The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #101

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    Then you get a dominant diminished scale and an b5 diminished scale for each of the 8 dominants

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  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Ha. No. It's more about not over complicating for the beginner. A major scale isn't a sixth diminished scale minus 1 note nor a chromatic scale minus5 notes, nor is it a pentatonic +2 notes. NONE of that is helpful.

    It has a very basic implication for how we want to discuss for someone trying to understand these things. If the beginner needs to know that is built from a major scale , it doesn't help to make it more complicated for my own sake.
    You could explain something to me, if you'd like to. Keeping to the major scale, the BH thing comes from harmonising the major bebop scale, right? That produces maj6 inversions interspersed with diminished chords. So the C maj scale (leaving out the G#o) would look like:

    C6, Do, C6/E, Fo, (Am7?), Bo, C6.

    I'm just stacking 4-note chords from the C major bebop scale. I'm not sure what happened to the Em7, or the F maj, or the G7. The F seems to have become a dim chord and the G7 doesn't seem to exist at all. Which, of course, is nonsense. If you reharmed a simple tune in C it would sound completely wrong.

    Of course, you could rearrange the order, which is fiddling it really, and say the F is now an Am7 (I think) and the G7 is a Bo. That would make more sense but it's changing the original plan. What does the Fo represent?

    Where am I going wrong? But, more important, what are you supposed to DO with this stuff? I just want to play nice tunes, not start from scratch again. This guy's messing with my mind!

    Help me, Matt


    (Don't anyone say it'll take too long to explain, I won't believe you :-) And no endless list of external links, please. I want someone here to do it. Then I'll listen most attentively)

  4. #103

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    Joe - Sorry, I changed it and reposted before I saw your posts.

    Borrowing? So the theory, like all theories, breaks down. You have no idea how I detest gurus with their stupid theories.

    Just stick to C, it's easier. Don't do 8 dominants or Eb, etc. You'll lose me.

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Joe - Sorry, I changed it and reposted.

    Borrowing? So the theory, like all theories, breaks down. You have no idea how I detest gurus with their stupid theories.
    it doesn't break down. it is the same as harmonizing a major scale like this
    CEGA
    DFAB

    or
    CFGB
    DGAC

    or any order you want. harmony doesn'y have to be stacked 3rds

  6. #105

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    I know that. I just did it:

    C E G A - C6
    D F G# B - Do
    E G A C - (C6)
    F G# B D - Fo
    G A C E - (C6)
    G# B D F - G#o
    A C E G - (C6)
    B D F G# - Bo
    C E G A - C6

    It doesn't make sense. There's no dominant at all. In fact, there's no sub-dominant either.

    Any order I want? You must be joking. That's not musical organisation.

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Any order I want? You must be joking. That's not musical organisation.
    disagree. If it's too dissonant for your taste don't do it, resolve the borrowed note, or ideally create actually music by having moving voices

  8. #107

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    I too haven't gotten very far with BH stuff, but as I understand it, the chords above provide a nice way to create movement within the harmony, not necessarily replace the original changes. You wouldn't replace Fmaj7 with Fdim7, but if you were hanging around in a C6-ish area, you could use the intermediate dim chords to move around and create melodies / nice voice-led harmony.

    Go as far with it as you wish, but if you understand things differently or have a different conception, then obviously trust your own ears/mind. It's a fun exploration if anything, and digging into it might reveal some things.

  9. #108

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    Joe -

    I'm listening. From what I understand, it's not supposed to be dissonant. I thought it was supposed to move gracefully, which the diminished sounds create. It's about movement, not dissonance. But I don't see how.

    As I said, if one's only going to take what suits then one may as well use any reharm technique one likes. Change all doms to diminished, all majors to 6s or 69s, etc, etc. Which I frequently do anyway...

    But that's not the BH theory as I understand it.

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarketTomato
    I too haven't gotten very far with BH stuff, but as I understand it, the chords above provide a nice way to create movement within the harmony, not necessarily replace the original changes. You wouldn't replace Fmaj7 with Fdim7, but if you were hanging around in a C6-ish area, you could use the intermediate dim chords to move around and create melodies / nice voice-led harmony.

    Go as far with it as you wish, but if you understand things differently or have a different conception, then obviously trust your own ears/mind. It's a fun exploration if anything, and digging into it might reveal some things.
    Yes, I wrote my post before I read yours. Exactly, movement. But, as I said, I do that anyway, nothing to do with BH.

  11. #110

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    Ragman, do you understand what a dominant is, and how it functions?

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    But that's not the BH theory as I understand it.
    that's what it is though. If it was just moving the harmonized scale in parallel motion I could have stopped studying it 5 years ago

  13. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I know that. I just did it:

    C E G A - C6
    D F G# B - Do
    E G A C - (C6)
    F G# B D - Fo
    G A C E - (C6)
    G# B D F - G#o
    A C E G - (C6)
    B D F G# - Bo
    C E G A - C6

    It doesn't make sense. There's no dominant at all. In fact, there's no sub-dominant either.

    Any order I want? You must be joking. That's not musical organisation.
    There are a million videos of Barry Harris actually applying this to real music , as well as many others. This is also the organization Wes Montgomery used on his at-tempo chord solos. It's all very real music that all of us have heard a million times. Check them out, and then come back with examples of ones you don't think SOUND good.Theoretical, on-paper stuff can get tedious quickly, especially when you haven't actually checked it out.

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Wilson -

    Well, if it wasn't the scale being played, what relevance has it?
    Well, we have successfully opened a vein..but I think it's a good thing. We might as well get things out in the open although I believe that there is a "FOR SALE" sign on the OP's instrument.

    First the Barry Harris harmonic system is not a harmonization of the "bebop" scale. The combinations of C6 inversions and D dim inversions will produce a #5 b6 in the scale but that is a buy product and not an origin. Dr. Harris sees the "bebop" scale as too limiting.

    Second. I'm not blindly following a "guru" onto a dead end street. I expect that Mr. Harris' intellect is far more vast then my own and I simply strive to absorb some of it; I believe his history speaks for itself.

    Since everyone is "waxing" poetic I'll tee off too.

    I spent HALF of my musical life living in the C maj 7 scale while chasing the accidentals in between to try and form a more interesting sound.

    You can imagine my delight, when, in NYC at a class of Barry's that he said, "Look, we are throwing out the diatonic scale and now living in the chromatic scale...don't worry we'll get a harmonizing system eventually (puff of smoke)."
    So I took him at his word.

    Now I'd like to address the quote above.

    ragman1-

    Imagine you are comping a diva over "Blue Moon" and you intro with a 1,6,2,5, and she does two choruses, 1,6,2,5 and now you are about to turn blue as that moon in your turn, with another 1,6,2,5. So, you block that G (root) in your inversion of the V chord...

    xx3433

    with a 9 xx3435 (didn't Mr. Person do that with that inversion of Ab6 adding a G?)

    Well, you have now brought in Dmin6 dim scale (IMHO) without playing a thing because that chord you just formed is D min6 / F. So you think why not use it..the concept of putting a min6 on the 5th of the V chord?

    So, now you play your turn:

    x35453

    x7868x that's the first dim of the Dmin 6 dim scale which yo have now put on the 5 of the V chord (peddle that G!)

    x5658x that's the min6 (6 in the base with same borrowed note G from the dim) on the 5 of the "back door" (Bb) peddle that G!

    x89811x that's the min6 (6 in the base borrow Bb from dim) on the 5 of the tritone of the V chord....

    x7778x start the next chorus with another BH built chord.

    Look at the pretty turn you made using a scale that was never played.

  15. #114

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    Ragman, I suggest you spare a few minutes to watch this video, he shows practical useages of the 6 dim and borrowing stuff (on the guitar). Honestly this will give you a much quicker idea of it than wading through loads of verbal explanations on the forum.

    (Having said that, Wilson1 has just given you some nice examples too. The point is you can get a lot of nice sounds just using the various 6 dim concepts).


  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Ragman, do you understand what a dominant is, and how it functions?
    Definitely.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    that's what it is though.
    I doubt it. If one has to borrow and adjust it to taste it's an incomplete theory!

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    There are a million videos of Barry Harris actually applying this to real music , as well as many others. This is also the organization Wes Montgomery used on his at-tempo chord solos. It's all very real music that all of us have heard a million times. Check them out, and then come back with examples of ones you don't think SOUND good.Theoretical, on-paper stuff can get tedious quickly, especially when you haven't actually checked it out.
    I've heard them. You don't know I haven't checked them out. And you're not answering my question (yet)!

  19. #118

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    Wilson -

    First the Barry Harris harmonic system is not a harmonization of the "bebop" scale.
    Well, sorry, but it's exactly the same notes. Irrelevant anyway because the chords derived are the same, with the same problem.

    we are throwing out the diatonic scale
    Great. That puts you firmly in his grip, of course :-)

    Imagine you are comping a diva over "Blue Moon" and you intro with a 1,6,2,5, and she does two choruses, 1,6,2,5 and now you are about to turn blue as that moon in your turn, with another 1,6,2,5. So, you block that G (root) in your inversion of the V chord...

    xx3433
    I frequently do that anyway. 69 chords sound very nice in the right place.

    you have now brought in Dmin6 dim scale (IMHO)
    If you say so. In your opinion. Opinion? What's that?

    The common way of playing Ipanema is in F, starting with FM7. Gilberto does it in Db starting with Db69. You'll be telling me next he's applying the Barry Harris theory. I don't think so. 69s are standard fare in Bossa, as are diminished chords.

    You're not really explaining it, sorry. Those are just examples. But the effort was good :-)

  20. #119

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    Graham -

    I'm watching it :-)

  21. #120

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    Rag -

    I don't think it's up to theory to be "complete" based on every individual's criteria. I certainly don't think any music theory is really complete, or ever will be, but that doesn't mean it can't provide a lot of value to us. All information is filtered through our own understanding, experience etc.

    Also, to your point about there being no dominant in the 6th dim: every other chord is a dominant and can function as V7, but I get where you're coming from if you're taking the very literal naming into account and not necessarily the function.

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I doubt it. If one has to borrow and adjust it to taste it's an incomplete theory!
    if one doesn't borrow and adjust ANY scale it's a boring theory. Say goodbye to 9th chords, 13th chords or anything interesting

  23. #122

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    Of course you can play all these chords without any BH thinking. But what I like is that the basic concept is so simple, just 6 dim and min6 dim chords are all you need to learn. From that you can generate a lot of great sounds and create smooth movement between them.

    The way I got into it was that I was trying to play Wes-type chord solos using diatonic chords from major scale, and it was just too difficult. Then I found the BH stuff and suddenly it all got a lot easier (and of course I realised that was basically what Wes was doing too. Although he probably didn’t know it as ‘Barry Harris’, the ideas have been around a long time, e.g. big band arrangers did similar things I believe).

    I’m not much of a ‘theory’ person, but Barry’s approach makes a lot of practical sense to me.

  24. #123

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    By the way, the ‘borrowing’ makes perfect sense. It just means you can modify any of the 6/dim chords by taking a note (or notes) from one of the adjacent chords in the scale. So you are still using only notes in the 6 dim scale.

    Some of the results might sound odd, some sound great, it’s up to you which you like or don’t like, either way it’s another very simple concept with lots of useful implications.

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    if one doesn't borrow and adjust ANY scale it's a boring theory. Say goodbye to 9th chords, 13th chords or anything interesting
    No-o-o, those are standard embellishments based on stacking 3rds. The BH thing is about complete substitution. As far as I know.

  26. #125

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    Graham -

    I've watched it. This is what I wrote down as we went along. I'm NOT trying to stubbornly resist or rubbish all this although it's critical. I'm open to it. Obviously it's opened up new harmonies for chord melody players and compers. So -

    The 1st example your vid shows is basically the same as playing GM7/ Am7-Bbo - Bm7, a standard move, like Nuages.

    The 2nd is an embellished m7 then a Bb7#5b9. Standard alt move.

    3rd - ATTYA. Fm7 to Bbm7 'which Barry doesn't refer to as a Bbm7 but a Db6'. But why complicate your life, for chrissakes? What's wrong with a Bbm7? I play it with the m6 note (G) anyway.

    Well, I can see how, instead of Fm7 - Bbm7, playing Ab6 - Db6 gives you quite a nice sound (fingered correctly) but is it really worth all the sweat?

    Frankly, when he played several bars of, presumably, ATTYA, it did not sound good. Not to my ear. He was grabbing at standard dim shapes. I agree with him on one point, though, it's almost certainly a damn sight easier on a piano than a guitar.

    But I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why the chords derived from the maj bebop scale (by whatever name) has no dominant in it. The 7b9/dim is forced upon you. Well, unless you ditch it as inappropriate and play a good ol' 7alt or something.