The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    When I started playing jazz all I had were pentatonic blues scales and I played them into the ground. Trying to play jazz that way just made me sound hokey. I felt trapped in the blues-scale prison. That's when I noticed in a lot of jazz transcriptions and charts the use of major7 ideas in blues solos. That immediately seemed to put me closer to the blues playing by jazz musicians I'd been listening to. This seems to be one of the steps they took to get beyond the bare-bones blues.

    Traditional blues seems, to me, to be an end-stopped, fossilized musical form that has stopped evolving. Jazz players took the blues form and feel and elaborated on it with a whole range of ideas, including playing major and back cycling, like "Blues for Alice."

    So I think when someone says something like Mickey Baker's blues solo "doesn't seem to be a blues anymore" they are actually correct. It is not a traditional Muddy Waters/Blind Lemon Jefferson blues solo. It is a jazz solo rooted in the blues feeling and concept.

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  3. #27

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    OTOH the democratisation of education requires accountability.
    Who says the democratisation of education is at all desirable ? It's just Adornos' Culture Industry .

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Have you heard what GG does with Donna Lee...? If not, just wait for it... he switches pickups at 1:49 and then... (!)

    Yeah I’m not really into this personally, it’s been posted a few times.

    Respect to GG, he’s obviously an extraordinarily accomplished and versatile player. Also he can certainly play those changes.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pycroft
    Who says the democratisation of education is at all desirable ? It's just Adornos' Culture Industry .
    I’d rather have a democratised education system than an elitist an opaque one. Which is not to say the way that we have attempted to democratise education has been successful.

    I’ve not read Adorno. I imagine his critique is centred around a critique on capitalism and how it impacts on culture? If so I don’t think it’s so simple. A lot of it has to do with how we justify the expenditure of public money. And why not? I have no desire to live in a dictatorship.

    The problem for music educators remains the question of, what is music education for? The third way politicians of the 1990s and 2000s aimed to make arts investment engines of social renewal and mobility and tethered this investment to measurable economic and social outcomes, especially here, in the UK. A laudable and progressive idea in many ways.

    It didn’t work. There is no evidence to suggest that arts investment does anything to improve the circumstances of the socially disadvantaged.

    Perhaps the biggest failure of this type of logic was Venezuela’s hugely expensive but ultimately unsuccessful (by every metric) El Sistema. El Sistema can be critiqued on many fronts, but in someways it actually showed this type of arts outreach actually has a kind of old school conservative heart ‘show the poor great Art and they will be inspired to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.’

    (And that’s a typical Blairite argument, no? Interesting I think.)

    Anyway, we are back to square one on that. Measurable outcomes are presumably necessary to justify the expenditure of public money. How could we argue otherwise? Maybe there are other ways.

    So I don’t blame this on ‘free market capitalism’ or ‘neoliberalism’ but rather on an increasingly less deferential population. But is it right for figures from the cultural elite (which may itself have very low amounts of cultural, ethnic and class diversity) to decide how the money is spent? I don’t think so. This is a trajectory that started in the 60s.

    So this is a quandary for policy makers, and I don’t believe Thatcher and neoliberalism is to blame.

    Anyway if I say much more than that I could probably submit it for marks. Interesting stuff to think about.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-24-2019 at 02:07 PM.

  6. #30

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    I think it's a damn shame music and politics should be in any way related at all.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pycroft
    ...It's just Adornos' Culture Industry .

    Let's just say, let's not open up a can of worms...

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    stop subsidizing a sector that produces mainly unemployment and poverty?
    See above ‘what is music education for?’

    These are big questions that I think most musicians and educators would rather not ask. But here we are. Anyway you can tell I’ve done a seminar on this stuff lol. These questions should be addressed by someone in the music world because they are asked by policy makers and those that fund the arts.

    And music is being progressively squeezed out of the curriculum here...

    But you know what? The sort of people who actually do jazz degrees are going to work out just fine whatever they end up doing.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    actual research shows that nothing could be further from the truth.


    http://www.jazzstudie2016.de
    Ah yeah - you are German? Forgive me I’m sure you’ve mentioned it before but tbh I forget who lots of people on this forum are unless they post all the time on the threads i happen to be on.

    Also I’m struggling a bit with this as my German isn’t very good. If there’s an English translation I’d be interested to see it.

    There still seems to be plenty of music employment in London, no doubt less so outside. Most jazz graduates seem end up doing something music related and if not they retrain. I don’t have any figures for this but most music students are also pretty middle class.

    We often think of Germany as a paradise of subsidised arts though, so it would be interesting to see the real story.

    Obv very different to the US. IIRC correctly the last time I looked at a German conservatoire it was basically free to study. So it’s less self selecting of international and super talented scholarship students, upper middle class kids and trust fund babies.

    The Uk is somewhere in between.

    I’ve also heard it’s very hard to make an actual living through music in Berlin. Beyond that I don’t really know.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-25-2019 at 06:37 AM.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    We often think of Germany as a paradise of subsidised arts though, so it would be interesting to see the real story.
    Not too much when it comes to non-classical music, i.e. rock, blues, country, folk and jazz. In my home town these styles are well represented and find a good audience most of the time but municipal financial support is restricted to a minimum if there is any at all.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Also I’m struggling a bit with this as my German isn’t very good. If there’s an English translation I’d be interested to see it.
    You don't have to struggle. Use an online German-English translator. It translates very well.

    Here's the first block of text on the front page. The detailed stuff is above it.

    'The economic situation of jazz musicians is repeatedly described as precarious, but in fact there are no meaningful figures – this is how the last detailed study dates back to the 1970s. Now, an empirical study by the University of Hildesheim has collected up-to-date data.

    The clients of the study, the Jazzinstitut Darmstadt, the Union of German Jazz Musicians and the IG Jazz Berlin, were now able to present meaningful data on the working and living conditions of the artists with the help of the study. For the first time in Germany, the framework conditions under which jazz is currently being created are mapped and analysed and concrete options for action for a targeted promotion policy in the jazz sector are developed.'

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Not too much when it comes to non-classical music, i.e. rock, blues, country, folk and jazz. In my home town these styles are well represented and find a good audience most of the time but municipal financial support is restricted to a minimum if there is any at all.
    That’s interesting and not very surprising. I think the idea or classical music as the ‘king music’ has been dethroned a little here, although classical music still receives the lions share of subsidies.

    Problem here is more that there is money for jazz, but it goes unclaimed because beyond a couple of institutions mostly interested in nurturing young, hip musicians, there is no such thing as jazz arts admin and everyone is filling in forms themselves. And yet applications for things like Jazz Services got rejected on a technicality. We used to be able to contact that organisation for funding. Now we are on our own...

    Furthermore the metrics that they look for are unconnected to the quality of the art you are producing. Tbh very few things about being a professional musician are connected to the quality of the art. A lot of it is having the wherewithall to put the stuff together and jump through the hoops. It never fails to surpass that so many talented musicians for whom this stuff cannot come easily are willing to sit down and do it for the art.

    That is an offshoot of the dynamic I talked about. Others might say neoliberalism. Sure.

    (But what replaces it? Gatekeepers? Mandarin elitists dictating arts policy? The current Tory government thinks about music policy purely in terms of orchestras.... )

    Better then nothing though!

    Left to the market there would be little jazz here I think - I think versions of it would survive in London and the other big cities, but the wider Uk scene would die. So what’s the value in doing music no one likes? Isn’t there a terrible sense of entitlement in expecting the state to subsidise the thing you love? There are families going to food banks....

    ‘Hello tax payer, subsidise my massive talent.’

    Harsh moral questions actually. Most musicians I think would rather not think about this.

    In NYC it’s part of the tourism industry, so it carries on....

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Now, an empirical study by the University of Hildesheim has collected up-to-date data.

    Hey- that's my hometown...

  14. #38

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    Erstaunlich!

    Ich habe drei Jahre in Deutschland gelebt. Ich erinnere mich nur an den Schnee und die schönen Kuchen. Aber ich war sehr jung :-)

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Erstaunlich!

    Ich habe drei Jahre in Deutschland gelebt. Ich erinnere mich nur an den Schnee und die schönen Kuchen. Aber ich war sehr jung :-)
    Looks like your command of the language is still excellent!

  16. #40

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    I look at the question of 7ths (and 3rds and 4ths 5ths) in blues much more simply than the rest of you guys: Blues is microtonal, vocal music, played on non-microtonal (or at least less microntonal) instruments. Fudging major/minor 7/3 or blue 4/5 is legal and part of the toolkit for copping microtonal vocal effects, including by creating transitory "clashes" between instruments. Piano plays major 7, sax plays minor 7 (or vice versa)? Not a problem.

    John

  17. #41

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    I think it makes sense to look at the blues form in terms of how the form moves between functions than how each functional area is specially voiced.
    The way I look at it is, 12 bar blues is divided into 3 harmonic areas. Both in major and minor blues, roughly the first 4 bars are the tonic area, second 4 bars transition to subdominant, last 4 bars turn around to tonic through the dominant.

    If I don't hear these functional changes, in other words if the form doesn't start with a tonic area, if doesn't go to subdominant exactly in bar 5 and if it doesn't reach dominat at some point in the last four bars to cycle back to tonic, I wouldn't hear those changes as blues.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175

    If I don't hear these functional changes, in other words if the form doesn't start with a tonic area, if doesn't go to subdominant exactly in bar 5 and if it doesn't reach dominat at some point in the last four bars to cycle back to tonic, I wouldn't hear those changes as blues.
    So what about the changes that are used in "Roll And Tumble Blues" and quite a few others then?

    | IV7 | IV7 | I7 | I 7 |

    | IV7 | IV7 | I7 | I 7 |

    | V7 | IV7 | I7 | I7 ||

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Looks like your command of the language is still excellent!
    I'm afraid not, Tommo, I can't speak German. I was only about 4 when I was in Germany. I used the translator thing. Your English, however, is terrific - much more to the point!

    But I do remember the exquisite cakes. I used to gawp at them through the shop windows. Puts anything over here completely to shame. Forfars eat your heart out!

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    So what about the changes that are used in "Roll And Tumble Blues" and quite a few others then?

    | IV7 | IV7 | I7 | I 7 |

    | IV7 | IV7 | I7 | I 7 |

    | V7 | IV7 | I7 | I7 ||
    Yes I listened to it, it's obvious that it's a blues tune, yet it doesn't start on tonic.


    It's a variation that doesn't stray too far however. It does go between tonic and subdominant in the first two four bars of the form. Essentially it repeats the second four bars of the more traditional form twice. Then goes to dominant to cycle back.
    It's also melodically and rhythmically (and lyrically) very strongly anchored in blues which makes such harmonic variations still be heard within the blues idiom. But like I said the harmonic variation is not quite a stretch, it references the traditional form by just repeating the second section twice.

  21. #45

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    Also, of course, he's very plainly using the straight dom and subdom, no 7s. But he's singing 'em.

    I don't think it matters what combination of I, IV and V are used as long as it works. There are all the 8 bar combinations too, of course. And John Lee Hooker used to thump away on one chord over a whole song (as I recall)


  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I'm afraid not, Tommo, I can't speak German. I was only about 4 when I was in Germany. I used the translator thing. Your English, however, is terrific - much more to the point!

    But I do remember the exquisite cakes. I used to gawp at them through the shop windows. Puts anything over here completely to shame. Forfars eat your heart out!
    Thanks for the kind words. So you were only 4 then - no wonder you didn't mention Schnitzel because that's what most Brits and Americans rave about when remembering Germany.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175

    It's a variation that doesn't stray too far however.
    Right!

  24. #48

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    On the other hand if you consider a less conventional blues tune, All Blues. 6/4 time, in minor, does not always stay with conventional blues rhythms and melody (although they are used at times mixed in with a more modal style), no lyrics. Yet it's easily heard as a blues tune.

    The reason I hear it as blues I think is it starts with 4 bars of tonic, followed by subdominant in exactly the 5th bar (very decisive moment to me). Then reaching dominant in the last 4 bars (and bVI7 as commonly done in minor) to cycle back to tonic. I don't know if I could hear this tune as blues if these weren't all true.

    Last edited by Tal_175; 11-25-2019 at 01:08 PM.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Also, of course, he's very plainly using the straight dom and subdom, no 7s. But he's singing 'em.
    I think that's mostly because he's playing slide in open tuning (Spanish). He plays the b7 of the I chord shortly when transitioning back to the tonic from the subdominant.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I don't think it matters what combination of I, IV and V are used as long as it works. There are all the 8 bar combinations too, of course. And John Lee Hooker used to thump away on one chord over a whole song (as I recall)

    I absolutely agree. To me it's the use of dom7 chords and the b3 (or the note somewhere between the flat and natural 3rd plus other "blue" notes) in the melody throughout that's more what makes a song / tune sound like blues

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    On the other hand if you consider a less conventional blues tune, All Blues. 6/4 time, in minor, does not always stay with conventional blues rhythms and melody (although they are used at times), no lyrics. Yet it's easily heard as a blues tune.

    The reason I hear it as blues I think is it starts with 4 bars of tonic, followed by subdominant in exactly the 5th bar (very decisive moment to me). Then reaching dominant in the last 4 bars (and bVI7 as commonly done in minor) to cycle back to tonic. I don't know if I could hear this tune as blues if these weren't all true.

    I'm with you there.