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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post

    It's a variation that doesn't stray too far however.
    Right!
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  3. #52

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    On the other hand if you consider a less conventional blues tune, All Blues. 6/4 time, in minor, does not always stay with conventional blues rhythms and melody (although they are used at times mixed in with a more modal style), no lyrics. Yet it's easily heard as a blues tune.

    The reason I hear it as blues I think is it starts with 4 bars of tonic, followed by subdominant in exactly the 5th bar (very decisive moment to me). Then reaching dominant in the last 4 bars (and bVI7 as commonly done in minor) to cycle back to tonic. I don't know if I could hear this tune as blues if these weren't all true.

    Last edited by Tal_175; 11-25-2019 at 01:08 PM.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Also, of course, he's very plainly using the straight dom and subdom, no 7s. But he's singing 'em.
    I think that's mostly because he's playing slide in open tuning (Spanish). He plays the b7 of the I chord shortly when transitioning back to the tonic from the subdominant.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I don't think it matters what combination of I, IV and V are used as long as it works. There are all the 8 bar combinations too, of course. And John Lee Hooker used to thump away on one chord over a whole song (as I recall)

    I absolutely agree. To me it's the use of dom7 chords and the b3 (or the note somewhere between the flat and natural 3rd plus other "blue" notes) in the melody throughout that's more what makes a song / tune sound like blues
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    On the other hand if you consider a less conventional blues tune, All Blues. 6/4 time, in minor, does not always stay with conventional blues rhythms and melody (although they are used at times), no lyrics. Yet it's easily heard as a blues tune.

    The reason I hear it as blues I think is it starts with 4 bars of tonic, followed by subdominant in exactly the 5th bar (very decisive moment to me). Then reaching dominant in the last 4 bars (and bVI7 as commonly done in minor) to cycle back to tonic. I don't know if I could hear this tune as blues if these weren't all true.

    I'm with you there.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO View Post
    no wonder you didn't mention Schnitzel because that's what most Brits and Americans rave about when remembering Germany.
    Well, they would, wouldn't they

    I'm more a Strudel and Stollen person...

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Well, they would, wouldn't they

    I'm more a Strudel and Stollen person...
    Not a bad thing at all. If I may ask (and not intending to derail this thread): in which part or town in Germany did you live?
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    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  8. #57

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    Army bases - Bielefeld, Düsseldorf and Osnabrück. I think we spent most of the time in Osnabrück.

    Where did you get your impressive English? Most people say 'school' but I know it was more than that :-)

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Army bases - Bielefeld, Düsseldorf and Osnabrück. I think we spent most of the time in Osnabrück.

    Where did you get your impressive English? Most people say 'school' but I know it was more than that :-)
    Bielefeld and Osnabrück are not too far away from where I live. Was your dad in the army?

    As for my English - my grandma worked for the British Army here in my hometown - as a war widow she had to raise three boys after the war, not an easy task.
    I often walked all across town to pick her up at the barracks to go home and spend the afternoon with her. Often I had to wait and the guard at the gate would try to start a conversation with me. That's probably the start of my fascination with the language - it just sounded good to my ears. Couldn't wait until I got English classes in school. Next thing was music of course - trying to transcribe lyrics (hilarious what I thought I heard they were singing sometimes - still remember some of my misheard lyrics). Then it was about reading. I went down to the central railway station because they had a good newspaper stand which carried Melody Maker and NME which I bought and read frequently. FF it was my interest in blues - I looked for and found books about the subject and "read" them. In the late 70s and 80s our band was working a lot with blues musicians from the US on their german and european tours which was a great experience both musically and regarding practicing and learning more english. I think that to this day I may find it easier to understand a guy from the US south than someone from the UK with a heavy accent.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO View Post
    Was your dad in the army?
    It definitely wasn't me :-) Yes, he was.

    As for my English - my grandma worked for the British Army here in my hometown - as a war widow she had to raise three boys after the war, not an easy task.
    I often walked all across town to pick her up at the barracks to go home and spend the afternoon with her. Often I had to wait and the guard at the gate would try to start a conversation with me. That's probably the start of my fascination with the language - it just sounded good to my ears. Couldn't wait until I got English classes in school. Next thing was music of course - trying to transcribe lyrics (hilarious what I thought I heard they were singing sometimes - still remember some of my misheard lyrics). Then it was about reading. I went down to the central railway station because they had a good newspaper stand which carried Melody Maker and NME which I bought and read frequently. FF it was my interest in blues - I looked for and found books about the subject and "read" them. In the late 70s and 80s our band was working a lot with blues musicians from the US on their german and european tours which was a great experience both musically and regarding practicing and learning more english..
    Ah, you see, essentially self-taught. Best way to do it. Maybe the same with music too. Put them together and...

    I think that to this day I may find it easier to understand a guy from the US south than someone from the UK with a heavy accent
    I'm no expert on US accents but I suspect a Southern accent isn't too hard to follow. I've heard some, mostly in movies, that are really difficult. It's not just a basic accent, it's the use of certain words and phrases particular to the States. Till I put subtitles on I never realised how much I was missing.

    As for local UK accents, absolutely. And don't mention Scottish ones, they can be impossible. You might like this (and so will everyone else, probably). I have no idea what he said!


  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post


    Ah, you see, essentially self-taught. Best way to do it. Maybe the same with music too. Put them together and...


    Always got bad grades from the teachers that insisted on learning grammar rules (music theory ?) but good ones who realized I used grammar properly without being able to quote the rules (learning by ear?).
    I know and met a guy from Glasgow - thankfully he tried to talk in a way so that I could understand him....
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    We often think of Germany as a paradise of subsidised arts though, so it would be interesting to see the real story.
    the graph shows the real story.

    77% of jazzers went to conservatory or similar
    70% make less than 12k per year from musical activities while investing almost 5k per year on average.
    only 5% make 30k or more
    over 50% play less than 25 gigs per year.
    64% of all jazz gigs pay less than 150.-

    in the big towns like cologne, hamburg or berlin, 50% of the gigs pay 50 euro or less (!)

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO View Post
    Always got bad grades from the teachers that insisted on learning grammar rules (music theory ?) but good ones who realized I used grammar properly without being able to quote the rules (learning by ear?).
    I know and met a guy from Glasgow - thankfully he tried to talk in a way so that I could understand him....
    Oh, teachers. I've run into a few of those in my time.

    We better get back to the blues, Tommo, but I'll tell you this story. I was, again, very young, maybe about six-ish. We were told to do a maths problem and I was told my answer was wrong. I kept getting the same answer again and again so I was kept behind after school. Every time I showed it to this woman teacher she told me it was wrong and I had to do it again.

    Then, finally, she left the room, probably for the loo or something. I knew she had the book of answers on her desk so I snuck a quick look - and my answer had been right. Can you imagine the fury? So I ran out of the school and all the way home and told my mother.

    She went up there and demanded to know what was going on. She was told 'He got the right answer but not the right way'.

    Yes, teachers :-)

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post

    She went up there and demanded to know what was going on. She was told 'He got the right answer but not the right way'.

    Yes, teachers :-)
    Where's the "facepalm" smilie when you need it?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    I look at the question of 7ths (and 3rds and 4ths 5ths) in blues much more simply than the rest of you guys: Blues is microtonal, vocal music, played on non-microtonal (or at least less microntonal) instruments. Fudging major/minor 7/3 or blue 4/5 is legal and part of the toolkit for copping microtonal vocal effects, including by creating transitory "clashes" between instruments. Piano plays major 7, sax plays minor 7 (or vice versa)? Not a problem.

    John
    This can certainly be overlooked.

    There’s the classic thing of playing 3 and b3 or 5 and b5 together on the piano to try and get that sound. Obviously we can bend strings on the guitar like Django and BB King, but someone took a vote in 1942 and we aren’t allowed to do that anymore in jazz land.

    It’s also worth pointing out that the fashion for soloists during the prewar era was often to be much more vocal. Cootie Williams is the classic example, but the blues intonation, high intensity soloing, wah wah effects and so on.... need I go on?

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    the graph shows the real story.

    77% of jazzers went to conservatory or similar
    70% make less than 12k per year from musical activities while investing almost 5k per year on average.
    only 5% make 30k or more
    over 50% play less than 25 gigs per year.
    64% of all jazz gigs pay less than 150.-

    in the big towns like cologne, hamburg or berlin, 50% of the gigs pay 50 euro or less (!)
    Wow that’s a bit worse than here I would imagine, but if be interested to know the actual figures.

    Most people here teach. Does that count as musical activities?

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    the graph shows the real story.

    77% of jazzers went to conservatory or similar
    70% make less than 12k per year from musical activities while investing almost 5k per year on average.
    only 5% make 30k or more
    over 50% play less than 25 gigs per year.
    64% of all jazz gigs pay less than 150.-

    in the big towns like cologne, hamburg or berlin, 50% of the gigs pay 50 euro or less (!)
    New Yorkers are like "wow, that's pretty good money!"

    John

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    Most people here teach. Does that count as musical activities?
    yes, it does.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    yes, it does.
    Sounds a bit rubbish in Germany! But maybe if you look at the National picture in UK outside the cities it’s similar. Don’t know if anyone has commissioned research on this. May try a search when I get a moment.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Wow that’s a bit worse than here I would imagine, but if be interested to know the actual figures.

    Most people here teach. Does that count as musical activities?
    That's a very good question. I'd say not. Personally I found it pretty tedious. There's no doubt I could teach but.... could they learn? It's very much a two-way thing. In any case, I found the mere transmission of knowledge pretty unproductive. However, it was quite nice when they started being able to do things they couldn't before but that only happened occasionally.

    Most of them genuinely thought somebody else was going to magically do it all for them. It's something I did my best to disillusion them about. I said 'You'll only ever get out of it what you put in'.

    It wasn't a lifestyle I enjoyed. Not because I was selfish and didn't give - quite the contrary - but because the material wasn't there. They had a vision of themselves playing brilliantly like their heroes but didn't want the slog to get there. What can you do?

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    That's a very good question. I'd say not. Personally I found it pretty tedious. There's no doubt I could teach but.... could they learn? It's very much a two-way thing. In any case, I found the mere transmission of knowledge pretty unproductive. However, it was quite nice when they started being able to do things they couldn't before but that only happened occasionally.

    Most of them genuinely thought somebody else was going to magically do it all for them. It's something I did my best to disillusion them about. I said 'You'll only ever get out of it what you put in'.

    It wasn't a lifestyle I enjoyed. Not because I was selfish and didn't give - quite the contrary - but because the material wasn't there. They had a vision of themselves playing like their heroes but didn't want the slog to get there. What can you do?
    I think I find teaching beginners way more fun than when I started. It’s not transmission of knowledge - that’s the key. You know all the stuff but you find a fun and easy way to teach it that engages the student. It helps to be interested in the how of teaching, more than the what.

    It also stops you from doing all the work, which i suspect is the biggest problem novice teachers have.... at least I know that was my error....

    My belief is that if you get them to engage from day one they don’t expect you to do it for them.... however that attitude certainly exists and is very hard to deal with. I’ve even seen it form postgrad music students. OMG!

    Not a skill set that necessarily interests a performing musician, but there’s more teaching than music in my family, so I kind of love it.

    Also there’s a wicked book called Guitar Basics that a few caveats aside, has its stuff worked out really really well. Works with one to ones, duos, groups, classrooms. Don’t know how they did it.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It’s not transmission of knowledge
    I know, that was a bit negative and badly put. It's a lot more than that.

    It also stops you from doing all the work
    What, you mean preparing the lessons, etc? Oh, that was the bit I liked. I thought about that very carefully. No one-size-fits-all regimen either, all individually tailored.

    My belief is that if you get them to engage from day one they don’t expect you to do it for them
    Not at the very beginning, then they're dead keen, but as things progress...

    however that attitude certainly exists and is very hard to deal with. I’ve even seen it form postgrad music students. OMG!
    Absolutely. One bloke said 'This is formulaic'. I said 'Of course it is, but so was learning your letters and times tables when you were a kid. But you have to get this before you can get creative with it'. 'Oh' he said :-)

    Also there’s a wicked book called Guitar Basics that a few caveats aside, has its stuff worked out really really well. Works with one to ones, duos, groups, classrooms. Don’t know how they did it.
    I tussled for a while wondering whether to use a book. In the end I decided against it, not that there aren't good books. I felt I'd just be the mouthpiece of the book, so to speak. So I did my own lessons.

    I tell you, the stuff I've poured into people over the years... I'm quite sure most of it went unheeded. The waste!

  23. #72

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    I was going over some stuff I've learned over the past couple years this AM and as I played this Bb Blues from the Raney-Aebersold set I was noticing just how many times it uses a Maj7 idea exactly when I'd think a blues wants a dominant7 idea. I ran a quick clip just because I always like to think about theory issues with an actual piece of music in mind, and these solos were created as example pieces for intermediate players, so anyhow, hope the OP is still around and finds it helpful. I have never played a piece so instructive of so many points in such a small space!

    BIG CHANGE-this is the same video I posted previously but I have captioned each phrase with the notation which might help any who want to drill down a bit into the solo.

    Last edited by lawson-stone; 11-26-2019 at 03:34 PM. Reason: Added NOTATION to the Clip
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  24. #73

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    I think, from what I've seen and heard, that a lot of players think of the 1 chord as major, even when it's plainly dominant and sounds dominant. It doesn't seem to deter them!

  25. #74

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    The melody of Dizzy Gillespie’s blues ‘Blue’n’Boogie’ has a ton of A naturals in it, in the key of Bb.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Sounds a bit rubbish in Germany! But maybe if you look at the National picture in UK outside the cities it’s similar. Don’t know if anyone has commissioned research on this. May try a search when I get a moment.
    it's as rubbish as anywhere else. london is better than amsterdam or hamburg? i don't think so.

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    The melody of Dizzy Gillespie’s blues ‘Blue’n’Boogie’ has a ton of A naturals in it, in the key of Bb.
    You're right, some of it's all over the place!


  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    it's as rubbish as anywhere else. london is better than amsterdam or hamburg? i don't think so.
    Doesn’t seem that bad?

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Doesn’t seem that bad?
    do you find it easy to make a living in london? do you teach full-time, or part-time and 100+ gigs? or a few steady musicals or shows? you have a wife and a kid, right?

    this might be of interest to you:

    http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/Fil...usician-report

  30. #79

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    I used to do about 200 gigs a year. A lot of travel though. Now I teach more.

    It’s not easy to make a living as a musician but I don’t recognise things as being as bad for the musicians I work with as portrayed in the study. But that’s just the people I know obv.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I know, that was a bit negative and badly put. It's a lot more than that.



    What, you mean preparing the lessons, etc? Oh, that was the bit I liked. I thought about that very carefully. No one-size-fits-all regimen either, all individually tailored.



    Not at the very beginning, then they're dead keen, but as things progress...



    Absolutely. One bloke said 'This is formulaic'. I said 'Of course it is, but so was learning your letters and times tables when you were a kid. But you have to get this before you can get creative with it'. 'Oh' he said :-)



    I tussled for a while wondering whether to use a book. In the end I decided against it, not that there aren't good books. I felt I'd just be the mouthpiece of the book, so to speak. So I did my own lessons.

    I tell you, the stuff I've poured into people over the years... I'm quite sure most of it went unheeded. The waste!

    Me in 2009 - I shall teach each student as a precious individual and tailor my approach to them.

    Me in 2019 - great, a syllabus!

    In seriousness a book or syllabus doesn’t mean you have to deliver it unimaginatively.

    With jazz it’s more complicated.

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Me in 2009 - I shall teach each student as a precious individual and tailor my approach to them.
    It wasn't quite like that! Most of it was fairly simple and one knew where they were with things so it was just a question of adding by increments. Obviously there was a lot of crossover repetition, one didn't have to start again with each one (god forbid).

    As for precious... no :-)

    Incidentally, I never did it for money. My interest was to see if they really could become better than they were at the start. But that only rarely happened, unfortunately.

  33. #82

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    Teaching is all about picking the winnable battles...

    It’s so easy to get distracted. Adults in particular have a 1,000,000 questions. But you have to choose one thing and get it right. That can be really hard sometimes. But very often one thing will impact the others....

    That’s why I respect Lawson stone’s approach so much. It’s clear and progress is definable. Improvisation is too hard, let me try and play these solos well. But in fact music isn’t as linear as everyone seem to think it is.... that sort of stuff helps other things... (but he’s a teacher himself. I wonder if that isn’t more important than knowing all the jazz theory.... how to learn things is more important than what is learned...)

    Wouldn’t work for everyone. Different strokes.... some people need to be told, here’s five notes now go and play with them and show me what you’ve got next week. Or whatever.

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    How to learn things is more important
    That's the point. If one is actually learning then everything is your teacher.

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Teaching is all about picking the winnable battles...

    It’s so easy to get distracted. Adults in particular have a 1,000,000 questions. But you have to choose one thing and get it right. That can be really hard sometimes. But very often one thing will impact the others....

    That’s why I respect Lawson stone’s approach so much. It’s clear and progress is definable. Improvisation is too hard, let me try and play these solos well. But in fact music isn’t as linear as everyone seem to think it is.... that sort of stuff helps other things... (but he’s a teacher himself. I wonder if that isn’t more important than knowing all the jazz theory.... how to learn things is more important than what is learned...)

    Wouldn’t work for everyone. Different strokes.... some people need to be told, here’s five notes now go and play with them and show me what you’ve got next week. Or whatever.
    Hey thanks. After maybe... 20 years of trying the chord-scale thing and just sounding lame, I decided to take a sabbatical from improvising and do what so many of my favorite players did: imitate and assimilate. I picked Raney because his basic feel seems really, really far from what I can do. Any movement towards Jimmy Raney from where I am is a move in the right direction. I also had that Aebersold set and a group on this forum wanted to do the solos, so about 3 years ago we launched. I"m the sole survivor!

    You're also right... I teach a very, very complicated subject, the scholarly AND spiritual interpretation of the Bible, so it's linguistics, literary analysis, comparative literature, archaeology, historiography, history, doctrine, ethics, spirituality, everyday life, counseling, relationships... all distilled into reading a set text, a Sunday's lectionary readings. I have identified certain skills that provide strategic access to a bunch of the others. Getting them right sets students up to do the rest. I focus on those skills. Some are mechanical, they feel rote, students gripe. But 10 years later I get e-mails as they discover what the core-task approach does for their work.

    I guess I unconsciously fell into that concept for improvisation. Learn to play good jazz well. Drill it, assimilate it, soak in it, love it. When I whistle for my horses every morning, I often whistle a Raney solo! The horses look at me funny. Sometimes I just skat the time of the notes. Just play with it.

    I have moments when I think that deeper stuff is happening. However slow it goes, i can at least play stuff that sounds good!
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  36. #85

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    Doesn’t Barry Harris outline blues as

    C7 | F7| C7 | C7 |
    Bb7 | Bb7 | Cmaj7 F | E-7 A7 |
    D-7 | G7 | Cmaj7 A7 | D-7 G7 :||

    Thus the first 6 bars are like b7 blues and the final 6 bars are like Major 7th blues.
    Last edited by rintincop; 12-01-2019 at 06:26 PM.

  37. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Doesn’t Barry Harris outline blues as

    C7 | F7| C7 | C7 |
    Bb7 | Bb7 | Fmaj7 Bb | A-7 D7|
    Gmi7 | C7 | Fmaj7 D7 | G-7 C7|

    Thus the first 6 bars are like b7 blues and the final 6 bars are like Major 7th blues.
    He addresses a lot of variations etc., but his basic reference,.... standard, beginner version isn't that one. Outta a typical IV7 in bars 5-6...

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Doesn’t Barry Harris outline blues as

    C7 | F7| C7 | C7 |
    Bb7 | Bb7 | Fmaj7 Bb | A-7 D7|
    Gmi7 | C7 | Fmaj7 D7 | G-7 C7|

    Thus the first 6 bars are like b7 blues and the final 6 bars are like Major 7th blues.
    Above, first 4 bars are C blues, the rest are F blues. Is that some clever Jazz thing, or typing mistake?

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  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Doesn’t Barry Harris outline blues as

    C7 | F7| C7 | C7 |
    Bb7 | Bb7 | Cmaj7 F | E-7 A7 |
    D-7 | G7 | Cmaj7 A7 | D-7 G7 :||

    Thus the first 6 bars are like b7 blues and the final 6 bars are like Major 7th blues.
    Oopsy daisy! Fixed the key for the second half... Somehow I must have transposed the key in mid typing late night on an iPhone.

  40. #89

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    I notice the Parker Omni book shows a lot of F blues (Au Privave)

    || Fmaj7 | G-7 C7 | Fmaj7 | C-7 F7| ... thinking for the first 4 bars

  41. #90

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    I find the Omnibook changes generally (although not always) reflect Parker’s lines.

    Of course with blues changes in general you can play one version of the changes over the others.

    As a pointed out above, the maj7/7 clash thing is not usually so pronounced if you comp in seventhless chords such as triads, 6s or 6/9s, but in general provided you use the lug holes most things pan out fine.

    The blues is a great training ground for playing over standards. It teaches one to relate most of the basic movements in the GASB to a simple functional (I IV V) template with moving chords joining one to the other.

    I’m not sure this is always emphasised enough.

    Here’s a nice variation

    F6 | Bb7 | F6 | F7 |
    Bb7 | Bbm6 | F/A | Abo7 |
    Gm7 | C7 | F/A Abo7 | Gm7 C7

  42. #91

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    Came across this. Interesting, sounds like an 8 bar blues but it's a 12-bar. I thought it was some kind of unusual progression but no, it's very straightforward. Feels like a sort of audio illusion. At least, I hear it that way. One reason is, it's not normally done like this. Generally it's just a 3-chord trick with the chords in the usual places.


  43. #92

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    Lots of bop blues use maj. They are blues tunes with a bridge, or at least they can be. Another 12 bar by Parker... I only remember because was called last night... Barbados... the I chord has a Ima9 V7sus feel. Where did the Blue notes come from.... somehow I don't think they developed from Dominant chords.

  44. #93

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    Reg..Where did the Blue notes come from.... somehow I don't think they developed from Dominant chords.

    We can guess for days how the blues evolved...from a vocal expression to an instrument--a one chord variation..three or more chords..and of course jazz flavored..

    the very early blues players most likely didnt think of themselves as blues players
    and their playing was like anyone who just learned one chord at a time like many of us did
    they experimented and found "wrong" notes that sounded good..I dont think there was theory involved
    I remember learning my first few blues and wondered how to get "that" sound..the supposed easy to play music had some very demanding ways about it

    I may teach some "kids"..they say.."hey..I want to learn to play like Jimi Hendrix or Stevie Ray.." I usually ask them if they know who Albert King is..
    play well ...
    wolf

  45. #94

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    Yea I loved Albert... wasn't he a lefty also.

  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen View Post


    the very early blues players most likely didnt think of themselves as blues players
    They would call themselves "musicianers" and play whatever their audiences fancied to listen to. The idea of them being strict blues players came partly through the record companies of the time who only let them record blues tunes (with a very very few exceptions). Even the folklorists acted as a filter of their repertoire being only interested in specific songs and styles.
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  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen View Post
    Reg..Where did the Blue notes come from.... somehow I don't think they developed from Dominant chords.

    We can guess for days how the blues evolved...from a vocal expression to an instrument--a one chord variation..three or more chords..and of course jazz flavored..

    the very early blues players most likely didnt think of themselves as blues players
    and their playing was like anyone who just learned one chord at a time like many of us did
    they experimented and found "wrong" notes that sounded good..I dont think there was theory involved
    I remember learning my first few blues and wondered how to get "that" sound..the supposed easy to play music had some very demanding ways about it

    I may teach some "kids"..they say.."hey..I want to learn to play like Jimi Hendrix or Stevie Ray.." I usually ask them if they know who Albert King is..
    Again I think melodic ornamentation - vocal nuance. -came first and harmony adapted to follow it.

    And of course the jazz version of blue notes is kind of the equal tempered approximation...

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Came across this. Interesting, sounds like an 8 bar blues but it's a 12-bar. I thought it was some kind of unusual progression but no, it's very straightforward. Feels like a sort of audio illusion. At least, I hear it that way. One reason is, it's not normally done like this. Generally it's just a 3-chord trick with the chords in the usual places.
    It sounded straight 12 bars to me.
    Regarding chords though. I do not know, probably there is only 3, but I heard it as (at least) illusion of, or implied "Parker changes". If I was to play this one, I'd definitely use some "ii V"s, dims ("b9"s, if you prefer it that way) and turnaround.
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  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    It sounded straight 12 bars to me.
    Regarding chords though. I do not know, probably there is only 3, but I heard it as (at least) illusion of, or implied "Parker changes". If I was to play this one, I'd definitely use some "ii V"s, dims ("b9"s, if you prefer it that way) and turnaround.
    Like I said, it's normally done as a 3 chord trick (or 4 if you sneak in a G7). This is the Woody Guthrie version and there are lots more by Doc Watson and others. It's also a 16 bar blues, not a 12.


    I think attributing the Parker changes to a tune like this is probably a bit steep. It's a simple country blues. Extending the middle bars by using the cycle of dominants was standard practice. Jazz took it from them, not the other way round.

    I think you'd find, if you played it with b9 or other sophisticated sounds, that you'd really gone too far away from the original blues feeling. Nothing to stop anyone from doing it, of course, but I wouldn't personally.

    But the point was that the ordinary version seems to be unrushed, the chords falling simply where they should. The Broonzy version feels short because it is, it's been reduced from 16 bars to 12.

    The way Broonzy is doing it is more like a regular jazz blues; Parker changes are more chromatic. All these 12-bar formats have their roots in the simple 3 chords but it doesn't necessarily mean that they can be substituted for each other.

    This tune doesn't work for Parker's chromatic bit, the rest of the time it's okay :-)


  50. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Like I said, it's normally done as a 3 chord trick ...
    I thought Jazz Blues and Parker blues were one same thing. There I learned something new.
    Seems I was hearing Jazz blues in Broonzy,

    - Regarding that Jazz and Parker took it from Blues: That was exactly the point of my post.
    - Regarding all various versions you mention and how it is normally done: Whatever. The only version I know is the one by Beoonzy, I first learned about it from your post.
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  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    I thought Jazz Blues and Parker blues were one same thing. There I learned something new.
    Seems I was hearing Jazz blues in Broonzy,
    Parker isn't the same as standard jazz blues. But, yes, what Broonzy was playing is more like jazz blues. There are differences. I'm sure you can look it up rather than me spending time writing it all out here!

    - Regarding that Jazz and Parker took it from Blues: That was exactly the point of my post.
    - Regarding all various versions you mention and how it is normally done: Whatever. The only version I know is the one by Beoonzy, I first learned about it from your post.
    Okay. The first recorded version was this one. But, like most of these songs, god knows where it first came from. They evolve, get passed down. Likewise the forms (chord progressions) also evolve. They tend either to have slight variations or get filled out with all kinds of substitutions. The regular jazz blues is a variation of the 3 chord trick and what Parker did was a variation of that... and so on ad infinitum.