep out of the way - like Dizzy on piano when Miles Davis plays that E natural on a F7 chord in ' Now's the time ' - which in any case is an anticipation of the Bb7#11 in the next bar .
    You can be fairly free with your interpretation of chords and the independence of your line but it really depends on context , there are no hard and fast rules .

    There's a famous Parker recording of Slow boat to China , I transcribed it and realised that at one point in the changes , Parker was playing the wrong changes . Not a substitution but a real clanger but you don't notice it because you're caught up in the drama of his lines , the paino is not playing much and is fairly quiet and it's taken pretty fast .

    Incidentally , I saw Slade play live in the early 80s and they were absolutely storming .

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Check this weirdness out though. Piano comps dom chords.
    no weirdness. common bebop practice aka that's what bird did.



    check out the fun right after bird hits the maj7 in bar 1 of his solo.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    no weirdness. common bebop practice aka that's what bird did.



    check out the fun right after bird hits the maj7 in bar 1 of his solo.
    Well yes. I think you missed the sarcasm in my post.

    Anyway, modern jazz theory is definitive, the music is frequently inaccurate.

    Here’s the thing. In the book ‘Early Jazz’ Gunther Schuller is identifying what he sees as mistakes in Louis Armstrong records - IVm chords played against #ivo7 and so on.

    Ethan Iverson suggests a fairly logical rebuttal. What Louis, Miles and Parker did should probably be regarded as correct.

    Now this brings us to the issue of pedagogy. What do you think about the fact that that Miles solo (considered notable enough to be arranged by Red Garland for piano) would get a low mark in any jazz college? That Miles would fail the entrance audition in most likelyhood?

    Is it possible that jazz has become a rationalist community of practice divorced from its roots and more interested in nurturing craftsmanship than creativity?

    And how this relates to the issue of accountability and measurement of outcomes which at least have the aim of making things fair in what maybe an intrinsically unfair situation?

    And if this is fair to some degree how do we address this? I think most jazz educators are aware of these things to some extent, but many don’t seem to be....

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Now this brings us to the issue of pedagogy. What do you think about the fact that that Miles solo (considered notable enough to be arranged by Red Garland for piano) would get a low mark in any jazz college? That Miles would fail the entrance audition in most likelyhood?
    i would think that it's rather pointless to speculate how young player from 1947 would fare in 2019. he did get accepted to juillard though.

    i know nothing about jazz schools these days but 30 years ago i did go to what was probably the best jazz school in the world at that time. of course a 19 year old miles would've been accepted there and then (hey, i did...).

    and none of my teachers would've considered IVm over #IVdim a mistake. these were all world class players, arrangers and theorists as well.

    i mean, this major7 over blues, bIIIdim over V7, IVm over #IVdim is all incredibly basic stuff.

    has jazz education really gone so much downhill since my student days?
    Last edited by djg; 11-24-2019 at 10:03 AM.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    I guess you take it on a case by case basis.

    I think chords were more fluid than we tend to imagine they were, especially as regards thirds, fifths, ninths and sevenths.
    This...
    Testing a Gibson ES335 vs Harley Benton HB 35 (very inexpensive semi hollow body guitar)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fGMIs1wNEA&t=185s

    Jamming the Jazz standard All the things you are
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUzDEct613g&t=3s

    Playing a solo over my friends tune Cookies and Cream
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJHqt_lpyKM

  23. #22

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    And how this relates to the issue of accountability and measurement of outcomes which at least have the aim of making things fair in what maybe an intrinsically unfair situation?
    I think you've hit the nail on the head ( or rem acu tetigisti as Jeeves would say )

    For colleges to get state funding they need to have measurable outcomes and so a fixed and explicit set of musical criteria to measure students against . This is different to , maybe even exclusive of , a living musical culture .

    Miles Davis may well have got into Berklee ( or Trinity Laban ) but I bet Lester Young wouldn't have .

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    i would think that it's rather pointless to speculate how young player from 1947 would fare in 2019. he did get accepted to juillard though.
    But he didn't play jazz at juiliard, if I remember correctly.

    I might remember it wrong though.
    Testing a Gibson ES335 vs Harley Benton HB 35 (very inexpensive semi hollow body guitar)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fGMIs1wNEA&t=185s

    Jamming the Jazz standard All the things you are
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUzDEct613g&t=3s

    Playing a solo over my friends tune Cookies and Cream
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJHqt_lpyKM

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    i would think that it's rather pointless to speculate how young player from 1947 would fare in 2019. he did get accepted to juillard though.

    i know nothing about jazz schools these days but 30 years ago i did go to what was probably the best jazz school in the world at that time. of course a 19 year old miles would've been accepted there and then (hey, i did...).

    and none of my teachers would've considered IVm over #IVdim a mistake. these were all world class players, arrangers and theorists as well.

    i mean, this major7 over blues, bIIIdim over VI7, IVm over #IVdim is all incredibly basic stuff.

    has jazz education really gone so much downhill since my student days?
    I didn’t go to jazz college so cant tell you first hand. Just worked it out using my ears and used my limited grey matter once I got interested to find out what players were really playing rather then a what the books said they were.

    So, I assumed that stuff to be common knowledge among the jazz graduates I know. It isn’t. Those that do know it found it out themselves. It wasn’t taught.

    Also UK aside, you presumably know who Gunther Schuller was, right? And while your professors would have disagreed with him, he was the one who wrote the book....

    It seems like Ethan is discovering this stuff himself, listening and talking to the old players too... so maybe this stuff is less common knowledge than you think. Comments on the forum would seem to suggest so.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by greveost View Post
    But he didn't play jazz at juiliard, if I remember correctly.

    I might remember it wrong though.
    Iirc He was classical. There was no jazz programme until recently.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pycroft View Post
    I think you've hit the nail on the head ( or rem acu tetigisti as Jeeves would say )

    For colleges to get state funding they need to have measurable outcomes and so a fixed and explicit set of musical criteria to measure students against . This is different to , maybe even exclusive of , a living musical culture .

    Miles Davis may well have got into Berklee ( or Trinity Laban ) but I bet Lester Young wouldn't have .
    OTOH the democratisation of education requires accountability.

    There’s nothing accountable about the apprenticeship system. There’s certainly areas of it that are open to critique.

    So can we find another way?

    My ideal lesson as a teacher is when a student comes in and says ‘i was checking this out but what’s going on?’ And we exchange knowledge and do problem solving together. I think transmission teaching of ‘jazz harmony’ achieves very little.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-24-2019 at 09:45 AM.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    So can we find another way?
    stop subsidizing a sector that produces mainly unemployment and poverty?

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Iirc He was classical. There was no jazz programme until recently.

    Exactly how I remember it.
    Testing a Gibson ES335 vs Harley Benton HB 35 (very inexpensive semi hollow body guitar)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fGMIs1wNEA&t=185s

    Jamming the Jazz standard All the things you are
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUzDEct613g&t=3s

    Playing a solo over my friends tune Cookies and Cream
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJHqt_lpyKM

  30. #29

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    When I started playing jazz all I had were pentatonic blues scales and I played them into the ground. Trying to play jazz that way just made me sound hokey. I felt trapped in the blues-scale prison. That's when I noticed in a lot of jazz transcriptions and charts the use of major7 ideas in blues solos. That immediately seemed to put me closer to the blues playing by jazz musicians I'd been listening to. This seems to be one of the steps they took to get beyond the bare-bones blues.

    Traditional blues seems, to me, to be an end-stopped, fossilized musical form that has stopped evolving. Jazz players took the blues form and feel and elaborated on it with a whole range of ideas, including playing major and back cycling, like "Blues for Alice."

    So I think when someone says something like Mickey Baker's blues solo "doesn't seem to be a blues anymore" they are actually correct. It is not a traditional Muddy Waters/Blind Lemon Jefferson blues solo. It is a jazz solo rooted in the blues feeling and concept.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  31. #30

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    OTOH the democratisation of education requires accountability.
    Who says the democratisation of education is at all desirable ? It's just Adornos' Culture Industry .

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    Have you heard what GG does with Donna Lee...? If not, just wait for it... he switches pickups at 1:49 and then... (!)

    Yeah I’m not really into this personally, it’s been posted a few times.

    Respect to GG, he’s obviously an extraordinarily accomplished and versatile player. Also he can certainly play those changes.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pycroft View Post
    Who says the democratisation of education is at all desirable ? It's just Adornos' Culture Industry .
    I’d rather have a democratised education system than an elitist an opaque one. Which is not to say the way that we have attempted to democratise education has been successful.

    I’ve not read Adorno. I imagine his critique is centred around a critique on capitalism and how it impacts on culture? If so I don’t think it’s so simple. A lot of it has to do with how we justify the expenditure of public money. And why not? I have no desire to live in a dictatorship.

    The problem for music educators remains the question of, what is music education for? The third way politicians of the 1990s and 2000s aimed to make arts investment engines of social renewal and mobility and tethered this investment to measurable economic and social outcomes, especially here, in the UK. A laudable and progressive idea in many ways.

    It didn’t work. There is no evidence to suggest that arts investment does anything to improve the circumstances of the socially disadvantaged.

    Perhaps the biggest failure of this type of logic was Venezuela’s hugely expensive but ultimately unsuccessful (by every metric) El Sistema. El Sistema can be critiqued on many fronts, but in someways it actually showed this type of arts outreach actually has a kind of old school conservative heart ‘show the poor great Art and they will be inspired to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.’

    (And that’s a typical Blairite argument, no? Interesting I think.)

    Anyway, we are back to square one on that. Measurable outcomes are presumably necessary to justify the expenditure of public money. How could we argue otherwise? Maybe there are other ways.

    So I don’t blame this on ‘free market capitalism’ or ‘neoliberalism’ but rather on an increasingly less deferential population. But is it right for figures from the cultural elite (which may itself have very low amounts of cultural, ethnic and class diversity) to decide how the money is spent? I don’t think so. This is a trajectory that started in the 60s.

    So this is a quandary for policy makers, and I don’t believe Thatcher and neoliberalism is to blame.

    Anyway if I say much more than that I could probably submit it for marks. Interesting stuff to think about.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-24-2019 at 02:07 PM.

  34. #33

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    I think it's a damn shame music and politics should be in any way related at all.

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pycroft View Post
    ...It's just Adornos' Culture Industry .

    Let's just say, let's not open up a can of worms...
    Testing a Gibson ES335 vs Harley Benton HB 35 (very inexpensive semi hollow body guitar)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fGMIs1wNEA&t=185s

    Jamming the Jazz standard All the things you are
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUzDEct613g&t=3s

    Playing a solo over my friends tune Cookies and Cream
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJHqt_lpyKM

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    stop subsidizing a sector that produces mainly unemployment and poverty?
    See above ‘what is music education for?’

    These are big questions that I think most musicians and educators would rather not ask. But here we are. Anyway you can tell I’ve done a seminar on this stuff lol. These questions should be addressed by someone in the music world because they are asked by policy makers and those that fund the arts.

    And music is being progressively squeezed out of the curriculum here...

    But you know what? The sort of people who actually do jazz degrees are going to work out just fine whatever they end up doing.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    But you know what? The sort of people who actually do jazz degrees are going to work out just fine whatever they end up doing.
    actual research shows that nothing could be further from the truth.


    http://www.jazzstudie2016.de

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    actual research shows that nothing could be further from the truth.


    http://www.jazzstudie2016.de
    Ah yeah - you are German? Forgive me I’m sure you’ve mentioned it before but tbh I forget who lots of people on this forum are unless they post all the time on the threads i happen to be on.

    Also I’m struggling a bit with this as my German isn’t very good. If there’s an English translation I’d be interested to see it.

    There still seems to be plenty of music employment in London, no doubt less so outside. Most jazz graduates seem end up doing something music related and if not they retrain. I don’t have any figures for this but most music students are also pretty middle class.

    We often think of Germany as a paradise of subsidised arts though, so it would be interesting to see the real story.

    Obv very different to the US. IIRC correctly the last time I looked at a German conservatoire it was basically free to study. So it’s less self selecting of international and super talented scholarship students, upper middle class kids and trust fund babies.

    The Uk is somewhere in between.

    I’ve also heard it’s very hard to make an actual living through music in Berlin. Beyond that I don’t really know.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-25-2019 at 06:37 AM.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    We often think of Germany as a paradise of subsidised arts though, so it would be interesting to see the real story.
    Not too much when it comes to non-classical music, i.e. rock, blues, country, folk and jazz. In my home town these styles are well represented and find a good audience most of the time but municipal financial support is restricted to a minimum if there is any at all.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    Also I’m struggling a bit with this as my German isn’t very good. If there’s an English translation I’d be interested to see it.
    You don't have to struggle. Use an online German-English translator. It translates very well.

    Here's the first block of text on the front page. The detailed stuff is above it.

    'The economic situation of jazz musicians is repeatedly described as precarious, but in fact there are no meaningful figures – this is how the last detailed study dates back to the 1970s. Now, an empirical study by the University of Hildesheim has collected up-to-date data.

    The clients of the study, the Jazzinstitut Darmstadt, the Union of German Jazz Musicians and the IG Jazz Berlin, were now able to present meaningful data on the working and living conditions of the artists with the help of the study. For the first time in Germany, the framework conditions under which jazz is currently being created are mapped and analysed and concrete options for action for a targeted promotion policy in the jazz sector are developed.'

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO View Post
    Not too much when it comes to non-classical music, i.e. rock, blues, country, folk and jazz. In my home town these styles are well represented and find a good audience most of the time but municipal financial support is restricted to a minimum if there is any at all.
    That’s interesting and not very surprising. I think the idea or classical music as the ‘king music’ has been dethroned a little here, although classical music still receives the lions share of subsidies.

    Problem here is more that there is money for jazz, but it goes unclaimed because beyond a couple of institutions mostly interested in nurturing young, hip musicians, there is no such thing as jazz arts admin and everyone is filling in forms themselves. And yet applications for things like Jazz Services got rejected on a technicality. We used to be able to contact that organisation for funding. Now we are on our own...

    Furthermore the metrics that they look for are unconnected to the quality of the art you are producing. Tbh very few things about being a professional musician are connected to the quality of the art. A lot of it is having the wherewithall to put the stuff together and jump through the hoops. It never fails to surpass that so many talented musicians for whom this stuff cannot come easily are willing to sit down and do it for the art.

    That is an offshoot of the dynamic I talked about. Others might say neoliberalism. Sure.

    (But what replaces it? Gatekeepers? Mandarin elitists dictating arts policy? The current Tory government thinks about music policy purely in terms of orchestras.... )

    Better then nothing though!

    Left to the market there would be little jazz here I think - I think versions of it would survive in London and the other big cities, but the wider Uk scene would die. So what’s the value in doing music no one likes? Isn’t there a terrible sense of entitlement in expecting the state to subsidise the thing you love? There are families going to food banks....

    ‘Hello tax payer, subsidise my massive talent.’

    Harsh moral questions actually. Most musicians I think would rather not think about this.

    In NYC it’s part of the tourism industry, so it carries on....

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Now, an empirical study by the University of Hildesheim has collected up-to-date data.

    Hey- that's my hometown...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  43. #42

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    Erstaunlich!

    Ich habe drei Jahre in Deutschland gelebt. Ich erinnere mich nur an den Schnee und die schönen Kuchen. Aber ich war sehr jung :-)

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Erstaunlich!

    Ich habe drei Jahre in Deutschland gelebt. Ich erinnere mich nur an den Schnee und die schönen Kuchen. Aber ich war sehr jung :-)
    Looks like your command of the language is still excellent!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  45. #44

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    I look at the question of 7ths (and 3rds and 4ths 5ths) in blues much more simply than the rest of you guys: Blues is microtonal, vocal music, played on non-microtonal (or at least less microntonal) instruments. Fudging major/minor 7/3 or blue 4/5 is legal and part of the toolkit for copping microtonal vocal effects, including by creating transitory "clashes" between instruments. Piano plays major 7, sax plays minor 7 (or vice versa)? Not a problem.

    John

  46. #45

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    I think it makes sense to look at the blues form in terms of how the form moves between functions than how each functional area is specially voiced.
    The way I look at it is, 12 bar blues is divided into 3 harmonic areas. Both in major and minor blues, roughly the first 4 bars are the tonic area, second 4 bars transition to subdominant, last 4 bars turn around to tonic through the dominant.

    If I don't hear these functional changes, in other words if the form doesn't start with a tonic area, if doesn't go to subdominant exactly in bar 5 and if it doesn't reach dominat at some point in the last four bars to cycle back to tonic, I wouldn't hear those changes as blues.

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post

    If I don't hear these functional changes, in other words if the form doesn't start with a tonic area, if doesn't go to subdominant exactly in bar 5 and if it doesn't reach dominat at some point in the last four bars to cycle back to tonic, I wouldn't hear those changes as blues.
    So what about the changes that are used in "Roll And Tumble Blues" and quite a few others then?

    | IV7 | IV7 | I7 | I 7 |

    | IV7 | IV7 | I7 | I 7 |

    | V7 | IV7 | I7 | I7 ||
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO View Post
    Looks like your command of the language is still excellent!
    I'm afraid not, Tommo, I can't speak German. I was only about 4 when I was in Germany. I used the translator thing. Your English, however, is terrific - much more to the point!

    But I do remember the exquisite cakes. I used to gawp at them through the shop windows. Puts anything over here completely to shame. Forfars eat your heart out!

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO View Post
    So what about the changes that are used in "Roll And Tumble Blues" and quite a few others then?

    | IV7 | IV7 | I7 | I 7 |

    | IV7 | IV7 | I7 | I 7 |

    | V7 | IV7 | I7 | I7 ||
    Yes I listened to it, it's obvious that it's a blues tune, yet it doesn't start on tonic.


    It's a variation that doesn't stray too far however. It does go between tonic and subdominant in the first two four bars of the form. Essentially it repeats the second four bars of the more traditional form twice. Then goes to dominant to cycle back.
    It's also melodically and rhythmically (and lyrically) very strongly anchored in blues which makes such harmonic variations still be heard within the blues idiom. But like I said the harmonic variation is not quite a stretch, it references the traditional form by just repeating the second section twice.

  50. #49

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    Also, of course, he's very plainly using the straight dom and subdom, no 7s. But he's singing 'em.

    I don't think it matters what combination of I, IV and V are used as long as it works. There are all the 8 bar combinations too, of course. And John Lee Hooker used to thump away on one chord over a whole song (as I recall)


  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I'm afraid not, Tommo, I can't speak German. I was only about 4 when I was in Germany. I used the translator thing. Your English, however, is terrific - much more to the point!

    But I do remember the exquisite cakes. I used to gawp at them through the shop windows. Puts anything over here completely to shame. Forfars eat your heart out!
    Thanks for the kind words. So you were only 4 then - no wonder you didn't mention Schnitzel because that's what most Brits and Americans rave about when remembering Germany.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.