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Yet Bird language conforms to CST all the time. Why is that?
Originally Posted by m_d
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09-29-2022 01:44 PM
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How does BH not teach CST lol? All he teaches is theory. It isn't basic mix over a 7 chord, but it is still relationships about what to play over what chords. So you guys just flat out lie now? And you don't have an agenda.. Originally Posted by m_d
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CST - associating chords and scales - is not prominent in jazz? So you're just flat out lying now? And trying to corrupt the most basic truths about jazz? All good jazz associates chords and scales as an essential part of building the language. So according to you, it's here are the 12 tones, here is the idiom, now go? What dimension are we in? Originally Posted by m_d
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CST - associating scales and devices to different chords in the progression, to not have either a modal or 12 tone wank fest - is essential in jazz lol. So what, you're just flat out lying now? BH didn't teach CST? Because he goes beyond step 1 of mix goes over a 7 chord? That's what you're supposed to do. Originally Posted by m_d
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Did he? I mean they discuss technique and the importance of studying the instrument from books. I think you be jumping to conclusions here. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Anyway, if you are curious about the Klose book Desmond references in the interview, it can be found here.
Methode complete de clarinette (Klose, Hyacinthe Eleonore) - IMSLP: Free Sheet Music PDF Download
It is a nineteenth century clarinet method.
As for the other books, I guess we'll never know. But from the context (Desmond asking Bird how he developed your technique?) there's no reason to think they weren't still discussing technique.
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Biddy Fleet Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Were people less able to play before the university programmes ? Not all in the jazz community were favorable, but no one asked for their opinion. People like Alvin Baptiste and Barry Harris went on to teach their own "systems". Once in a while I hear an old recording, pre-university days, say, something by the Count Basie orchestra, like I did today. It's not just that those guys could play, 100% non-CST certified. It's that they were so freaking good, and sometimes you hear a stunning passage or other and wonder how many guys can honestly touch that level today, and how much of jazz is perhaps, a lost art? That's the kind of unsettling questions Christian, I think, is pointing to, as well. And how many guys, fresh out of a university programme that cost a fortune, couldn't show up on a gig? Originally Posted by Reg
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Oh, so everything is CST now, including BH, who clearly disdained that approach. But whatever. Congratulations, you've won the argument. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Of course he didn't. There weren't any jazz books! But he did have a classical teacher in school (details, not remembered, in the Stanley Crouch biography - definitely not a jazz teacher, though). Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Barry Harris used to gleefully tell a story about how he was invited to present a masterclass at Berklee and told the students they were teaching it all wrong.
He did not get invited back haha
here he is on jazz theory
’who did they ask?’
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I had posted this further above. Here it is again. Originally Posted by m_d
Biddy and Bird: The Evolution of Be-Bop
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The stubbornness of the Organ Grinder reminds me of some discussions on religious topics I had with some evangelical christians [sic LOL]. I tried to talk about some theories I had heard about and found interesting, e.g. Jesus having been in India and having had a spiritual education by Indian masters. No way to cut through. The bible is the word of god, what is not in the bible is not true — basta. I then gave up to discuss about how the vatican decided which gospels should be considered authentic long time ago and which not (apocrypha).
So be CST the word of GD — amen, hallelujah and shalom.
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Some of You guys... LOL might have some hangups about different approaches as to playing or learning how to play jazz.
I played jazz gigs long before I was aware of CST types of musical organization. I went to Berklee to learn how to arrange, compose for film etc... ( although I did learn and became a much better player).
If you can play... no one really cares how you got or get there. Its very obvious who can play and who can't, takes about 30 seconds. LOL.
This is one of my hang ups... I show up to work with band, vocalist whatever, I'll be doing it in about a hour... and they can basically only play what they know.... can't read, or ears only work with what they hear.... don't understand terminology, again even if I play sample of feel and harmonic direction... and the worst... stuck in slow motion vanilla.
Disclaimer... It doesn't matter... I'll play what works with the ensemble etc... If they want BH style of chunk chunk with old school voiceleading comping... (I think I'm getting sick...) I'll play it...I don't bitch or say here check this guy or gal out... this is the real shit.
And again I'm just a pretty good player... there are many much better. I don't really even like soloing, I would much rather be comping within the rhythm section.... raising the level of the performance of the music, making sure I get the audience involved. The more you become aware of... the better you'll develop as a player. And again the trick is getting your technical skills together well enough to play in real time at the speed of jazz. I actually like BSing but I'm off to play.
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Never heard him speak before, cheers. I became aware of Richie Hart through his teachings regarding the Tonic / Dominant polarity thing. The guy can play, and teach as well. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Coming from someone who obviously excelled at Berkeley, If what he says about CST doesn't put things in perspective for players wishing to play in Bop based styles, then there's just no helping them.
Sometimes you can be too invested in the wrong path to face the inconvenient reality that you need to back track and start over....
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Sunk costs Originally Posted by princeplanet
Tbf it’s not that info isn’t useful- I use cst all the time. But I don’t use it much for learning bop because that’s not where bop lives.
Presumably that’s what we are talking about on a thread about Parker? Not modern harmony or non functional changes, how Reg likes to comp, how I like to comp or anything else. I dunno, people like to conflate stuff.
it’s more about knowing what it is you want to achieve and going about it in a way that will get you there with the correct tools.
Not everyone wants to learn contemporary or even post modal jazz. OTOH not everyone wants to learn bop (although all the best modern players seem to be at least conversant with it)
a good teacher will get you there whatever theory they teach. Because they’ll all teach transcription, application of vocab etc etc.
i suppose while I find it quite interesting this question of how did Bird learn to play jazz may ultimately only be valuable to historians and most usefully argued about by academics rather than opinionated posters on JGO; but I do think it tells us what’s important and what isn’t and how the music has changed under the influence of social forces.
But otoh, I don’t like being mischaracterised. I guess it’s the internet and I should let it go.Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-01-2022 at 05:37 AM.
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Oh God, horn. You'll be saying 'man' next.And Charlie was of course a heavy shapes player despite being the first guitarist to come not from banjo, but trying to imitate a horn.
Nobody ever explained this to me and many times when I asked the answer was waffling and overly upperly triadic. Finally I decided that CC playing like a horn (man) meant that he played tunes and not chords.
Strange (no doubt that I never met any of the million people saying exactly that. Ah well.)
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You crazy cat Originally Posted by Hugo Gainly
Yeah I mean that’s basically it. That and listening to the tunes Lester Young was playing and imitating those. Tbh I’m not sure how much direct lifting CC did from hor…. sorry I mean saxophone players. Most of it is in the feel and tone for me.
And tbh a lot of music is. Pitch choices can often be really basic and sound hip… sorry I mean stylish and idiomatic. It’s a lesson I leaned over and over from transcribing stuff.
Bottom line is if a player sounds amazing it isn’t because of some special sauce note choices. It’s because they are a great musician. A tried and tested way to become a better musician is it listen to and copy great musicians. There’s so much on those records that can’t be put in a book, time, tone, taste etc, that you will get that way that you would never get from transcriptions or theory books. Notation simply can’t record what makes jazz jazz, useful though it is.
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Yea Christian... I'm reposting your last paragraph ... It can really just be just that simple, LOL.
"Bottom line is if a player sounds amazing it isn’t because of some special sauce note choices. It’s because they are a great musician. A tried and tested way to become a better musician is it listen to and copy great musicians. There’s so much on those records that can’t be put in a book, time, tone, taste etc, that you will get that way that you would never get from transcriptions or theory books. Notation simply can’t record what makes jazz jazz, useful though it is."
And yes this was a thread about CP analyzed etc... But we are not...or never will be like a "CP" It's just not going to happen. We play the guitar. There are straight ahead reasons why most horn players... are lousy compers or accompanist. (not all... just most). Being able to play the chords doesn't make one a good accompanist or even make one understand harmony.
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It’s clear to me that Bird invented CST because he was mad at theory. As it was back then anyway.
Soon after, the Jazz Plumbers (a deep-state clandestine arm of the Department of Culture) took notice: “AhHah… finally we have Jazz Curriculum”. They set out to quietly infiltrate all Music Academies and Universities to create ‘Jazz Studies’. This culminated in the creation of The Berklee School of Music a decade later.
Unfortunately, like most government strategery, they were unable to predict all the outcomes of their machinations. The unforeseen result is a steady out-pouring of thousands of graduates each year who play by a kind of Artificial Intelligence, and the unfortunate demise of Be-Bop as played by Bird.
Interestingly, these are the very same players denigrated by some folks here, while simultaneously espousing jazz schooling as the true path.
This is all in fun of course. You need everything you can get. I wish I was able to attend Berklee in the early 70’s just to be able to meet all those great players, including Reg!
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I say "horn", I say "man", I say "vibe", I say "cool" and I say "cat". Originally Posted by Hugo Gainly
So I'd just like to say I'm sorry....
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Hepcats don’t need to apologise to squares, man.
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Solid gone Originally Posted by ChazFromCali
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Well, let's face it, you could do worse than to follow this example. Sure, you can select your own phrases from the Omnibook and group them under chords , but that's gonna take a week.. Originally Posted by ChazFromCali
And peeps will scoff at the assembly line / mix+match approach - and I'd never do this myself - but i bet a year of doing that will be get you playing better lines than just aimlessly applying CST to progressions (yeah, people do that). I agree with others that CST is great for modern ideas, or for advanced players looking to manage their pitch collections, but if ya wanna Bop yer baloney, then copping da Bird in small bite sized chunks is probably not gonna be a complete waste of time (just don't overdo it kids
)...
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Sometimes I think that most of jazz education materials out there are this thing when one person does all the hard work you should be doing and then you buy the book they wrote after they’ve done all that work hoping that it will have the same effect.
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