The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I know back in the day, before electricity and amps, the big-assed archtops many of us love were used in big band rhythm sections. I just don't get how it worked. I've seen James Chirillo's video here where he talks about appropriate volume levels, projection, etc.
    I play with a big band (and only 2 or 3 in each section), and I'd love to leave the amp home, but I can't imagine even hearing myself without it. I have a couple of L-5 size archtops, but they're laminate topped, nowhere near loud enough. My Martin D35 is much louder, but I doubt it could cut it either.

    So how does it work? (I know, Charlie Christian came along...)

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by JGinNJ
    I know back in the day, before electricity and amps, the big-assed archtops many of us love were used in big band rhythm sections. I just don't get how it worked. I've seen James Chirillo's video here where he talks about appropriate volume levels, projection, etc.
    I play with a big band (and only 2 or 3 in each section), and I'd love to leave the amp home, but I can't imagine even hearing myself without it. I have a couple of L-5 size archtops, but they're laminate topped, nowhere near loud enough. My Martin D35 is much louder, but I doubt it could cut it either.

    So how does it work? (I know, Charlie Christian came along...)
    I would check out Jonathon Stout's blog for more info, but as I understand it there's a combination of factors:

    1) big bands today are LOUD - in the old days they played to the level of the rhythm section
    2) drums used to have hide heads, which are quieter
    3) the modern ride cymbal wasn't an option until the early 40s (I think?), so made it easier for the guitar to cut though. Earlier drum styles focussed on bass drum, snare and hi hat
    4) archtops cut in a specific register. They may not seem as loud as a Martin dreadnought, but they cut in a specific place in the mix

  4. #3

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    Note that James Chirillo's acoustic archtop is NOT a Gibson, or a Stromberg. It's a custom guitar built by an Italian American named Greco (not the Japanese brand).

    I've said several times before: Chirillo's guitar is very loud in person. No amp, no pup, nothing.

    But I find it curious that he had an acoustic archtop custom made, as he plays a vintage Artist Award when he plays electric (he also plays a Gibby)

    I wonder if he had the guitar voiced in a more "modern build" to accommodate for dynamic disparities

    Wynton Marsalis is all about the "authenticity" in his big bands... but the drummer's set looks more modern than the old giants of yesteryear (those kits were huge!)

    I could try to reach out to James... haven't spoken to him in years... Ask Stout as well, I'm sure he'd be happy to help.

  5. #4

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    Also, when electric instruments came in, just about everybody switched to them.

    FG and a few others, like Steve Jordan, were the hold-outs. My guess is they switched because they wanted more volume. Prior to that, there was a volume-race among the archtop makers, culminating, reportedly, in the biggest, loudest, Strombergs.

    I found some old film of the Basie band where there seems to be a mic near the guitar (and bass).

    My guess is they struggled with the volume issue.

  6. #5

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    I play with one drummer who uses period equipment and it just works.

  7. #6

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    He’s almost never on the cymbals.

    Also guitar in swing big band equals rhythm, not solos. No one wants to hear you in the shout chorus. You are what’s there when the smoke clears, making sure the drummer doesn’t rush.

  8. #7

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    I'd argue it's not even about you hearing yourself, most of the time!

    Simple fact is, few guys know how to play to show for a true acoustic rhythm guitar. So either find musicians who do, or amplify.

    You might just take a look at something like a Loar 600 though...itll blow your Martin away.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Also guitar in swing big band equals rhythm, not solos. No one wants to hear you in the shout chorus. You are what’s there when the smoke clears, making sure the drummer doesn’t rush.
    There's a story that when Freddie Green got an amp for gigs with the Basie band, other members hid it. The sense was that Freddie was not meant to be heard by the audience but felt by the rest of the band. (And for this person, SEEING him---his arm moving---might serve so set and keep the time even if now and then you couldn't actually hear his guitar.)

  10. #9

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    I agree that most modern bands are much louder than they used to be. But unamplified guitarists (or at least Freddie Green) set their action very high to get more volume out of the instrument.
    Last edited by KirkP; 07-19-2019 at 11:36 PM.

  11. #10

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    IMO, if you're playing rhythm in a big band and the audience can hear you clearly, you're doing it wrong. A guitar in a big band is for rhythm, not for volume. Check big band recordings from the '30s and early '40s. You don't heard a guitar at all on most tunes. But it's in there, filling out the sound of the band just enough.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    IMO, if you're playing rhythm in a big band and the audience can hear you clearly, you're doing it wrong. A guitar in a big band is for rhythm, not for volume. Check big band recordings from the '30s and early '40s. You don't heard a guitar at all on most tunes. But it's in there, filling out the sound of the band just enough.
    Years ago, I recall hearing a story about an argument between a band leader and a guitarist.

    Leader: we can't hear the guitar.

    Guitarist: you're not supposed to hear it, you're supposed to feel it.

  13. #12

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    But Count Basie would say, 'If you can't hear Freddie Green, you are too loud.

  14. #13

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    You don't need to plug in. Into the amp, that's it. But you do need a mic in a proximity. Just check all the videos of modern big bands, even those who go after the trad thing. Everyone has a mic on stage.

  15. #14

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    Yeah I don’t think it was ever a satisfactory thing, they made it work.

    Also they had band shells on stage, and risers to help with projection and acoustics.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    There's a story that when Freddie Green got an amp for gigs with the Basie band, other members hid it. The sense was that Freddie was not meant to be heard by the audience but felt by the rest of the band. (And for this person, SEEING him---his arm moving---might serve so set and keep the time even if now and then you couldn't actually hear his guitar.)
    The story I heard was that Basie was pushing Freddy Green to get an amp because 'All the cats have one', Freddy Green resisted until Basie finally got him one as a 'salary advance'. Freddy compromised by having it on stage plugged it but not turned on, Basie left him alone after that. He held out as long as he could.

  17. #16

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    Hey if anyone wants to know what the drum kits and drumming styles of the era were like, this channel has great stuff on it.







    Bass playing was different too.....

    If your drummers references for big band swing is Buddy Rich, you are going to have problems lol

  18. #17

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    christianm77,

    Very good !

  19. #18

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    I got to see the Basie band in the mid 70's. There was a mike in front of Freddy but not very close.

  20. #19

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    Most Big Bands didnt have loud drumers like Buddy Rich or Gene Krupa and Many of the horn sections would play with the horns facing down ward towards the floor or muted. The guitar was not suposed to be as loud as the other instruments. Before the guitar was used in the big bands they used a Banjo.

  21. #20

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    I was a trombone player through college, played in the jazz bands.

    Fascinating watching the relationship of the sections.

    Saxes HAD to be out front because the trumps were too loud otherwise. And loved to stand as much as possible knowing (and enjoying) their bodies were sort of muting the trumps.

    Trumps knew THEY were the proper lead sound, didn't like band leader telling them to point at floor and quiet down. Sullen trump players crack up bonists, btw.

    And bonists ... we wuz there just trying to help the team. Taking it one day at a time, hoping that one of the charts would actually feature the section or at least have something interesting to play somewhere in it.

    And knew, of course, that the saxes and trumps didn't take us seriously at all. Actually speak up about anything, it would get quiet and both the two Superior Groups would turn and ... look at you ... why are you interrupting?... writ all over their faces.

    Sigh.

    Bonists never get no respect.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

  22. #21

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    Respect this...

    Andrei Murchinson with Abdullah Ibrahim,


  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by rNeil
    .

    Sigh.

    Bonists never get no respect.
    Your own fault for playing an instrument that changes shape as you play it . Ain't nobody got time for that .

    Guitar in a big band is more like a percussion instrument , like maracas in cuban music .

    Listen to this , the guitar is not clearly audible but is a rhythmic presence , almost subliminal


  24. #23

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    It is too bad todays big bands don't play more like Basie. The dynamics are one of the things that made the Basie band so great. Dynamics are marked on the charts but no one seems to be able to read them. It seems like there are two modes Loud and LOUDER.

    I would like to play un-miked but I would be really lost in the mix. A small clip-on mike and a LoudBox Mini gives me just enough to be present in the mix. Just the right volume and sound.

    Here is my favorite example from a few years ago.


  25. #24

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    Unamplified acoustic bass with gut strings, acoustic piano, smaller drums and cymbals, no steel strings, no mylar heads, more attentive audiences who understood when to be quiet, even when dancing.

    At a recent BB rehearsal our singer forgot to bring her mic. She sang unamplified, we all played much quieter and the sound was fantastic, with a real 40s vibe. Unfortunately the following week she remembered her mic.

  26. #25

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    JGO, where guitarists tell everyone ELSE to turn down.