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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone View Post
    How about:

    Am7/D7 - Gm7/C7 - FM7

    and then reharm it as

    C6o/Ebm6o - Bb6o/Dbm6o - F6o
    C6o= C Sixth Diminished Harmonized 8 note scale

    Ebm6o - Eb Minor Sixth Diminished Harmonized 8 note scale
    Right, I've got it. All I was doing, per my post, was subbing straightforward chords with 6-for-m7s and dims for dominants. It was an experiment, one chord per bar.

    You are, I think, suggesting, by using the 6dim scale, using several chords per bar instead of one. To produce tasty movement. I think that's what you're saying.

    I understood that idea before - I got it very quickly - but it wasn't what I was trying to do. It was an experiment in single note playing, that's all.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #202

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    Ok let’s try and answer your points. First off, I am not so familiar with Barry’s single-note (Improvisation) system, I know the ‘harmonic’ system (chords and chord movement) much better.

    All I know about the single-note system has largely been gleaned from that TILFBH YouTube channel.

    I don’t think it is primarily built around the 6/dim stuff (Chris does do a couple of videos on using the 6/dim to generate single-note lines, but that does not seem to be the primary method, just another option you can add in).

    The main method uses the standard major, dominant and min6 scales. You usually only play them up to the 7th note or down from there. We are not talking 8-Note bebop scales here, it is just your standard scale, in one octave. (The only exception is the min6 where he does add the b6 note and plays up to the 6 only.)

    In a ii-V situation, Barry generally ignores the ii and just plays the dominant scale for the V, over both chords.

    If the chord is a tonic minor, then he plays the min6 scale over it.

    After that, there are all sorts of rules about adding chromatic half-steps, pivots etc to the scales, using arpeggios, scales on the tritone, etc etc, this helps generate lines that sound more like proper ‘bebop’ language. Like I said, I am no expert on this bit.

    Pretty sure the first few videos on that channel talk about all this stuff, it’s a while since I saw them.

    Because I spent years and taught myself to play these kind of lines by copying stuff off records, I already had my bebop vocabulary figured out before I even came across the BH system. So I haven’t bothered to invest much time in it. But I have watched those videos and I have got some useful ideas from it.

    I don’t know why he made that comment about ATTYA. I think maybe it’s because you’ve got 2 minor chords one after the other, he might have meant he didn’t know specifically how Barry would address it with scales. There isn’t a dominant chord until bar 3, so how does Barry address the Fm? Is it treated as if it’s a tonic minor i.e. Fm6 scale (that doesn’t sound right though)? I’m not sure myself. I mean I know what I can do with it, I’m just not sure what Barry’s recommended approach would be. Maybe just play Ab over it?

    But there are others here who know this system much better than I do, what I have given is probably a very limited summary, and only of my understanding of it.
    Last edited by grahambop; 11-18-2019 at 08:33 AM.

  4. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Damn, something's happened to that recording. Have you got the original? You better repost it, it's not something that should be lost.

    There's also your SoundCloud stuff. Blue Bossa's not a one-off.
    It’s still there on YouTube (fortunately!) and I can see it in your post, maybe you had a technical glitch, funny things happen on the way to the forum(!).

    (In that video thumbnail I can see a book about the Anzio landings on my bookshelf, must read that again sometime!)

    I did that Blue Bossa video about ten years ago, and I didn’t know diddly-squat about Barry’s improv system until about a year ago. So not a direct influence.

    But like I said, I learned all my stuff off records, so I suppose I was getting it from the same source as Barry, in a way. Certainly I intuitively seem to use a lot of the same devices as I see Chris using in the videos, I just don’t have names or rules for them.
    Last edited by grahambop; 11-18-2019 at 08:45 AM.

  5. #204

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    Hi, Graham -

    Yes, I've seen nearly all the TILFBH vids by now. He occasionally does bursts of single notes and they sound terrific but he doesn't explain them

    Also some of Christian's vids and some others too. There's someone called Bill Graham (presumably not an evangelist ). He appears to be quite good but, again, no performance. I wish they would. Barry Greene, for example, goes through all his lessons and ends it with a performance so you know it can be done.

    I'm aware you know the chord stuff better. Doesn't matter. Mind you, you also play the single note stuff very well too. I've heard you say before that you got it off records. Just like the old guys used to do. Actually, that's how I taught myself too, but it wasn't jazz.

    I used to teach quite a lot. The hardest people were those who could already play because they were fixed in their habits. Getting them to even add in something different, let alone change it, was murder. Old dogs and new tricks... and that might apply to me too. I feel totally comfortable just launching into my usual things, which are usually quite adequate, that starting again with certain things seems retrogressive.

    I don't understand the ATTYA thing, to be honest. If, as you say, each chord is taken by itself (not by the number in the scale) then why not Ab6 for the Fm7? I mean, note-wise, it's still Fm. Or just play Fm7! Then he can treat the Bbm7 - Eb7 as all Eb7.

    I saw the vid where he only goes so far up a scale. Then the next chord, only up so far, etc. Okay, but that's the point - show us how that's supposed to connect together and be used in a performance, i.e. play several bars in a row.

    I'm also wary about all these 'rules' you're supposed to follow in the single note stuff. I'm used to just letting loose, not watching my every move restricted by rules. It's suffocating just thinking about it.

    Anyway, thanks for all your input. Much appreciated!
    Last edited by ragman1; 11-18-2019 at 09:07 AM.

  6. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    It’s still there on YouTube (fortunately!) and I can see it in your post.
    Yes, I pasted it in from YouTube. It doesn't play properly, it stops, starts, and drops out. But my system's working fine. No problem with the audio at all in any way. So I don't know. Changing browsers has no effect either.

    Sounds like this. No, really.


  7. #206

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    Anyway, here's BH doing ATTYA. He favours the ii-V's as m7b5 - 7b9. He says the other (major) way is all wrong. And he means wrong.


  8. #207

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    Very odd, the Blue Bossa video plays and sounds fine for me, I’m playing it on my iPad via the forum post where you pasted it. Maybe some program is running on your computer that is glitching it. My desktop computer is so old it sometimes does things like that, it can’t buffer the audio fast enough or something. Or could be YouTube, or the internet, who knows.

    I think the aim of the BH rules is to codify and give ‘bebop beginners’ a structured set of rules they can use to build up reasonable lines. I don’t see anything wrong with that in principle. However I think Barry stresses the importance of getting language off the records too.

    I think the lines Chris plays in those videos are pretty good when he chucks in all the various devices, you could string those together and make a decent solo. He does explain most of the devices he uses as I recall?

    It took me a long time to develop my stuff on my own, maybe if I’d used Barry’s process it might have got me there faster.

  9. #208

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    Well, all other YT vids play fine. It's the gremlins. I'll have to instigate a very serious inquiry...

    you could string those together and make a decent solo.
    Oh, no way!

    He does explain most of the devices he uses as I recall?
    I don't remember him doing that. I'll have another look.

    What do you think of that BH ATTYA? I know it's jazz, but he seems to have deserted the tune a bit.

  10. #209

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    I've solved it, to some extent anyway. I downloaded it and the download plays fine.

    Very weird. Nice playing!

  11. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Anyway, here's BH doing ATTYA. He favours the ii-V's as m7b5 - 7b9. He says the other (major) way is all wrong. And he means wrong.

    Sounds to me like Barry already knew the tune was old and everybody knew the melody, no need to beat us over the head with it (though it's there)

    One thing I love about this video is that he DOESN'T play the melodic rhythm fragment in bar 6 that only happens in bar 14, but for some reason, folks play it in bar 6 too, and it drives me up the friggin' wall. Learn the damn words.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  12. #211

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    If you get tired of the Barry Harris method, there’s always the Harry Barris method:


  13. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Sounds to me like Barry already knew the tune was old and everybody knew the melody, no need to beat us over the head with it (though it's there)

    One thing I love about this video is that he DOESN'T play the melodic rhythm fragment in bar 6 that only happens in bar 14, but for some reason, folks play it in bar 6 too, and it drives me up the friggin' wall. Learn the damn words.
    Never done it in my life. Just played it in my head and that was bad enough. Who does that (to save me trawling through endless versions)?

    I've looked at about ten so far. Do I hear WES do it (very softly) here?!


  14. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Never done it in my life. Just played it in my head and that was bad enough. Who does that (to save me trawling through endless versions)?

    I've looked at about ten so far. Do I hear WES do it (very softly) here?!

    He does. Wes gets a pass, I suppose

    Generally, the people I hear do it aren't anybody worth listening to.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  15. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    He does. Wes gets a pass, I suppose

    Generally, the people I hear do it aren't anybody worth listening to.
    I thought that's what you meant. Goody, that's me off the hook. Mind you, can't go wrong reading the head :-)

  16. #215

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    This one's only got a couple of nods to BH insofar as one or two m7s are played as 6s. Apart from that, any resemblance is entirely fortuitous. The only ii-V I've changed is the F#m because I think as an m7 it's too brash, so m7b5.

    As you know, I refuse to play fast, it makes me nervous. It's dedicated to the thread because all I really want to do is play tunes :-)

    Last edited by ragman1; 11-19-2019 at 02:43 AM.

  17. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Very odd, the Blue Bossa video plays and sounds fine for me, I’m playing it on my iPad via the forum post where you pasted it. Maybe some program is running on your computer that is glitching it. My desktop computer is so old it sometimes does things like that, it can’t buffer the audio fast enough or something. Or could be YouTube, or the internet, who knows.

    I think the aim of the BH rules is to codify and give ‘bebop beginners’ a structured set of rules they can use to build up reasonable lines. I don’t see anything wrong with that in principle. However I think Barry stresses the importance of getting language off the records too.
    From my experiences trying to teach some of his stuff,I think the opposite. I think you can get to a pretty high level copping things off records, but if you want to learn to to play bop with more fluency, creativity and less cliche, the Barry Harris approach is very useful.

    Which is not to say it can't be useful for other things. But I kind of find the ideal student for this stuff is someone who's already checked out the music and can understand its relevance.

  18. #217

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    This is really the man for chords. Advanced, though.


  19. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    This is really the man for chords. Advanced, though.


    @ 0:23 he got that Ab from C6 dim scale (first dim D... tenor voice Ab) and put it between the 6 of the C6 and the 5 of the C6 chord.
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!