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  1. #1

    Easy question(beginner)

    My question is simple: Can a m7b5 chord be used instead of a dimished chord and vice verca?
    The reason I am asking is because I saw another transcription of the same song and one had notated a m7b5 while the other transcription called for a diminished chord.
    I know it's really trivial question from most of you probably but I would like to know which is the correct chord to use or both can be used.
    Thank you in advance

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  3. #2
    Beginner questions can be more complex than they might at first appear.

    As to the best answer can you do something in music, try it and decide for yourself if it works.
    If the question it is has it done before, the answer is yes but it also more nuanced.
    What is the context the diminished chord is being used?

    I'll give two examples:

    leading tone diminished.... Bo7 Cma6 || Bm7b5 Cma6

    common tone diminished.... Co7 Cma6 || Cm7b5 Cma6

  4. #3
    What's the melody note in relation to the chord?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
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  5. #4
    F / / / Eo (or Em7b5) / A7 / Dm / / / C7 / F7 /

  6. #5
    There must gut tells me Em7b5, because it's clearly part of a minor ii V i...

    But what's the melody?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
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    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

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  7. #6
    it should be. cause there is a natural D in the melody. right ?

  8. #7
    Em7b5.

    What's the tune? Feels familiar, but I'm not sure where we are starting from.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  9. #8
    I'm sure you know it. Confirmation by Charlie parker

  10. #9
    Ah...

    Try Dm7 Dbm7 Cm7 F7 (2 beats each)at that point instead of a whole bar of Dm7 and the C7...
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassos View Post
    F / / / Eo (or Em7b5) / A7 / Dm / / / C7 / F7 /
    Eo is the diminished triad, 1 b3 b5

    Em7b5 is the chord, 1 b3 b5 b7

    Eo7 is the chord, 1 b3 b5 bb7 (=6)

    So you might play the triad in place of either chord, but not one chord in place of the other. If the melody is b7 or 6 you would play the corresponding chord as the other chord would clash with the melody.

  12. #11
    Oh I see, thank you

  13. #12
    But doesn't the line go: G D Bb G? That solidly outlines an Em7b5.

    And, as Mr.B pointed out, the Em7b5 comes before an A7 which would make it the ii. That makes far more sense than Eo.

    Are you mistaking the half-diminished symbol ø for the diminished sign o?

  14. #13
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    Easy question(beginner)

    Simplest answer I can think of - dim7s and m7b5 aren’t ALWAYS interchangeable but can be in some cases.

    I wonder what the source for Eo7 is?

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Simplest answer I can think of - dim7s and m7b5 aren’t ALWAYS interchangeable but can be in some cases.

    I wonder what the source for Eo7 is?
    c'mon man! A7 is born from E dim. A7 is like a cute little baby Edim
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  16. #15
    Only theoretically. Otherwise it's an A7b9 sub, which before a straight A7 is silly. It's a mistake.

  17. #16
    Tassos is mucking about. He's raised the same issue on another thread AND had it answered.

    It's an Em7b5 (of course). He got the half-dim sign and the o sign muddled. (As I wondered, to be immodest).

    Charlie Parker Omnibook

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Only theoretically. Otherwise it's an A7b9 sub, which before a straight A7 is silly. It's a mistake.
    negative. it's lowering one note. playing Bbdim to A7 to A7b5 is a great move.
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  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    c'mon man! A7 is born from E dim. A7 is like a cute little baby Edim
    I meant what book he got it from.

    Re the dim/dom connection. I don't think it's actually possible to play bebop without knowing that fact.

  20. #19
    So wait, have we now figured out that the chord was never Edim7, but a misreading of the circle with a slash through it m7b5 symbol?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  21. #20
    It's on the other thread.

    Charlie Parker Omnibook

  22. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    So wait, have we now figured out that the chord was never Edim7, but a misreading of the circle with a slash through it m7b5 symbol?
    I think that’s right

  23. #22

    Easy question(beginner)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassos View Post
    F / / / Eo (or Em7b5) / A7 / Dm / / / C7 / F7 /
    I’m sure others have this covered, but I’ll respond with my own take.

    Em7b5 works great as the ii in the i, V, i cycle to Dm. The only exception might be if there’s a conflict with a melody note. Em7b5 is E, G, Bb, D. Since Eo is the triad E, G, Bb you’ve basically just dropped the 7th from Em7b5. I think it’s richer with the 7th, but sometimes it’s nice to leave things more open. Bottom line: I’d probably play Em7b5 there unless there’s some reason to drop the 7th.

    By the way, if you had written Eo7 instead of Eo, I’d think of that as A7b9 with no root. But the next chord is A7, so Eo7 would seem a bit redundant.

  24. #23
    It's also a lot simpler than that, as I said before. Look at the bleedin' lead sheet!

    Never mind the chord, look at the notes: G D Bb G.

    Easy question(beginner)-untitled-jpg

    Holey moley

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I meant what book he got it from.

    Re the dim/dom connection. I don't think it's actually possible to play bebop without knowing that fact.
    oh haha. well i guess i'll just go fuck myself
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  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    oh haha. well i guess i'll just go fuck myself
    Oh I dunno, that said, there was that time an amazing bop player I know who went to jazz school was amazed by the fact that C#o7 was a sub for E7b9 in a C turnaround, so hey. Life’s rich tapestry and all that, and he can play bop better than me :-)

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Oh I dunno, that said, there was that time an amazing bop player I know who went to jazz school was amazed by the fact that C#o7 was a sub for E7b9 in a C turnaround, so hey. Life’s rich tapestry and all that, and he can play bop better than me :-)
    yeah man that was me. i know better now
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