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Originally Posted by AaronMColeman
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10-22-2022 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
What Joplin did was the music of 1900. He couldn’t imagine the daily freedoms of black musicians in 1945. Dating a white woman? Now that’s unheard of even for 1945. But it happened.
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A lot of people get early jazz and ragtime confused
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Jelly Roll Morton and other pianists at the turn of the century were at the origins of jazz. They both played rags and improvised in that style. Then it was moved to full band with Dixieland around the 1910s. You guys need to calm down. And please drop it with the race thing, 2b. I don't even know what you're arguing about.
Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 10-23-2022 at 05:44 PM.
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Here ya go. This is pretty accurate. It notes the black folk influence with blues and gospel, but ragtime was also part of the equation. - Most of this was black. Part of the origins of ragtime were white tho - classical marches.
Ragtime - Wikipedia
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Listen to the library of congress recordings by Jelly Roll Morton made in 1938. You can hear the history of the music and he also tells the story of it. He plays in the style of ragtime/stride also boogie blues and early jazz. He came up in the 1900s with ragtime. This got moved to full band with Dixieland in the 1910s, and jazz became more or less fully formed in the 1920s.
Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 10-23-2022 at 08:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I’m also presuming the artists below aren’t meant to represent the sub genres above because they don’t line up. Unless we are to assume Dexter Gordon is a funk musician and that Wynton Kelly was a practitioner of free jazz haha. I assume it's more of a rough chronology.
Anyway given those two things I don’t have too many issues with the broad outline here. Ragtime was an influence on but clearly separate from early or classic era jazz. We know from Joplin’s own negative feelings about the way music was going (he died in 1917) he probably wouldn't have been much of a jazz guy. He wanted to write operas.
Twenty years later it would be the turn of the New Orleans jazz fans hating on swing music. And then swing guys hating on bebop…. And so on, until we come to JGO haha
With modern ears, there's obviously not as much to discern between Joplin and Jelly Roll and James P Johnson unless you listen to lots of that stuff when compared to, say, Brad Mehldau or something. So lumping in ragtime with early jazz as a lot of people do, even jazzers, is understandable. Anyway, Ethan Iverson is a good guy on all this stuff, he's a bit of an early jazz piano nerd. And then of course you have Dick Hyman.
Early jazz rep tends to lean on the march repertoire and form its true, often so called society (ragtime) marches like At a Georgia Camp Meeting or High Society, the clarinet solo of which Bird often quoted.
(This solo predates Bechet btw.)
In which case this is ragtime repertoire played with a jazz feeling and jazz embellishments.
maybe that’s what you had in mindLast edited by Christian Miller; 10-23-2022 at 07:20 PM.
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Anyway, this video is great, you probably know it
He seems to be basically saying that Jelly Roll took a load of stuff including ragtime and mixed it up which is what you said I think about that Jelly Roll recording (I haven't listened to it yet). The key difference to my ears seems to be the way he feels the Morton compared to the Joplin - it swings. Joplin is syncopated, but straight. Which is why classical guys can play it, of course.
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Yes, I agree with the points you made. Some more music around the origins.
The first band labeled jazz, playing a rag in 1917.
You can hear how gospel at the time had a framework like jazz. Just no improv and aggressive melody. Ragtime provided the advanced melody. Then it leaped to dixieland, and dixieland evolved into jazz. The 1st tune on here was recorded in 1910 and 2 others in 1906 and 1909.
Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 10-25-2022 at 12:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
I read "Kansas City Lightning" recently about early Charlie Parker. The gist of one section was the idea that white musicians were ripping off black music in the 30s and 40s. So the early bebopers decided to make music so hard the white players couldn't rip it off. I hope that is true, I like that competition just drove them all to be the best. Not to get too romantic or sentimental, but it sure seems like a magical time where musicians had access to eachother. Now forums like this are as close as a lot of us get to other players.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Originally Posted by AaronMColeman
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Originally Posted by James W
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Dizzy, Tadd, Mary Lou and … Jack Teagarden (1947)
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Truth is, you can’t even mention the word Jazz without discussing race. That’s like discussing mathematics without discussing Einstein.
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I know. Like Christian said, it's very simplistic. I just used it to illustrate the point about ragtime. Your post is true about the competition and subjugation.
Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
That’s of course true but I think it is a mistake to look at the world only as only black and white [sic]. It is not that easy. Charlie Christian, one of the forerunners of bebop (who learned from Mary Lou as well BTW), played in one of the first famous mixed bands with Bennie Goodmann (who did not like Charlie’s fancy clothes at first but could not resist his playing).
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Originally Posted by James W
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Charlie Parker: I’m an Artist, not an entertainer.
So much for bebop killing off the dance music of the day.
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
I am not shure if Goodman ever toured with the mixed small ensemble.
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Just imagine Trane playing Kamasi Washington’s Truth.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Today, there are no bands that exist where a young player can get some experience to better himself. And all of the clubs are gone. Where do you gain the experience as a young musician?
- Dizzy Gillespie, 1985
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