The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Posts 76 to 100 of 100
  1. #76

    User Info Menu

    Miles Okazaki covers a ton of rythmic territory in Fundamentals of Guitar. Here he is with Dan Weiss explaining some basics -



    Will

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

    User Info Menu

    One of the most valuable things I've done to improve time-feel (and I still feel like I'm sailing toward something beyond the horizon) is this ...

    Organizing rehearsal bands with the best musicians I can get to participate. There's some detail I can share about how to do that; ask if interested.

    The group occasionally hires teachers to come in and coach us. We've done this many times over the years. It turns out that some world class players (names you'd know) have been willing to do this. We've done different things in these sessions, but one we've come back to is simply asking the teacher to help us with time feel (bearing in mind, most of these sessions are for Brazilian music, but a different group did it years ago when we were trying to improve our playing of standards).

    A couple of times we've had world class drummers come in, just so we could feel what it's like to play with a drummer at that level. Once, we splurged and had both bass and drum teachers.

    The result of this, I think, at least for me, was a subtle improvement in my ability to discern what better time-feel sounds like. Maybe that opens the door a crack.

    A side benefit -- we serve lunch after the sessions, which is an opportunity to hear musician's stories. TBH, I like that almost as much as I like playing.

  4. #78

    User Info Menu

    Yea Miles is cool and dig his compositions... But groove, come on. Working with percussion books is not complicated.

    If your looking for new or more modern material, Yea, But if your trying to get basic jazz comping skills no.

    Playing polyrhythms or polypulse studies works after one has the basics together.

    There are big differences between making time groove, or lock into a feel. Jazz isn't modern music.

    Yea Christian... Alan passed away back in the 90's. I studied with him in early 70's in Boston at his home. I was at the devils retreat, Berklee getting my arranging/ comp skills together. I learned how to lock in with subdividing and he always pushed melodies, changes and Form.
    It's funny to look back and see where different musicians had major influences personally. At the same time I was studying with James Williams on piano.

  5. #79

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea Miles is cool and dig his compositions... But groove, come on. Working with percussion books is not complicated.

    If your looking for new or more modern material, Yea, But if your trying to get basic jazz comping skills no.

    Playing polyrhythms or polypulse studies works after one has the basics together.

    There are big differences between making time groove, or lock into a feel. Jazz isn't modern music.

    Yea Christian... Alan passed away back in the 90's. I studied with him in early 70's in Boston at his home. I was at the devils retreat, Berklee getting my arranging/ comp skills together. I learned how to lock in with subdividing and he always pushed melodies, changes and Form.
    It's funny to look back and see where different musicians had major influences personally. At the same time I was studying with James Williams on piano.
    Here's an important tip. Obviously, not everybody can study at Berklee. But, anybody can buy the T-shirt from the on-line store. It just might improve your time feel by helping to convince the other players that they should be phrasing to YOU.

  6. #80

    User Info Menu

    As you prob know Ive been doing a fair bit of research into jazz education. Ethan Iverson is often an interesting thinker on the subject although I don’t always agree with his thoughts.

    when he talks about Lennie Tristano, he talks about the specificness of the approach.... I recognise the whole additive time thing, very intellectual application of odd time over straight time. I think M Base, where Miles is from, comes from that kind of tradition.

    He contrasts this with the dance roots of the music, which is less scientific but more experiential. I think in jazz education the tendency has generally been to teach what is easily teachable.

    In case I sound like I’m criticising Miles he gets all this, but I think it’s a reflection of the fact that it’s easiest to find information in today’s world, and mathematical rhythm ideas are very information rich.

    Being able to play a groove is very different.

  7. #81

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
    Miles Okazaki covers a ton of rythmic territory in Fundamentals of Guitar. Here he is with Dan Weiss explaining some basics -

    I know this video that joins a work I've been doing for years with the guitar. I also use the drums rudiments for the work of the right hand, independence, polyrhythms ... and chord/bass compings with the thumb and fingers, this first open strings, then applied to chord sequences. Also pattern of djembe or congas, with 2 or three sounds, the bases of African polyrhythms, claves, cascara, etc. There are hundreds of patterns that are actually rhythms that were played and mixed with the origins of jazz, in New Orleans. This is what I found most rewarding to acquire rhythmic freedom

  8. #82

    User Info Menu

    yea... I don't have a t-shirt. But basically anyone can get most of berklee's teachings anywhere around the world, and for free. It's almost like a plague. In some crowds... might get stoned for having shirt. And I actually picked up my rhythmic skills from private teacher and gigging, the berklee name drop is just too push buttons...

    Pat, what's rhythmic freedom?

  9. #83

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Being able to play a groove is very different.
    So how does one define groove or practise it or develop it?

    Will

  10. #84

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Pat, what's rhythmic freedom?
    RHYTHMIC & POLYRHTHMIC FREEDOM
    you can probably hear a whole set of things, especially in a band, for example the Trio Jarret, great from this point of view, but what I am talking about is related to the guitar solo, which is more a polyryhmic freedom. The problem is quite comparable in a rhythmic section p/b/dms or g/b/dms, but you are alone to produce this collective groove

    three voices are assumed: bass, harmony and melody, or any other form of counterpoint, but from a rhythmic point of view, while we speak more willingly of harmony and melody. Think of a basic drum set (bass drum, snare drum, cymbal ride), djembe with its 3 basic sounds: bass, open, closed, or conga, bass, open and closed, slap. About West African music we talk about harmony of rhythms. It's as complex as a Mozart score, but the richness is elsewhere

    the 'rhythmic freedom' I try to acquire is to overlay on any pattern of bass any punctuation of chords. There are thousands of bass patterns corresponding to the different rhythms in the world. Just think of the richness of Motown bass grooves (James Jameson, etc.), the bass matching dance rhythms in the world, or only in the American world of North and South, Caribbean... It's infinitely richer than a walking bass at 4/4, although it can be varied (in two, syncopated notes, skips, etc.).

    I have whole notebooks of such rhythms, readings of courses and methods of bass, djembe and congas (I worked these 3 instruments, but in a group I played only bass and double bass). The best thing would be for me to give examples, I will make pictures of the main two-voice rhythmic pattern. I'm thinking of things like that

    in groups of 4 djembes with doundoun and bells, it was not easy to shoot together, when everyone felt like they were playing their thing correctly. In addition to being polyrhythmic, West African percussion is polymetric (I talked elsewhere about Steve Coleman and his friends, the most important contribution to jazz from the 90s), there is actually no beginning of bar, or even bars for them. The trio Sonny Rollins, Elvin Jones, Wilbur Ware at the Village Vanguard takes so many rhythmic liberties that at one point they get lost... before they get together


    as Christianm77 said, metronimic respect for comping and live groove in a group are two different things. If you take the pre-warII jazz recordings, the small bands of Lionel Hampton or Fats Waller, even the sextet of Count Basie, among others, the tempo is not fixed from the beginning to the end of songs that do not exceed 3 to 4 minutes, but they are together and the groove, the swing is incredible. Today some record with a click in the ears and it does not groove. So one thing is to have a constant tempo, another to have a good rhythmic setup as far as. On the given youtubes here, you can hear that this setup is sometimes bad even playing with an Aebersold disc

    *
    another aspect is that the music I want to make, as I've talked about elsewhere, is quite demanding harmonically, it has sounds and melodic lines that an audience is not used to, and if everything is too new to him, he is bored. On the other hand, if you offer music powered by a rhythmic groove, repetitive or not, he will want to dance. The best example is Bartok, with his Art Music revival of Romanian, Hungarian, bourrées, etc.

    PS: I add that some rhythmic patterns given by the methods are sometimes aberrant. I think of Barney Kessel's book, yet excellent or this one, by Jody Fisher: it does not indicate the bass, yet on the rhythms indicated by some Afro-Cuban or other dances, so you can play that, without it ever sounding like it is supposed to do!

  11. #85

    User Info Menu

    RHYTHMIC & POLYRHYTHMIC FREEDOM
    independence thumb and fingers right hand for guitar comping and solo
    we replace the different sounds of percussion by bass and chords or bass chords melody
    I recall that changing instruments is advised by Kenny Werner, at the beginning of Effortless Mastery. Personally, my biggest weakness was the rhythm, and the ability to hear several at once, so the other musicians in the band. So I worked this kind of stuff, adapting them from percussions to the guitar

    a few pages of my notebooks, which I mentioned earlier

    2 first from

    we notice that we find at the bottom line bass of samba, bossa-nova, claves ...

    from drums rudiments. R and L can represent bass and alternating chords, or 2 im fingers, ia, ma, etc. excellent for speed work. The redoubled finger can then give the other in between, like the sticks of a drummer

    polyrhythms

    some dance rhythms adapted for djembé or african drums


    here as in the previous pages we can mark the "." or not, the rhythm does not change, but the flow is different. The djembe virtuosos uses ghost notes to simulate multiple simultaneous instruments
    personal (permutations concept...)

    here the drums rudiments concern Caribbean & Afro-Cuban rhythms. They can be used with bass and chords, or to work independence in the alternation of 2 fingers, or on two notes, like drums rudiments above

  12. #86

    User Info Menu

    I had a wake up call this week. Since I love chords, I always figured I was good at comping. That despite the fact that soloists I"ve played with seemed to get confused a lot... I figured they were not keeping up.

    But then I made a recording of just bass and drums of "Donna Lee" and recorded my self comping over it. Then I tried to play the tune over my own comping. It was a disaster.

    I realize... I am not good at comping. So I'm going to make a much more serious effort at intentional work on my comping skills. Might go back to basic 4-to-the-bar and try to comp in a way that at least I am comfortable soloing over.

  13. #87

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    But then I made a recording of just bass and drums of "Donna Lee" and recorded my self comping over it. Then I tried to play the tune over my own comping. It was a disaster.
    In which way? Too busy?

  14. #88

    User Info Menu

    Hey Lawsen... have you, gone through the tune and actually analyzed the melody. If you haven't, it will make you at least play changes that work with head. There are basically two choices for how to organize... Harmony.

    Pat... yea all the material you posted is pretty standard, right. But it's nice to see someone else go through all the BS.
    I did it 40 years ago... it hasn't changes. It still comes down to playing, and personally, how harmony works with rhythm to create Jazz feels... jazz comping styles.

    Anyway... you could have said, be able to play whatever I want and also be able to play and recognize whatever someone else wants. (and the key is... someone else, the live thing, not rehearsed memorized performance), and would have worked for me. But thanks for details, I appreciate.

    I read through a lot of your personal notated examples, from another thread? Can't remember. Do you have playing examples. On paper they're traditional vanilla right... what makes rhythm, straight, swing, odd meter, compound, etc... is how they create a feel. The accent patterns lock in to create one rhythmic feel.

  15. #89

    User Info Menu

    Well, it's one thing to comp for the head of a tune, and one for a soloist.

  16. #90

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Zina
    In which way? Too busy?
    Here's the track, warts and all. I start off just... well, not in sync with the tempo. But I think basically I"m too much on the upbeats.

    While I don't wan't to be cruelly shredded, still, I would welcome some serious critique and advice on this. I think I could be a good comping player. I know a lot of good voicings, but I think I just get in the way somehow. I tried to play the head and solo over my own comping and kept getting lost and it never meshed at all the way good comping and soloing should.


  17. #91

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I had a wake up call this week. Since I love chords, I always figured I was good at comping. That despite the fact that soloists I"ve played with seemed to get confused a lot... I figured they were not keeping up.

    But then I made a recording of just bass and drums of "Donna Lee" and recorded my self comping over it. Then I tried to play the tune over my own comping. It was a disaster.

    I realize... I am not good at comping. So I'm going to make a much more serious effort at intentional work on my comping skills. Might go back to basic 4-to-the-bar and try to comp in a way that at least I am comfortable soloing over.
    it sounds like the act of recording and listening to yourself has already sparked some self reflection.

    kolb cycle right? :-)

    good idea generally.

    Ditch the Aebersold and just record comping for yourself. See what happens.
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-10-2020 at 01:48 PM.

  18. #92

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Here's the track, warts and all. I start off just... well, not in sync with the tempo. But I think basically I"m too much on the upbeats.
    no. I don’t get that at all. Most of your chords are on the beat. Could probably do with some more pushes tbh.

    but really what I’m lacking here is a strong sense of direction and purpose to the comping. It could be rhythmic but also melodic - do the top notes of your chords create lead lines? Are you audiating strongly what you are comping?

    it sounds like you have all the raw materials, but you need to put it together.

  19. #93

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Here's the track, warts and all. I start off just... well, not in sync with the tempo. But I think basically I"m too much on the upbeats.

    While I don't wan't to be cruelly shredded, still, I would welcome some serious critique and advice on this. I think I could be a good comping player. I know a lot of good voicings, but I think I just get in the way somehow. I tried to play the head and solo over my own comping and kept getting lost and it never meshed at all the way good comping and soloing should.

    I think what I'm hearing is that the guitar is phrased behind the beat. As if you hear 1-e, and you hit the chord on the e. The comp will probably sound more propulsive if the chord is hit just before beat 1 of a measure. That is, anticipated, or "pushed", usually by an eighth (maybe by the third note in an eighth note triplet on beat 4?).

    Changing this requires a few days of sustained mental focus on hearing the change anticipated. It might help to play along with a backing track, quite slowly, and focus on hitting your chords on and-of-4, until that starts sounding "right" to you.

    Voicings, touch and tone were all fine. Good luck with it and keep us posted!

  20. #94

    User Info Menu

    I think if you’re aiming for a swing feel, the third triplet of beat 4 is the best starting point.

    in practice you lock up with the drummers ride skip note etc. You can only count triplets at slower speeds, but that’s a good idea until you internalise the placement for faster tempos.

  21. #95

    User Info Menu

    Wow you all have offered some really good suggestions. I made another track today with the Aebersold just playing mainly on 1 of each measure and it seemed a bit better. I will try the pushing and maybe just use a drum track or metronome.

    Thanks again. This is great stuff really. Thank you all for the time and insight. Just think, because of you, someone here in Central Kentucky will actually suck a little less!

  22. #96

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Wow you all have offered some really good suggestions. I made another track today with the Aebersold just playing mainly on 1 of each measure and it seemed a bit better. I will try the pushing and maybe just use a drum track or metronome.

    Thanks again. This is great stuff really. Thank you all for the time and insight. Just think, because of you, someone here in Central Kentucky will actually suck a little less!
    Yardbird Suite might be a good tune to practice this on. It has melody notes on the last eighth of the bar in a number of cases. So, if you sing the melody as you comp, the melody will get your chords in the right place.

  23. #97

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    it sounds like you have all the raw materials, but you need to put it together.
    Plus he has nice chords, I think.

    lawson-stone: that guitar is a beauty

  24. #98

    User Info Menu

    Lawson, took a listen, then played along.

    Nothing particularly bothered me about your comping. Maybe a little low heavy? I took a chorus over it, seemed fine, maybe for playing the head, you think more about the space in it (not too much in Donna) but punctuate that?

    Busy head like Donna Lee, if I'm comping I'm not playing much.

  25. #99

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Lawson, took a listen, then played along.

    Nothing particularly bothered me about your comping. Maybe a little low heavy? I took a chorus over it, seemed fine, maybe for playing the head, you think more about the space in it (not too much in Donna) but punctuate that?

    Busy head like Donna Lee, if I'm comping I'm not playing much.
    Yeah comping I tend to think "left hand on the piano" and have been burned a couple times by soloists complaining I'd comped over their line by playing in the same range. When the pianist did it, no complaints... not sure what to make of that!

    Thanks for the encouragement. I have also found that working on comping is helping me sort out some of Parker's phrasing at the end of his first chorus when he just blows right into the second and you barely realize you are in the second chorus. I have a track where I mechanically put a chord on beat 1 of each measure and playing over that unmasked some sloppy phrasing by me at the end of the first improv. chorus.

    At any rate, I've got a wonderful list of things to work on and try out, and feel pretty encouraged. That's a good day on the forum!

  26. #100

    User Info Menu

    I decided to try another stab at a comping track and playing with it. This works toward a minimal approach, basically a chord on 1 of each measure and a few other spots. I am actually impressed at how sometimes truly less is more.