The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Yes, the guitar can be heard very well there. It would be interesting to hear a recording from the audience. As to "seen but not heard", when you're the leader of the band you can play as loud as you want. When you're not, you have to compromise. I've never been a bandleader, and never will be. I just enjoy playing.

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  3. #77

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    When you're the leader you can be Brian Setzer and make the big band accompany you, not the other way around. That's actually is exciting as it gets for me, as far as the guitar in big band is concerned.

    The traditiinal approach is fascinating, but I feel that worrying about getting things exactly right like its 1930's could be too frustrating. Maybe Im wrong.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    When you're the leader you can be Brian Setzer and make the big band accompany you, not the other way around. That's actually is exciting as it gets for me, as far as the guitar in big band is concerned.

    The traditiinal approach is fascinating, but I feel that worrying about getting things exactly right like its 1930's could be too frustrating. Maybe Im wrong.
    You are not wrong.

    Play what you need to play, Amplify what you need to amplify, Good music is good music no matter how it is done. I think it was Duke Ellington that said "If it sounds good it is good".

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBGuitar
    You are not wrong.

    Play what you need to play, Amplify what you need to amplify, Good music is good music no matter how it is done. I think it was Duke Ellington that said "If it sounds good it is good".
    My life turned out that way that the most experience playing guitar in big band I have is one semester in college. I also only had two guitars at the time- SG and a strat. What do I bring to the big band class, hmm... It was more modern type big band anyway, no one cared.

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    When you're the leader you can be Brian Setzer and make the big band accompany you, not the other way around. That's actually is exciting as it gets for me, as far as the guitar in big band is concerned.

    The traditiinal approach is fascinating, but I feel that worrying about getting things exactly right like its 1930's could be too frustrating. Maybe Im wrong.
    I think you have live and breathe this stuff to be bothered with it really.

    Ultimately I’m more interested in the present day.

  7. #81

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    I don't know how this went from a suggestion that "felt and not heard" for big band rhythm guitar is a myth to bringing up someone like Brian Setzer playing rockabilly guitar all over a big band. Huh?

    And even though I think this might devolve discussion, "Good music is good music no matter how it is done."?
    No. Good music is good music precisely because of how it's done.

    I think the bigger problem with big band rhythm guitar is that it's rhythmic function, historically, is actually at cross purposes with the dominant rhythmic emphasis in a modern (i.e. post 1945) rhythm section. The thumpy, even chunk-chunk-chunk-chunk with NO backbeat seems to fight the normal legato style of walking (often a little behind, with some 8th notes thrown in), and a drummer playing ride cymbal, chicking hi hat on 2+4, with an inaudible bass drum pulse, if there is one at all.

    Duke dropped rhythm guitar in the late 40's when Fred Guy left, and hell, even Basie tried dropping guitar for a hot minute. If you don't know the story, Basie had disbanded his Orchestra in the early 50's, but started a 3 horn band sextet with no guitar - i.e. no Freddie Green. A week later, Basie arrived to the gig and Freddie Green was there unpacking his guitar. Basie said something like, "oh, are you on this gig, Pep?" (a nickname owing to his "salt and pepper" hair). Freddie just said something like, "well you workin' ain't you?". Although there were still diehards like Freddie, the rhythm of jazz evolved away from the rhythm that swing rhythm guitar provides.

    Acoustic 4-beat rhythm guitar in a modern big band is like the appendix in the human body. No one is precisely sure what purpose it serves, and you never really know that it's there until something goes horribly wrong, and then it can ruin everything.

  8. #82

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    If it sounds good, it is good

  9. #83

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    I had a rehearsal last night, trying out more of the suggestions here. When the music allowed (What a Wonderful world, A Kiss to Build a Dream On), I dialed back the volume on my guitar so it was close to half acoustic, half amp. I had the amp on my left sitting on a chair, tried to keep the guitar away from my body, pointed up at a 45. Other tunes called for more volume, like a blues with guitar fills & solo.
    As I mentioned originally, we're not a big group- 8 pieces last night, no piano. Even still, we're not trying to do the period swing thing, so there's both room and the need for me to play well-amplified. A friend in the trumpet section, who also plays guitar, told me it sounds great, that I'm really filling things out. I guess the lesson is I have to go with what works, since I'm not in the Basie band!

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by JGinNJ
    As I mentioned originally, we're not a big group- 8 pieces last night, no piano.
    My last big band had an excellent pianist, but I appreciated the rare occasions when he couldn’t make it to rehearsal. The guitarist can play so much more freely without another chordal instrument. Occasionally he’d switch to organ, which was nice too since it’s not percussive.

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by campusfive
    I don't know how this went from a suggestion that "felt and not heard" for big band rhythm guitar is a myth to bringing up someone like Brian Setzer playing rockabilly guitar all over a big band. Huh?

    And even though I think this might devolve discussion, "Good music is good music no matter how it is done."?
    No. Good music is good music precisely because of how it's done.

    I think the bigger problem with big band rhythm guitar is that it's rhythmic function, historically, is actually at cross purposes with the dominant rhythmic emphasis in a modern (i.e. post 1945) rhythm section. The thumpy, even chunk-chunk-chunk-chunk with NO backbeat seems to fight the normal legato style of walking (often a little behind, with some 8th notes thrown in), and a drummer playing ride cymbal, chicking hi hat on 2+4, with an inaudible bass drum pulse, if there is one at all.
    This is without question the biggest problem I have come across. You really need to know drummers and bass players who are up for digging into the historical styles. (Although I would question the assertion that good modern jazz bass players play behind the beat..... But I know what you mean.)

    If that's your MISSION, your raison d'etre, then you are willing to do whatever is necessary to get the sound, find the players and book the gigs, train up the players were necessary.

    However, I've come across so many band leaders, usually horn players, even some well known leaders of swing dance bands that actually like the more modern style ride cymbal led drumming often with a backbeat ('50s Dixieland style.)

    This is frustrating from the point of view of trying to get it right, but in the end I have decided that what I do no want to do is go down the path of leading my own band in this area. I don't dance for instance, and I think you really have to.

    I still play swing and gypsy style guitar, but my approach to it is highly post modern (and working in small groups). I think that's where the fun is to be had for me. I'm lucky to work with a highly creative and attentive drummer who may not play in period style but is interested in finding ways of making it work with a rhythm guitar.

    I have a lot of respect for people who do it properly though such as yourself. The main bands in London for that are Echoes of Ellington and Back to Basie - which are run by the same band leader who insists on period accurate performance that's completely acoustic. And if anyone calls me to play acoustic rhythm in a period style band I'll be there with bells on.

    Duke dropped rhythm guitar in the late 40's when Fred Guy left, and hell, even Basie tried dropping guitar for a hot minute. If you don't know the story, Basie had disbanded his Orchestra in the early 50's, but started a 3 horn band sextet with no guitar - i.e. no Freddie Green. A week later, Basie arrived to the gig and Freddie Green was there unpacking his guitar. Basie said something like, "oh, are you on this gig, Pep?" (a nickname owing to his "salt and pepper" hair). Freddie just said something like, "well you workin' ain't you?". Although there were still diehards like Freddie, the rhythm of jazz evolved away from the rhythm that swing rhythm guitar provides.

    Acoustic 4-beat rhythm guitar in a modern big band is like the appendix in the human body. No one is precisely sure what purpose it serves, and you never really know that it's there until something goes horribly wrong, and then it can ruin everything.
    Haha, yeah.

    That said, I play regularly in a modern big band. I play a 175 into an amp, and everyone's happy lol. I just like to hear the horns.

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by campusfive
    I don't know how this went from a suggestion that "felt and not heard" for big band rhythm guitar is a myth to bringing up someone like Brian Setzer playing rockabilly guitar all over a big band. Huh?

    And even though I think this might devolve discussion, "Good music is good music no matter how it is done."?
    No. Good music is good music precisely because of how it's done.
    That would be me responding to ''when you the leader of big band you can play as loud as you want''. Guilty, I'm a Brian Setzer fan, he made big band cool again for a while, at least for me back in the day.

    I agree with all your points on rhythm guitar in big band, you're obviously know what you talking about, and I watched your videos on the subject, fascinating stuff, and very educational! And I'm a big fan of your solo guitar, chord melody and all that stuff.

    "Good music is good music no matter how it is done" is debatable. I always think what's good for one could be awful for another person. So Brian Setzer playing rockabilly over big band sounds exciting and fresh to me, but I can see how it could be considered in a bad taste for a true big band devotee.

    Funny, I remember, there is guitarist, a big band leader in NYC, basically the East Coast answer to Jonathan Stout, who posted on FB recently something like 'only exact recreation of big band sound of that era is artistic achievement. If you deviate and start doing something of your own is not acceptable for a true artist.' I think most in jazz community were kind of shocked by that statement. But the guy can play, so it's a valid opinion I guess.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    Here are a couple of screen captures from that video. The action is exceptionally high, as is especially evident from the distance they move when fretting. He doesn’t fret the 6th string at all here.


    "We've only got one tough rule in this band . And that's that cat that plays that guitar. See, everybody's got to listen to him, you know. And he ain't going to let you go nooo...where. Keeps you right straight...can't move. Keeps it together" — Count Basie
    And yet, Steve Little, a great drummer I've worked with, who has played drums for both the Basie Band, and the Ellington Band, said that Freddie Green had bad time.
    He also said the Ellington Band couldn't sight read to save their lives. Put a new piece of music in front of them, and they sounded like a high school stage band.

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    And yet, Steve Little, a great drummer I've worked with, who has played drums for both the Basie Band, and the Ellington Band, said that Freddie Green had bad time.
    He also said the Ellington Band couldn't sight read to save their lives. Put a new piece of music in front of them, and they sounded like a high school stage band.
    It’s sometimes hard to know with vets like that if they are dishing the dirt or being accurate, but I’ve heard many interesting stories over the years.

    I think the second point is worth bearing in mind as it’s hard to conceptualise today but those bands didn’t read music on the gig - a big band today is a bunch of players getting together to sight read charts.

    In fact AFAIK a lot of the early Basie arrangements - Jumpin at the Woodside etc - weren’t written down.

    When you are playing 6 shows a week or more, it’s a totally different thing.... those bands were working so much in their heyday!

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Funny, I remember, there is guitarist, a big band leader in NYC, basically the East Coast answer to Jonathan Stout, who posted on FB recently something like 'only exact recreation of big band sound of that era is artistic achievement. If you deviate and start doing something of your own is not acceptable for a true artist.' I think most in jazz community were kind of shocked by that statement. But the guy can play, so it's a valid opinion I guess.
    I would agree with that it if it’s framed in terms of ‘if you are going to play swing era big band music it should be recreated as accurately as possible’ - I think that’s important because it’s such a specific sound and it’s something else when you hear it done right.

    So many musicians go onto autopilot and don’t bother to make the effort.

    Whether or not it’s art (let alone the only acceptable true art) I don’t know. I think it’s a very modern, post-millennial thing to want to do. Somewhat at odds to the jazz tradition, ironically in that I think many of the elders find this sort of thing quite strange as they abandoned those performance practices in their lifetimes. (Although as the swing era passes out of living memory, the relationship to it becomes different, more historical.)

    As Jonah puts it HIP (Period performance) for jazzers. Interesting though.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-31-2019 at 07:46 AM.

  16. #90

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    Johnny Gimble could swing better than most would say, "If you try to play like someone else who's going to play like you."

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I would agree with that it if it’s framed in terms of ‘if you are going to play swing era big band music it should be recreated as accurately as possible’ - I think that’s important because it’s such a specific sound and it’s something else when you hear it done right.

    So many musicians go onto autopilot and don’t bother to make the effort.

    Whether or not it’s art (let alone the only acceptable true art) I don’t know. I think it’s a very modern, post-millennial thing to want to do. Somewhat at odds to the jazz tradition, ironically in that I think many of the elders find this sort of thing quite strange as they abandoned those performance practices in their lifetimes. (Although as the swing era passes out of living memory, the relationship to it becomes different, more historical.)

    As Jonah puts it HIP (Period performance) for jazzers. Interesting though.
    Of course, I would agree with that too, but it was not like that. It was if you're trying to do your own thing you're not an artist. You're only artist if you do what has been done. I mean it wasn't a humble post, and unprovoked, because he's well established guy. Doesn't go grocery shopping without his vintage clothes on, but I dig that, I like style conscious peeps haha.

    Close to the topic, if I play swing rhythm on my tele I found the way to make it sound better is to strum over the neck area, beyond the neck pickup. Is it a well known thing? It does make a difference than if you strum closer to bridge. More acoustic sound that way. And turned down the volume of course!

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Of course, I would agree with that too, but it was not like that. It was if you're trying to do your own thing you're not an artist. You're only artist if you do what has been done. I mean it wasn't a humble post, and unprovoked, because he's well established guy. Doesn't go grocery shopping without his vintage clothes on, but I dig that, I like style conscious peeps haha.
    Yeah I know his type I play with them sometimes haha. What a load of bollocks lol.

    This is what happens when people don’t have direct contact with cantankerous mentors who slap them upside the head tell them not to be so stupid.

    Close to the topic, if I play swing rhythm on my tele I found the way to make it sound better is to strum over the neck area, beyond the neck pickup. Is it a well known thing? It does make a difference than if you strum closer to bridge. More acoustic sound that way. And turned down the volume of course!
    Yeah me too.

    Most of the archtop guys rhythm guys played in that region. Probably why they put the pickup around there.

  19. #93

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    Johnny Cash used to play way up the neck. Strumming near the center of the string gives more fundamental and fewer overtones, so a different sound than near the bridge.

  20. #94

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    Not a big band, but i was listening to this album, Herb Ellis and Freddie Green on rhythm guitar, besides the chill music, a great chance to hear Freddie's comping style on a whole small band album! Plus a ton of other good music on that channel..


  21. #95

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    Rhythm Willie is a great album.