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  1. #101

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    Then you get a dominant diminished scale and an b5 diminished scale for each of the 8 dominants
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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Ha. No. It's more about not over complicating for the beginner. A major scale isn't a sixth diminished scale minus 1 note nor a chromatic scale minus5 notes, nor is it a pentatonic +2 notes. NONE of that is helpful.

    It has a very basic implication for how we want to discuss for someone trying to understand these things. If the beginner needs to know that is built from a major scale , it doesn't help to make it more complicated for my own sake.
    You could explain something to me, if you'd like to. Keeping to the major scale, the BH thing comes from harmonising the major bebop scale, right? That produces maj6 inversions interspersed with diminished chords. So the C maj scale (leaving out the G#o) would look like:

    C6, Do, C6/E, Fo, (Am7?), Bo, C6.

    I'm just stacking 4-note chords from the C major bebop scale. I'm not sure what happened to the Em7, or the F maj, or the G7. The F seems to have become a dim chord and the G7 doesn't seem to exist at all. Which, of course, is nonsense. If you reharmed a simple tune in C it would sound completely wrong.

    Of course, you could rearrange the order, which is fiddling it really, and say the F is now an Am7 (I think) and the G7 is a Bo. That would make more sense but it's changing the original plan. What does the Fo represent?

    Where am I going wrong? But, more important, what are you supposed to DO with this stuff? I just want to play nice tunes, not start from scratch again. This guy's messing with my mind!

    Help me, Matt


    (Don't anyone say it'll take too long to explain, I won't believe you :-) And no endless list of external links, please. I want someone here to do it. Then I'll listen most attentively)

  4. #103

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    Joe - Sorry, I changed it and reposted before I saw your posts.

    Borrowing? So the theory, like all theories, breaks down. You have no idea how I detest gurus with their stupid theories.

    Just stick to C, it's easier. Don't do 8 dominants or Eb, etc. You'll lose me.

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Joe - Sorry, I changed it and reposted.

    Borrowing? So the theory, like all theories, breaks down. You have no idea how I detest gurus with their stupid theories.
    it doesn't break down. it is the same as harmonizing a major scale like this
    CEGA
    DFAB

    or
    CFGB
    DGAC

    or any order you want. harmony doesn'y have to be stacked 3rds
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  6. #105

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    I know that. I just did it:

    C E G A - C6
    D F G# B - Do
    E G A C - (C6)
    F G# B D - Fo
    G A C E - (C6)
    G# B D F - G#o
    A C E G - (C6)
    B D F G# - Bo
    C E G A - C6

    It doesn't make sense. There's no dominant at all. In fact, there's no sub-dominant either.

    Any order I want? You must be joking. That's not musical organisation.

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Any order I want? You must be joking. That's not musical organisation.
    disagree. If it's too dissonant for your taste don't do it, resolve the borrowed note, or ideally create actually music by having moving voices
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  8. #107

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    I too haven't gotten very far with BH stuff, but as I understand it, the chords above provide a nice way to create movement within the harmony, not necessarily replace the original changes. You wouldn't replace Fmaj7 with Fdim7, but if you were hanging around in a C6-ish area, you could use the intermediate dim chords to move around and create melodies / nice voice-led harmony.

    Go as far with it as you wish, but if you understand things differently or have a different conception, then obviously trust your own ears/mind. It's a fun exploration if anything, and digging into it might reveal some things.

  9. #108

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    Joe -

    I'm listening. From what I understand, it's not supposed to be dissonant. I thought it was supposed to move gracefully, which the diminished sounds create. It's about movement, not dissonance. But I don't see how.

    As I said, if one's only going to take what suits then one may as well use any reharm technique one likes. Change all doms to diminished, all majors to 6s or 69s, etc, etc. Which I frequently do anyway...

    But that's not the BH theory as I understand it.

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarketTomato View Post
    I too haven't gotten very far with BH stuff, but as I understand it, the chords above provide a nice way to create movement within the harmony, not necessarily replace the original changes. You wouldn't replace Fmaj7 with Fdim7, but if you were hanging around in a C6-ish area, you could use the intermediate dim chords to move around and create melodies / nice voice-led harmony.

    Go as far with it as you wish, but if you understand things differently or have a different conception, then obviously trust your own ears/mind. It's a fun exploration if anything, and digging into it might reveal some things.
    Yes, I wrote my post before I read yours. Exactly, movement. But, as I said, I do that anyway, nothing to do with BH.

  11. #110

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    Ragman, do you understand what a dominant is, and how it functions?

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    But that's not the BH theory as I understand it.
    that's what it is though. If it was just moving the harmonized scale in parallel motion I could have stopped studying it 5 years ago
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  13. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I know that. I just did it:

    C E G A - C6
    D F G# B - Do
    E G A C - (C6)
    F G# B D - Fo
    G A C E - (C6)
    G# B D F - G#o
    A C E G - (C6)
    B D F G# - Bo
    C E G A - C6

    It doesn't make sense. There's no dominant at all. In fact, there's no sub-dominant either.

    Any order I want? You must be joking. That's not musical organisation.
    There are a million videos of Barry Harris actually applying this to real music , as well as many others. This is also the organization Wes Montgomery used on his at-tempo chord solos. It's all very real music that all of us have heard a million times. Check them out, and then come back with examples of ones you don't think SOUND good.Theoretical, on-paper stuff can get tedious quickly, especially when you haven't actually checked it out.

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Wilson -

    Well, if it wasn't the scale being played, what relevance has it?
    Well, we have successfully opened a vein..but I think it's a good thing. We might as well get things out in the open although I believe that there is a "FOR SALE" sign on the OP's instrument.

    First the Barry Harris harmonic system is not a harmonization of the "bebop" scale. The combinations of C6 inversions and D dim inversions will produce a #5 b6 in the scale but that is a buy product and not an origin. Dr. Harris sees the "bebop" scale as too limiting.

    Second. I'm not blindly following a "guru" onto a dead end street. I expect that Mr. Harris' intellect is far more vast then my own and I simply strive to absorb some of it; I believe his history speaks for itself.

    Since everyone is "waxing" poetic I'll tee off too.

    I spent HALF of my musical life living in the C maj 7 scale while chasing the accidentals in between to try and form a more interesting sound.

    You can imagine my delight, when, in NYC at a class of Barry's that he said, "Look, we are throwing out the diatonic scale and now living in the chromatic scale...don't worry we'll get a harmonizing system eventually (puff of smoke)."
    So I took him at his word.

    Now I'd like to address the quote above.

    ragman1-

    Imagine you are comping a diva over "Blue Moon" and you intro with a 1,6,2,5, and she does two choruses, 1,6,2,5 and now you are about to turn blue as that moon in your turn, with another 1,6,2,5. So, you block that G (root) in your inversion of the V chord...

    xx3433

    with a 9 xx3435 (didn't Mr. Person do that with that inversion of Ab6 adding a G?)

    Well, you have now brought in Dmin6 dim scale (IMHO) without playing a thing because that chord you just formed is D min6 / F. So you think why not use it..the concept of putting a min6 on the 5th of the V chord?

    So, now you play your turn:

    x35453

    x7868x that's the first dim of the Dmin 6 dim scale which yo have now put on the 5 of the V chord (peddle that G!)

    x5658x that's the min6 (6 in the base with same borrowed note G from the dim) on the 5 of the "back door" (Bb) peddle that G!

    x89811x that's the min6 (6 in the base borrow Bb from dim) on the 5 of the tritone of the V chord....

    x7778x start the next chorus with another BH built chord.

    Look at the pretty turn you made using a scale that was never played.
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  15. #114

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    Ragman, I suggest you spare a few minutes to watch this video, he shows practical useages of the 6 dim and borrowing stuff (on the guitar). Honestly this will give you a much quicker idea of it than wading through loads of verbal explanations on the forum.

    (Having said that, Wilson1 has just given you some nice examples too. The point is you can get a lot of nice sounds just using the various 6 dim concepts).


  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Ragman, do you understand what a dominant is, and how it functions?
    Definitely.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    that's what it is though.
    I doubt it. If one has to borrow and adjust it to taste it's an incomplete theory!

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    There are a million videos of Barry Harris actually applying this to real music , as well as many others. This is also the organization Wes Montgomery used on his at-tempo chord solos. It's all very real music that all of us have heard a million times. Check them out, and then come back with examples of ones you don't think SOUND good.Theoretical, on-paper stuff can get tedious quickly, especially when you haven't actually checked it out.
    I've heard them. You don't know I haven't checked them out. And you're not answering my question (yet)!

  19. #118

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    Wilson -

    First the Barry Harris harmonic system is not a harmonization of the "bebop" scale.
    Well, sorry, but it's exactly the same notes. Irrelevant anyway because the chords derived are the same, with the same problem.

    we are throwing out the diatonic scale
    Great. That puts you firmly in his grip, of course :-)

    Imagine you are comping a diva over "Blue Moon" and you intro with a 1,6,2,5, and she does two choruses, 1,6,2,5 and now you are about to turn blue as that moon in your turn, with another 1,6,2,5. So, you block that G (root) in your inversion of the V chord...

    xx3433
    I frequently do that anyway. 69 chords sound very nice in the right place.

    you have now brought in Dmin6 dim scale (IMHO)
    If you say so. In your opinion. Opinion? What's that?

    The common way of playing Ipanema is in F, starting with FM7. Gilberto does it in Db starting with Db69. You'll be telling me next he's applying the Barry Harris theory. I don't think so. 69s are standard fare in Bossa, as are diminished chords.

    You're not really explaining it, sorry. Those are just examples. But the effort was good :-)

  20. #119

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    Graham -

    I'm watching it :-)

  21. #120

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    Rag -

    I don't think it's up to theory to be "complete" based on every individual's criteria. I certainly don't think any music theory is really complete, or ever will be, but that doesn't mean it can't provide a lot of value to us. All information is filtered through our own understanding, experience etc.

    Also, to your point about there being no dominant in the 6th dim: every other chord is a dominant and can function as V7, but I get where you're coming from if you're taking the very literal naming into account and not necessarily the function.

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I doubt it. If one has to borrow and adjust it to taste it's an incomplete theory!
    if one doesn't borrow and adjust ANY scale it's a boring theory. Say goodbye to 9th chords, 13th chords or anything interesting
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  23. #122

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    Of course you can play all these chords without any BH thinking. But what I like is that the basic concept is so simple, just 6 dim and min6 dim chords are all you need to learn. From that you can generate a lot of great sounds and create smooth movement between them.

    The way I got into it was that I was trying to play Wes-type chord solos using diatonic chords from major scale, and it was just too difficult. Then I found the BH stuff and suddenly it all got a lot easier (and of course I realised that was basically what Wes was doing too. Although he probably didn’t know it as ‘Barry Harris’, the ideas have been around a long time, e.g. big band arrangers did similar things I believe).

    I’m not much of a ‘theory’ person, but Barry’s approach makes a lot of practical sense to me.

  24. #123

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    By the way, the ‘borrowing’ makes perfect sense. It just means you can modify any of the 6/dim chords by taking a note (or notes) from one of the adjacent chords in the scale. So you are still using only notes in the 6 dim scale.

    Some of the results might sound odd, some sound great, it’s up to you which you like or don’t like, either way it’s another very simple concept with lots of useful implications.

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    if one doesn't borrow and adjust ANY scale it's a boring theory. Say goodbye to 9th chords, 13th chords or anything interesting
    No-o-o, those are standard embellishments based on stacking 3rds. The BH thing is about complete substitution. As far as I know.

  26. #125

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    Graham -

    I've watched it. This is what I wrote down as we went along. I'm NOT trying to stubbornly resist or rubbish all this although it's critical. I'm open to it. Obviously it's opened up new harmonies for chord melody players and compers. So -

    The 1st example your vid shows is basically the same as playing GM7/ Am7-Bbo - Bm7, a standard move, like Nuages.

    The 2nd is an embellished m7 then a Bb7#5b9. Standard alt move.

    3rd - ATTYA. Fm7 to Bbm7 'which Barry doesn't refer to as a Bbm7 but a Db6'. But why complicate your life, for chrissakes? What's wrong with a Bbm7? I play it with the m6 note (G) anyway.

    Well, I can see how, instead of Fm7 - Bbm7, playing Ab6 - Db6 gives you quite a nice sound (fingered correctly) but is it really worth all the sweat?

    Frankly, when he played several bars of, presumably, ATTYA, it did not sound good. Not to my ear. He was grabbing at standard dim shapes. I agree with him on one point, though, it's almost certainly a damn sight easier on a piano than a guitar.

    But I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why the chords derived from the maj bebop scale (by whatever name) has no dominant in it. The 7b9/dim is forced upon you. Well, unless you ditch it as inappropriate and play a good ol' 7alt or something.

  27. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I've heard them. You don't know I haven't checked them out. And you're not answering my question (yet)!
    You insist that you know everything and nothing at the same time. "It makes no sense",.... but you understand it . You demand that someone on the forum explain it , not an outside link . Not actual music played by Wes Montgomery , Barry Harris etc. etc. just feels like trolling honestly.

    Barry Harris basically has laid out how HE likes to teach people to emulate the thing that Wes and tons of other jazz musicians have been doing for decades . You don't like thinking about it that way and think it's too contrived. The end. Period.

    There's nothing else to discuss. His method is for his own use to teach people who are INTERESTED in learning from HIM. It doesn't have anything to do with justifying himself to other people who AREN'T interested or disagree. You're wasting everybody's time. No one's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to except something you don't care for.

    No. I'm not going to stop and justify someone else's personal methodology or philosophy to you , and I don't think anyone else should either. Take it or leave it. You don't have to like everything and accept every idea, but demanding proofs from everyone repeatedly after already starting you're refusal of the ideas is just textbook trolling. Enough.

  28. #127

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    As for what to do with it, here's what I do with it. If I used standard block 7th chords through the whole thing (like when beginners start) It would sound a 100% different. I couldn't develop my personal artistic voice doing things that way.
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  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    You insist that you know everything and nothing at the same time. "It makes no sense",.... but you understand it . You demand that someone on the forum explain it , not an outside link . Not actual music played by Wes Montgomery , Barry Harris etc. etc. just feels like trolling honestly.

    Barry Harris basically has laid out how HE likes to teach people to emulate the thing that Wes and tons of other jazz musicians have been doing for decades . You don't like thinking about it that way and think it's too contrived. The end. Period.

    There's nothing else to discuss. His method is for his own use to teach people who are INTERESTED in learning from HIM. It doesn't have anything to do with justifying himself to other people who AREN'T interested or disagree. You're wasting everybody's time. No one's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to except something you don't care for.

    No. I'm not going to stop and justify someone else's personal methodology or philosophy to you , and I don't think anyone else should either. Take it or leave it. You don't have to like everything and accept every idea, but demanding proofs from everyone repeatedly after already starting you're refusal of the ideas is just textbook trolling. Enough.
    I'm not trolling, Matt. You're attacking me, which is defensive. I'd have expected better of you. At least the others have made an effort. Just say you can't, or don't want to, explain it, I'll accept that.

  30. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    As for what to do with it, here's what I do with it. If I used standard block 7th chords through the whole thing (like when beginners start) It would sound a 100% different. I couldn't develop my personal artistic voice doing things that way.
    Right, I see what you're doing. Some of it is dissonant. Is that dissonance the result of applying the BH ideas or just the way you like to play it? I'm not saying I don't like it, btw.

  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Right, I see what you're doing. Some of it is dissonant. Is that dissonance the result of applying the BH ideas or just the way you like to play it? I'm not saying I don't like it, btw.
    Yeah the dissonance is how i chose to utilize BH stuff. It can be super vanilla if you'd like
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  32. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Just say you can't, or don't want to, explain it, I'll accept that.
    Like....
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    No. I'm not going to stop and justify someone else's personal methodology or philosophy to you , and I don't think anyone else should either. Take it or leave it.

  33. #132

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    Ragman, you’re free to find nothing useful in it, I don’t mind at all. You asked for some explanations. My 2 posts just above say what I like about it. Essentially it is the simplicity of the concept, which can nevertheless be opened out into a huge range of possibilities.

    By the way if you want dominant sounds, you can play:
    dim chords (obviously) (for 7b9)
    min6 dim scale on the 5th (for unaltered dominant, i.e. Dom 9)
    min6 dim scale on the flat 2 (for altered dominant i.e. 7#5b9)

    Barry also has Dom7/dim and Dom7b5/dim scales, but I don’t use them much, the ones above are enough for me.

    People often dismiss Barry’s stuff for some reason. I must admit I am a sceptical person and I was inclined to do the same, until I started applying it to actual tunes, chord solos, comping, solo guitar harmonisations etc. Then it really started to make sense.

    Also I don’t regard BH stuff as replacing what I already knew. But it adds more tools to the toolbox as it were.

  34. #133

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    The title is a bit negative but this is also interesting. Another 3 pages... :-)

    Barry Harris, interesting, but...

  35. #134

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    Another thing I got from it: play Barry’s 6/dim stuff on the bottom 4 strings, omitting the 5th string, and you’ve got all the ‘freddie green’ type chords and movement you’ll ever need. Another handy application, I could never do that stuff so easily before.

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    you’re free to find nothing useful in it
    Never said that. On the contrary, I'm asking about it!

    By the way if you want dominant sounds, you can play:
    dim chords (obviously) (for 7b9)
    min6 dim scale on the 5th (for unaltered dominant, i.e. Dom 9)
    min6 dim scale on the flat 2 (for altered dominant i.e. 7#5b9)
    I do that already, or something very like it. Sometimes, rather than force an extra note, I just start a semitone in.

    People often dismiss Barry’s stuff for some reason. I must admit I am a sceptical person and I was inclined to do the same, until I started applying it to actual tunes, chord solos, comping, solo guitar harmonisations etc. Then it really started to make sense.
    Fair enough. Maybe I'm resisting spending a long time re-learning stuff, which is already difficult enough, to find it hasn't really improved things that much. That's possible.

    Also I don’t regard BH stuff as replacing what I already knew. But it adds more tools to the toolbox as it were
    .

    Quite, I understand that.

  37. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Another thing I got from it: play Barry’s 6/dim stuff on the bottom 4 strings, omitting the 5th string, and you’ve got all the ‘freddie green’ type chords and movement you’ll ever need. Another handy application, I could never do that stuff so easily before.
    Okay, that sounds realistic and not too difficult. I'm good at my shells :-)

    If you have time, have you got a short example of that to play? Say 8 or 16 bars? Maybe first the standard way, then the subs. Just the chord names should do it.

    If I had just one example to play it might lead to instant conversion, who knows? As you know, I much prefer practical examples rather than a million words and technical terms.

  38. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    The title is a bit negative but this is also interesting. Another 3 pages... :-)

    Barry Harris, interesting, but...
    Yes we’ve had a few BH threads over the years, I have probably read them all before!

    By the way to avoid confusion, there are really 2 BH systems. One is for improvising single-note bebop solos, it is built around major and dominant scales with various half-step rules etc. The other is the 6/dim scales for harmony. (Although I think he does use them a bit for soloing lines too).

    The ‘things I learned from BH’ YouTube channel is a great overview of both of them.

  39. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Okay, that sounds realistic and not too difficult. I'm good at my shells :-)

    If you have time, have you got a short example of that to play? Say 8 or 16 bars? Maybe first the standard way, then the subs. Just the chord names should do it.

    If I had just one example to play it might lead to instant conversion, who knows? As you know, I much prefer practical examples rather than a million words and technical terms.
    I should have some pdfs of stuff like this which I have posted before, I will see what I can find.

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Definitely.
    So you have like 4 dominant function chords cos the dim7s all sub in for V7b9

    No subdominant tho.

  41. #140

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    Here's something with shell chords for ATTYA. It's a bit busy, but I think the idea was to create as much movement between the chords as possible. The chord names given are the standard ones but all the chord shapes used are essentially BH 6th/Dim inversions (plus a few dom 7ths here and there I think).
    Attached Images Attached Images

  42. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    So you have like 4 dominant function chords cos the dim7s all sub in for V7b9

    No subdominant tho.
    Like an elephant with 4 trunks instead of one. Oh, great.

    But no tusks.

    Weird elephant.

    But I don't want a b9 sound all the time... too sweet by half. So I suppose this is where the 'do what you want' bit comes in. I mean, you can see why this stuff is strange, can't you?

  43. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Here's something with shell chords for ATTYA. It's a bit busy, but I think the idea was to create as much movement between the chords as possible. The chord names given are the standard ones but all the chord shapes used are essentially BH 6th/Dim inversions (plus a few dom 7ths here and there I think).
    Brilliant. Again.

    I've glanced at it quickly (it'll have to wait properly till tomorrow) but I can see an Fm7, Go, Ab6, Ab/C in the first bar. Then Bbm7, Co, Db6, Bbm7 in the second. Easy to play.

    Now I'm getting it. I'll have it sorted 'ere long. Maybe give you a blast. It's a good example too, lots of keys.

    Thank you, Graham. One day you can borrow my Ferrari :-)

    when I get one

  44. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Bbm7 'which Barry doesn't refer to as a Bbm7 but a Db6'. But why complicate your life, for chrissakes? What's wrong with a Bbm7? I play it with the m6 note (G) anyway.

    Well, I can see how, instead of Fm7 - Bbm7, playing Ab6 - Db6 gives you quite a nice sound (fingered correctly) but is it really worth all the sweat?
    This is an objection people always seem to make. But in practice it actually makes things simpler.

    i.e.
    Ab6 = Ab = Fm
    Abm6 = Abm = Db7 = G7alt = Fm7b5

    So just by learning the Ab maj6/dim and Ab min6/dim scale of chords you can play fluid chord movements over all these contexts. Sure it’s a bit slow to figure out at first, but when you start applying these for real on actual tunes you start to associate the various 6/dim chord scale shapes with the different contexts without thinking much. So you don’t actually think ‘I must convert Fm into Ab6’ while you’re playing, you just know the 6/dim scale that goes with that chord type and where it lies on the fingerboard.

    In the same way as an experienced player can play single-note lines over chord changes without much thought, this system eventually gets you to play ‘lines’ made up of chordal movements, but without having to learn a ton of different chord types and inversions.

    But of course it takes some work up-front. Alan Kingstone’s book is where I learned the 6/dim scales from, it makes the process a lot quicker if you have a clear set of the most useful scale shapes to work from.
    Last edited by grahambop; 11-14-2019 at 07:25 PM.

  45. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Brilliant. Again.

    I've glanced at it quickly (it'll have to wait properly till tomorrow) but I can see an Fm7, Go, Ab6, Ab/C in the first bar. Then Bbm7, Co, Db6, Bbm7 in the second. Easy to play.

    Now I'm getting it. I'll have it sorted 'ere long. Maybe give you a blast. It's a good example too, lots of keys.

    Thank you, Graham. One day you can borrow my Ferrari :-)

    when I get one
    cool, so you see that first bar is actually just inversions of Ab6 and G dim chords, that’s all they are (which is the Ab6/dim scale).

    So an experienced BH person can run that lot up an Fm chord like a ferret going up a drainpipe, without even having to think about it. And then it’s all Db6/dim on the second bar, and so on.

  46. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    like a ferret going up a drainpipe.
    Phwoar

    I'm getting it. Good for comping.

    Let's get this done first then maybe we can do the lines bit. One thing at a time :-)

  47. #146

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    Okay, first blast. It's half-speed (or less) to try it out. I get the picture. He's doing a lot of things I'd do anyway using shells, like going for the tritone and moving a shape up and down a fret. And the usual major to inversion run.

    I see the point but I'd probably have to swing it along a lot harder to get the full effect. Anyway, here's an excruciating couple of minutes :-)



    Early days. I might get to miss my maj7 sounds after a while... we'll see.

  48. #147

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    Graham -

    Well, I woke up this morning...

    Playig it in my head. Of course, it'll have to go a lot faster than that. I'm not Freddie on a bandstand banging out 4 different chords to the bar at a fast pace -

    (I used to do that with shells on Rhythm Changes very fast, probably still could)

    - so I think I might just take maybe two shapes to each bar. Also, although I know my 5th in the bass stuff too, I might use my fingers and play on the inside roots as well, it'll give some variety.

    So I can do that. But can we exist solely on shell voicings? Proper comping needs proper chords, depending on the tune. So there's that.

    Also I'm not going to give up on my M7 sounds entirely because a) I like them, and b) they're an alternative to 6s. In fact, in one or two bars of a major chord, swapping between the M7 and 6 is a good idea, gives movement.

    So I'd do it like this, so far. It's not as imaginative as your version and the finger-plucks are repetitive but I think it would probably pass muster with a solo on top.

    Thoughts?


  49. #148

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    Sounds good hearing someone else play it. Of course my example was deliberately a bit extreme, I crammed in as much movement as possible, kind of an exercise. Still sounded cool though!

    There are also 6 dim scales in drop 2, drop 3, partial chords (3 notes), across all possible string sets, so you aren’t limited to shell chords. I tend to mainly use the shells, and the drop 2 on middle 4 and top 4 strings, but that’s just a subset of what’s possible.

    You can play ma7 instead of ma6 sometimes, I do that too. Really it’s very flexible, the way I look at it is that by learning the essential 6 dim scale structures, I can quickly generate all these movements on a chord progression. Then by tweaking a note here and there (or as BH would call it, borrowing) I can get other colours into the mix at will.

    It’s not so much that I can get chords I wouldn’t get another way (although the borrowing thing can yield some quite unusual combinations), it’s more the ease and speed at which I can create all this fluid harmonic movement. Something I was finding much more cumbersome to do before.

  50. #149

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    How fast do you do it normally? As a backing, that is.

    the borrowing thing can yield some quite unusual combinations
    Such as? I'm all for unusual combinations :-)

  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Like an elephant with 4 trunks instead of one. Oh, great.

    But no tusks.

    I would think of the dominant as the tusk and the

    Weird elephant.
    I would have thought of dominant as the tusks. Each to their own

    But I don't want a b9 sound all the time... too sweet by half.

    So I suppose this is where the 'do what you want' bit comes in. I mean, you can see why this stuff is strange, can't you?
    You always do what you want (or what sounds right to you) when playing, or you should.

    When you practice, you don't. That's why practice is a bore but we have to do it to learn new stuff.

    If you see it as strange, that's one thing. Modern day jazz theory is pretty limited in some applications, focusses towards a certain set of sounds. But do you hear it as strange?

    1940s swing music? This is the style of harmony used in the saxophones very often... George Shearing's piano playing? It is old timey, actually...

    Barry didn't invent this stuff... People where harmonising in parallel block chords while he was still a kid.

    Barry simply took it a bit further. And it no longer sounds old timey because all the sounds are in there via borrowing and so on. And you havemore flexibility because you are no longer thinking in grips. But you start with the block chords...

    (At least that's the way it would be if I could actually do it on guitar. I've kind of given up.)