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Originally Posted by Webby
"We've only got one tough rule in this band . And that's that cat that plays that guitar. See, everybody's got to listen to him, you know. And he ain't going to let you go nooo...where. Keeps you right straight...can't move. Keeps it together" — Count BasieLast edited by KirkP; 07-25-2019 at 12:44 PM.
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07-25-2019 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Chris'77 -- and pianists too!
My classical theory teacher (half the class was "crushing hard" on her) used to say "I could beat you all up with my pinky finger"
She was a hell of a classical pianist!
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Originally Posted by KirkP
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Originally Posted by docsteve
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Oh and release the chord on the upbeat
You don’t have to do that so much on archtop cos it decays.
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To me, muting the chord between beats is essential. Holding a chord does not work for me.
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Originally Posted by sgosnell
But you're holding the chords just as long (or short) as the Bass-Player. Ideally you get that to lock in with the Drummer aswell.
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Played this great Nestico chart at big band rehearsal tonight, Epiphone Sorrento, Fender Champion 50XL. Chunk.
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Listening to it on a record can never capture the excitement and joy of playing it with a big band live.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by Jonah
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Originally Posted by sgcim
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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I played in a large big band in the early 2000s. I used my Hollenbeck with a Raezor's Edge twin 8 and AI Claris and generally I could get a setting that worked but some rooms where not good. The problem was I needed space to tinker around with where I sat and the amp and it never was enough, they did not care if the guitar got dinged by some horn player. It is all about setting up and sound check and it never goes well at a gig it seems like to me everyone is looking at me impatiently while I get things situated.
That said I could raise the action on my 18 inch Hollenbeck and it will produce enough punch for the rhythme section to hear me, and in a big band that may really be enough. If you mic the guitar like the horns it would be fine. The Hollenbeck produces lots of punch at 6/64 and 5/64's compared to my normal setting of 5/64 and 4/64's. Looking at the Freddie Green Action I could shake the windows but it would probably have me sweating. Probably would need to take some steroids to beef up if I had to have Freddie's action.
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As for any style of music, the acoustics make a huge difference. Outdoors sucks out the bass and low mids. Too much concrete, glass and other hard surfaces turn everything to mud. My favorite space for big band was an old church with wood everywhere. Cafeterias with wood or carpeted floors and suspended acoustical tile ceilings were acceptable. The room shape and stage placement are critical too. Right angles and symmetry are generally bad. I quit two bands after they moved to rehearsal spaces with poor acoustics. If it’s impossible to sound good, why bother?
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I've done it with my noncut L7, and I can hear myself fine. The leader can't, though, so I bring the bud and a clip on mike to add just enough volume to keep people happy.
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The great George Duvivier resisted the electric bass, and even using an amp as long as he could.
I just finished the Geo. Duvivier bio," Bassically Speaking", and Derek Smith relates the story of Duvvivier's last gig with Benny Goodman. They were playing with the Quartet in Atlantic City, and Duvivier was using an amplifier. BG told him,"Pops, could you just turn it down a bit".
It was at the lowest level possible, but George went through the motions of turning it down. Benny wasn't satisfied, and said again, "Pops, turn it down".
So George turned it off, and Benny immediately asked him to turn it down again.
Without another word, George packed up the bass and amp, and left. Duvivier called BG's secretary on the way back to NY, and told her to cancel any remaining dates he had with Benny, and told her to tell Benny if he ever called him for a gig, he was "busy for life". LOL!!!!!!!
He got so sick of his Fender bass, that he purposely left it in his car in front of his apt. in NYC, and left the doors unlocked.
In the morning, just as he expected, the Fender was gone. He was overjoyed!
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Originally Posted by sgcim
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I think this article has most of the salient points relevant to this discussion:
The realities of playing Acoustic Swing Rhythm Guitar — Jonathan Stout and his Campus Five featuring Hilary Alexander
I think the TL;DR version of the article is that unless you're playing an very acoustically satisfying space, with a sensitive band re: dynamics, and period instruments (i.e. large old drums, calf-esque heads, small and thin cymbals, etc., oh, and a gut stringed acoustic bass player with no amp), then it's not a fair fight, and you should amplify as needed... but wisely. The goal is to preserve as much of the acoustic archtop timbre as possible.
I'm kinda done with this "children should seen and not heard" nonsense applied to rhythm guitar.
I mean, it shouldn't be loud, or anything, but it's not supposed to be inaudible.
If you listen to air-checks where you can hear the guitar better than average, I think you'll find it actually sounds better to hear a bit of the chunk. Here's one of my favorites, Allan Reuss with Benny Goodman, live in 1937:
He's definitely audible during the main ensembles, and he's not completely erased during the shout.
Here's another where I feel like Reuss being audible sounds better than if he were "felt and not heard".
(also, dig the Reuss chord solo in the 2nd chorus, and then how Nick Fatool kicks things up to start the third chorus, and how Allan's pumping along right with him in the third chorus.)
Lastly, you can really hear that it's four even beats NOT "choo-chit" (long - SHORT).
I'd really like to correct something above about the Freddie Green amplifier story.
The story isn't about Freddie playing rhythm amplified, it's about him trying to take solos amplified.
When he went to take a solo, the rhythm would drop out and the feel of the band would come undone.
So, the fellas in the band started taking parts out of the amp so it wouldn't work, that way Freddie had no choice but to always be playing rhythm.
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Yeah I was listening to fletcher Henderson the other day and the guitar is often louder than the drums (!)
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For early recordings, it depends a lot on where the microphone was. And there was usually only one.
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Originally Posted by campusfive
I made a record of a gig last weekend.
(some Glenn Miller for you guys)
I did have a clip on mic on my guitar, but I had the recorder placed behind the PA, so what you're hearing is just the acoustics coming from the stage. Bassplayer in that Band plays amplified, Drummer plays a modern Drumkit. Still I think my guitar can be heard loud enough by itself. I just want to point out, that it can be done like that, even when you're playing with modern instruments, and there's no reason to not at least try it.
I found it extremely fruitful for my understanding of that style of music to have been in that "Fight for Volume" by the way. Even when I have my guitar mic'ed, that's the attitude I go for!
PaulLast edited by Webby; 07-30-2019 at 04:01 AM.
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