The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Posts 26 to 50 of 57
  1. #26

    User Info Menu

    thanks for the replies. makes me feel better that i'm not the only one. so i guess i'll just keep going with mickey's program and eventually i'll either get used to the sound of the D13b5b9 or i can eventually use some other chords with the same function that come later in the program that i like the sound of more.

    the book from the library is called:

    Die Jazzmethode fuer Gitarre Bd. 1 by Rolf Toennes

    but it's only available in german. It doesn't have nearly as much material as the Baker book, but it has some nice voicings for ii V I with root on the fifth and sixth string and has you comping (in a very simple manner) to some standards (like autumn leaves) within a few weeks of study and was a very satisfying start into jazz guitar for me.

    -- ocnote

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

    User Info Menu

    I just happen to have Mickey Baker's book by me when reading the thread. Mickey's right of course, the problem is that he does not spell out the notes and he never marks the fret numbers, so it's easy to misread the position of some of his chord shapes!

  4. #28

    User Info Menu

    On this chord you all the notes that make up the A13b9 except the root A which is implied. Bb on 6th string is b9. G on 4th string is b7. C# is 3rd. F# is the 13th. In context of chord progressions in lesson this is correct.

  5. #29

    User Info Menu

    I haven't seen this thread before, strangely. Is the OP still around?

    Mickey Baker books nearly always have these strange chords that confuse people. This one is actually well known. There's a Joe Pass video somewhere that deals with this. Also, this is a very much-used shape in bossa playing because it slides so neatly from one chord to another.

    I think you'll find this is the page. Chord 9 is the one.

    Mickey Baker book wrong chord?-a13b92-jpg


    What you call it depends on the context. The name is actually fairly irrelevant, what matters is the sound combined with other chords. So take it all with a pinch of salt. Don't let anyone say it is THIS and no argument because it's not, it's what you make of it.

    So if Mickey wants it to be a 13b9 so be it. Joe Pass said it was a diminished chord... and so on :-)

  6. #30

    User Info Menu

    Incidentally, I shouldn't think Mickey Baker was using this chord in a bossa setting but, fwiw, here's the beginning of Corcovado. The odd chord (4x345x) is the second one along:

    Am6 - ? - Gm7/F#7b5 - FM7/F6

    There are lots of ways to play over it. Here are a few but only one of them is a diminished line.


  7. #31

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by SHR
    I just happen to have Mickey Baker's book by me when reading the thread. Mickey's right of course, the problem is that he does not spell out the notes and he never marks the fret numbers, so it's easy to misread the position of some of his chord shapes!
    Exactly.
    There was someone who "fixed" all that, unfortunately I've lost the link to it.

    I can understand the reasoning, I think.... back in the day jazzmen were men and didn't need sissy chord fret markers, they used their ears. Or something like that.

  8. #32

    User Info Menu

    He provided two names for No. 8,
    didn't add the Bbdimb6 for No. 9?

    Looks like chord No. 13 is wrong,
    labeled as D11, but that is Dm11.

  9. #33

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Looks like chord No. 13 is wrong,
    labeled as D11, but that is Dm11.
    What about No. 13?

  10. #34

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    He provided two names for No. 8,
    didn't add the Bbdimb6 for No. 9?

    Looks like chord No. 13 is wrong,
    labeled as D11, but that is Dm11.
    remember this is an intro to jazz guitar..Bbdimb6 ??..they will be running out the door..

    #9 is correct 13b9..move the bass note Bb to the high e string for a more familiar chord shape

    D11/Dm11..could be called a sus4 type chord..again- basic chord names first..no3rd..so fielders choice..context rules .. its his book

    note that these #8 - 21 are basically Im7 ii7 V7 and Im7 or vim9 II7 V7 I V7 in G

    then he changes to C major with the same changes to get a new position under your fingers and in your ear

  11. #35

    User Info Menu

    The number of each of the 33 chord grips in the MB book is the encircled number printed above it.
    MB left a lot of grenades in this book...

    Grip No.13:
    Frets: 5 x 5 5 3 x
    Notes: A x G C D x

    If you call the root as being the A on the 6th string fifth fret, then the intervals are 1 x 7b 3b 11 x, and it becomes Am11.
    If you call the root as being the missing D on the 5th string fifth fret, then the intervals are 5 (1) 4 7b 8 x and it becomes D11 or D7sus4.

    This grip is a multi-purpose grip used as either an Am11 or D11.
    I use it as a iim711 in G or a V711 in G. I've even used it as a G911 in G.
    In fact this one grip is all you really need...

    Thank you for reviving this unique zombie.
    It's been very entertaining.
    MB must be rolling over...

    Costello: So... Who's on first...
    Abbott: I Don't Know!
    Costello: No! Who...
    Abbott: What...?
    Costello: No! What's on second... Who's on first, and I Don't Know's on third!

    ::
    Last edited by StringNavigator; 02-08-2023 at 11:40 PM.

  12. #36

    User Info Menu

    The root for the D13-5-9 is on the A string/fifth fret. (Omitted to allow the 9b.)
    This rootless grip is a Drop 2-4, hence the skipped D string.

    Frets: 4 6 x 5 7 7
    Intervals: 5b 9b x 7b 3 13

    It's the V7 in the key of G.
    It won't sound the same if it's played from the D on the E string... unless you want a D7+9.
    That would make it into D A x F# C F or D7+9. Good, but not the same.
    But it worked well for Stevie Ray Vaughan!

    Full of grenades... BOOM!
    Trust the book, not your reading skills.

    The D13-5-9 resolves to the GM7 as a great sounding finale. Both are Drop2-4 chords.
    The pinky holds the B and E string, while the index, middle and ring fingers drop a semitone.
    Like MB saying bye-bye!

    ::
    Last edited by StringNavigator; 02-09-2023 at 12:14 AM.

  13. #37

    User Info Menu

    If we're talking about this chord...

    Mickey Baker book wrong chord?-d-jpg

    ... it's not a 'wrong chord'. It's a perfectly good Ab7#9, which is pretty obvious. What's odd about it is the name. But books make mistakes so don't worry about it

    Mickey (or the publisher/editor) is assuming it must be a D7 chord because it comes between Am7 and GM7 but, to my mind, that's a false assumption. It might pass theoretically but it's not right. Because a chord is subbed with its tritone doesn't make the tritone chord a different version of the original.

    If a progression is originally Dm7 - G7 - CM7 and the G7 is replaced with a Db7b5 it doesn't mean that particular voicing is some kind of weird G7 chord, it's a direct replacement according to established reharmonisation practice. In other words it's a Db7 and nothing else.

    That may be wrong according to some but personally I'm fairly happy about it!

  14. #38

    User Info Menu

    As I said... Who's on first...?

    D13-5-9 is Chord No.6 in my copy.

    The root for the D13-5-9 is on the A string, but it's not played.
    The D is on the A string, un-played.
    The intervals are 5b 9b x 7b 3 13.

    It resolves well to the tough stretch GM7 (MB Chord No.7).

    MB Chords Nos.1-14 were all voiced to work in the key of G Major.

    The chords are not wrong at all. There is no error.
    MB Chords No.6 and No.13 are correctly named in the book.
    One must look carefully and determine where the root is located.
    Else... BOOM!

    ::
    Last edited by StringNavigator; 02-09-2023 at 12:24 AM.

  15. #39

    User Info Menu

    I see, No. 13 is A G C D, could be
    C6/9 Dm11 D7sus4 D9sus4 F6/9
    G9sus4 Am11 C6/9/E or C6/9/G.

  16. #40

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by StringNavigator
    determine where the root is located.
    Which is just what you're not actually doing. The root is plainly Ab but you're insisting it's a D although it's not there at all. Presumably because the label says it's a D chord.

    In fact, the note on the A string is an Eb. If they were going to include a D, that's where it should have gone, but it's not there... because it's an Ab chord.

    It's not a D7 chord, it's an Ab7#9 chord, the tritone sub for D7. It's a well-known substitution trick, it's been around for ages. Only a pedantic theorist would insist it's a D7 chord because it ticks some theory box.

    Like I keep saying, we don't know whether it was Mickey Baker himself who called it that name or the publisher. I doubt if it was Mickey Baker. Half these 'pros' don't know what they're playing; they just play it, and some editor fills it in later.

    I saw a Joe Pass video once when he played

    x2323x

    and dithered around not sure what it was called. I think he got there eventually but it was close :-)

  17. #41

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I see, No. 13 is A G C D, could be
    C6/9 Dm11 D7sus4 D9sus4 F6/9
    G9sus4 Am11 C6/9/E or C6/9/G.
    pauln..

    The circled number is (below) for the chord..this is not the format in the MB book- the circled number is Above the chord-

    see ragman1 post #38...
    Last edited by wolflen; 02-11-2023 at 03:16 PM.

  18. #42

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    pauln..

    The circled number is (below) for the chord..this is not the format in the MB book- the circled number is Above the chord-

    see ragman1 post #38...
    I see, No. 20 is A G C D, could be
    C6/9 Dm11 D7sus4 D9sus4 F6/9
    G9sus4 Am11 C6/9/E or C6/9/G.

  19. #43

    User Info Menu

    Trouble is, I might be wrong. Using these three chords:

    Mickey Baker book wrong chord?-x-jpg


    (12) is NOT a Gm6 if the top note is G on the 3rd fret, it's an Em7.

    (13) is NOT a D11, it's a Dm11 if the bottom note is on the 10th fret. Otherwise, as written, it's an Am11.

    (14) is NOT a D7b5 unless the bottom note is on the 10th fret. Otherwise, as written, it's an Ab7b5.

    There are no fret positions, no o's for open strings, and no x's for muted strings.

    In other words, gents, this book is a completely untrustworthy, inaccurate load of doo-doo and should be ceremoniously, or is it unceremoniously, burnt in the village square.

    And I'm sorry I had anything to do with it.

  20. #44

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Trouble is, I might be wrong. Using these three chords:

    Mickey Baker book wrong chord?-x-jpg


    (12) is NOT a Gm6 if the top note is G on the 3rd fret, it's an Em7.

    (13) is NOT a D11, it's a Dm11 if the bottom note is on the 10th fret. Otherwise, as written, it's an Am11.

    (14) is NOT a D7b5 unless the bottom note is on the 10th fret. Otherwise, as written, it's an Ab7b5.

    There are no fret positions, no o's for open strings, and no x's for muted strings.

    In other words, gents, this book is a completely untrustworthy, inaccurate load of doo-doo and should be ceremoniously, or is it unceremoniously, burnt in the village square.

    And I'm sorry I had anything to do with it.
    I think the theory so far is that:
    - the chart's circled number labels reference the chord chart above the number
    - the chord names reference the chord chart below the chord name
    - the chords are movable and meant to sound only the strings fingered
    - the top horizontal line of the chord chart indicates the nut
    - these chords in the pasted image in this thread are the same chords from the book but are labeled differently whereby the representation in the book reverses the reference orientation of the labeling of the circled numbers in the pasted image so that they refer to the chord chart above the circled number (and refer to the chord name above the chord chart)
    - the book is never wrong but sometimes misunderstood

  21. #45

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I think the theory so far is that:
    - the chart's circled number labels reference the chord chart above the number
    - the chord names reference the chord chart below the chord name
    - the chords are movable and meant to sound only the strings fingered
    - the top horizontal line of the chord chart indicates the nut
    - these chords in the pasted image in this thread are the same chords from the book but are labeled differently whereby the representation in the book reverses the reference orientation of the labeling of the circled numbers in the pasted image so that they refer to the chord chart above the circled number (and refer to the chord name above the chord chart)
    - the book is never wrong but sometimes misunderstood
    LOL.

    The top line's the nut? Fine. That makes each diagram 12 frets long. Good enough.

    And change 12, 13 and 14 to 19, 20 and 21. No prob there.

    So, as written:

    Mickey Baker book wrong chord?-z-jpg

    19 is written as Gma6 (which is wrong anyway, should be Gmaj6 or G6) and passes as a G6/E inversion. Otherwise Em7.

    20 is an Am11, not a D11. D11 is a dominant chord and its notes are not A G C D.

    21 is an Ab7b5, not a D7b5, even though they share the same notes. Whoever did this, like that ridiculous D13b5b9, is confusing their roots.

    Still no x's for muted strings.

    Am11 - Ab7b5 is a very effective, recognised move usually ending on some kind of G major chord, like GM7 or G69 (but not the G6 illustrated because the obvious bass G root is missing).

    But labelling them D chords is nonsense. That's why I'm happy to believe Mickey Baker may have played them and their names were put in later by some other person who didn't really know what they were doing.

    the book is never wrong
    This book is extremely wrong, especially as a beginner's tutor. And the fact that this thread exists at all and we're having a big argument about it only proves the point!

  22. #46

    User Info Menu

    Jeppelavsen -

    I don't know if you're still around. Somehow I doubt it. Your last post here was in 2011 and you last posted on other threads in 2020.

    But my honest answer to your question is neither book. Jody Fisher's stuff is complex and advanced and not for beginners. You could try it but you may well find it too much for you.

    As for the other one, I had a friend once, a good player. In his circles they used to call it 'the Mickey Baker Fun Book' with some derision. It's rather simplistic and formulaic. It's all right at a certain level and in its own way but beyond that...

    I had both books at one point (Jody Fisher had many books out) and I wouldn't recommend either for a beginner. My advice would be go to a good music store and see what you can find, something that resonates with you, something you feel happy with. There's only so much you can get from a book anyway. These days you can probably do better online.

    So good luck :-)

  23. #47

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I saw a Joe Pass video once when he played
    x2323x
    and dithered around not sure what it was called. I think he got there eventually but it was close :-)
    Rootless G9 First Inversion or Bm7-5 or Dm6.

    ::

  24. #48

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Trouble is, I might be wrong. Using these three chords:
    Mickey Baker book wrong chord?-x-jpg
    (12) is NOT a Gm6 if the top note is G on the 3rd fret, it's an Em7.
    (13) is NOT a D11, it's a Dm11 if the bottom note is on the 10th fret. Otherwise, as written, it's an Am11.
    (14) is NOT a D7b5 unless the bottom note is on the 10th fret. Otherwise, as written, it's an Ab7b5.
    There are no fret positions, no o's for open strings, and no x's for muted strings.
    In other words, gents, this book is a completely untrustworthy, inaccurate load of doo-doo and should be ceremoniously, or is it unceremoniously, burnt in the village square.
    And I'm sorry I had anything to do with it.
    In my copy of MB's book, there are no fret numbers printed and there are only six frets to each grid.
    You simply count the shown frets from the nut, which is the topmost darkest horizontal line.
    The grids printed in this thread here are most likely from someone's personal database and not from MB's book.

    Grip No.12 is a GM6 or Em7, depending on how you call the inversion. They are interchangeable.
    Grip No.13 is a rootless D11 from the root on the A string Fret 5 as illustrated.

    Grip No.14 is a D7-5 from the root on the A string Fret 5 or an Ab7-5 from the root on the E string Fret 4.
    D7-5 and Ab7-5 are chord synonyms. They are interchangeable.

    Happy Chording...!

    PS: Mickey Baker's Method Volume 1 & 2 are Top Of The Line books.
    I use it with three others, BEER.

    Baker, (Clifford Essex Pubs)
    Eastlee, (REH)
    Edison Volume 1 & 2, (Alfred)
    Rector, (Mel Bay)

    Grab a cold one and relax...

    ::



    .
    Last edited by StringNavigator; 02-12-2023 at 10:23 PM.

  25. #49

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    LOL.
    Still no x's for muted strings.
    Am11 - Ab7b5 is a very effective, recognised move usually ending on some kind of G major chord, like GM7 or G69 (but not the G6 illustrated because the obvious bass G root is missing).
    This book is extremely wrong, especially as a beginner's tutor. And the fact that this thread exists at all and we're having a big argument about it only proves the point!
    In his book, MB states that ma means major...

    Also, above each chord grip. MB has printed the fingering. Those strings with no fingering printed are not meant to be played. It's self explanatory if you read the book. Do you have a copy...?

    MB's book is written for two keys, C and G Major. The reader is expected to transpose the grips and changes to other keys.

    MB does not use the Am11 - Ab7-5 - GM7 progression anywhere. Personally, I use it, but then, what book is big enough to stipulate every possible progression.

    MB also states in his intro that if the reader has an elementary knowledge of their instrument, they can use this book with profit.

    I'm not arguing...
    I'm merely stating what's written in my copy of MB's book.
    Get the book and see... Get A Grip!

    ::

  26. #50

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jeppelavsen
    Hello everyone! I was just starting on Mickey Bakers first book, when i noticed something odd. chord number 9 on page two. How can that be a A13b9?

    It shows the notes: A-F#-C-F
    it doesnt have either a major 3rd or any kind of seventh? It rather looks like and am6/b5 or something..

    Is the book wrong?
    I guess it's been ststed before but I make it
    an Ab13b9 with b9 in the bass.
    Same as first chord in Stomping at the Savoy (in Db).
    And a D7#9 no root. And a diminished with a borrowed note etc etc