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Thread: Bdim7sus4.....?

  1. #1
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    Bdim7sus4.....?

    Have I got this right? is this a Bdim7sus4 chord or should it be called something else?

    6th string X
    5th string 2nd fret (Root B)
    4th string 3rd fret (b5th)
    3rd string 1st fret (bb7th)
    2nd string 3rd fret (b3rd)
    1st string Open (4th or 11th)

  2. #2
    Bdim7add11 or Bdim7add4 (and other things). Not sure why you'd want that open E on the 1st string.

    Leave the 1st string muted and you have Bdim7 which is also Fdim7, Abdim7 and Dim7.

    A useful movable chord shape.

    I use this for Abdim7 when I play a chord melody of "Have You Met Miss Jones".
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    Thankyou very much Drumbler. In hindsight don't know why I thought sus4, that's for chords where the 3rd is omitted.

    In context the part of the sequence is Am, Bdim7add11, Bdim7add11/E, C6

    Coming to think about it looking at it again, for the Bdim7add11 then Bdim7add11/E, if instead taking low E as the root it could be E7b9/B (String6FretX, Str5Frt2, S4F3, S3F1, S2F3, S1F0) then E7b9 (String6Fret0, Str5Frt2, S4F3, S3F1, S2F3, S1F0). I read several times Dim7 chords mimic 7b9 chords so I missed that point originally.

  4. #4
    B F Ab D E on paper I suppose could be called Bdim7sus4 but I hear it as E7b9/B.

    What is the context?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    B F Ab D E on paper I suppose could be called Bdim7sus4 but I hear it as E7b9/B.

    What is the context?
    Thanks. It's a Waltz I wrote. A feature of Waltz seems to be passing diminished chords now and then.

    With the typical Waltz 3/4 time "Bass Chord Chord" (or "Oom pa pa"); E7b9/B played as "Bass(5th) Chord Chord" then E7b9 as "Bass(Root) Chord Chord".

  6. #6
    Yep it's inversion of E7b9.

    Also, it's not uncommon to see a 4th on a dim7 chord.

    See below image, key of C:
    Bdim7sus4.....?-screen-shot-2019-02-13-9-55-35-am-png
    Oh, hi - if interested, I post a lot of playing/practice clips at www.instagram.com/JakeEstner

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post

    Also, it's not uncommon to see a 4th on a dim7 chord.
    In the 6th diminished scale, which is my harmonic world, I end up playing this either due to melody or just movement all the time:

    C F G A to D G Ab B resolved however you resolve it
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  8. #8
    to the OP, from the same lens as above, it's a Bdim with a borrowed note
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio View Post
    Have I got this right? is this a Bdim7sus4 chord or should it be called something else?

    6th string X
    5th string 2nd fret (Root B)
    4th string 3rd fret (b5th)
    3rd string 1st fret (bb7th)
    2nd string 3rd fret (b3rd)
    1st string Open (4th or 11th)
    Notation time. It's easier to read if you notate that as the following one-liner.

    x23130 [R b5 bb7 b3 4(11)]
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    Thanks all. Also getting my head around tritone subs being preceded by their ii chord from Ted Pease's Jazz Composition Berklee book. I didn't know that before. It's helping me fill in the gaps alluding me on my mDecks Music Harmonic Analysis PDF.

    There's some diagonal lines connecting chords on his harmonic universe diagram I don't understand (page 53). He's used a dotted line to join the Secondary Dominants to the ii of the Tritone subs, and another dotted line to join the tritone sub to the ii of the secondary Dominant. For instance in the key of C major for the D-7 chord:

    V7/ii-7
    Bb-7 Eb7
    E-7 A7

    (Edit: Oh dear the diagonal lines didn't work out once posted. Just imagine a diag line between Bb-7 and A7, and another diag line between E-7 and Eb7)

    Secondary Dominant A7
    ii of Secondary Dominant E-7
    Tritone of Secondary Dominant Eb7
    ii of Tritone Bb-7

    Other than how these diagonally joined chords are a semitone apart I can't think what it means as the only thing described so far in the book is the secondary Dom and tritone being preceded by their ii chord (which would be side to side in the above diagram rather than diagnally joined).

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles View Post
    Notation time. It's easier to read if you notate that as the following one-liner.

    x23130 [R b5 bb7 b3 4(11)]
    OK got it!

  11. #11
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    +1


    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    B F Ab D E on paper I suppose could be called Bdim7sus4 but I hear it as E7b9/B.

    What is the context?

  12. #12
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    With diminished chords, or 7b9 chords, you can always add another note from the diminished scale. I.E., raise a note two frets:

    xx2323 --> xx2325
    xx2323 --> xx2343
    xx2323 --> xx2523 (gotta love the minor second rub)
    xx2323 --> xx4323
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  13. #13
    You might start thinking of how the "chord(s)" is/are functioning.... if the tune as you said... Amin... ? E7b9/B... C6 is your chord movement.

    I hear as Key of A-....... Amin...your B chord or E7/B is basically functioning as a Dominant chord of the C6 which sounds more like A-6

    So really the chord movement is Tonic... Dominant... Tonic....
    Or........................................... I- / V7 / I-7

    If your hearing old school maj/min functional harmony... the A- would be relative Min.(VI-) of Cmaj...(Imaj) and the B chord would be either an inversion of V7b9 or VIIdim7 from "A" Har. Min. The Amin and C6 are basically the same thing... both Tonic.
    So maybe... VImin... VIIdim7...Imaj6.

    The notes your playing can also easily be heard as version of B-7b5....

    With most jazz harmony.... the II V can be thought of as a Chord Pattern... which is heard and though of as just One Chord. So if your progression is.....

    //A-7 / B-7b5 E7b9 / A-7 //... (the A-7 is just version of C-6 which is same notes) and the B-7b5 E7b9... is a version of your E7b9/B

    The point is all of the above are just versions of simple Tonic Dominant Tonic harmonic movement...

    Inversions or Voicings of chords don't generally change the Function.... they add interest, root movement or camouflage.

    When you get into the Chord Scale Theory "thing"... which is not really theory, but does help give more complete harmonic pictures of typical jazz harmony.... you"ll begin to understand guidelines for the ...What, Where, When, Why and How of Chord Progressions and labeling.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio View Post
    Have I got this right? is this a Bdim7sus4 chord or should it be called something else?

    6th string X
    5th string 2nd fret (Root B)
    4th string 3rd fret (b5th)
    3rd string 1st fret (bb7th)
    2nd string 3rd fret (b3rd)
    1st string Open (4th or 11th)
    Love that Arp. I'm sure there's lots of ways to think of it, name it, and use it. First thing that comes to mind is seeing the E natural on top as the major 3rd of a C major chord that we could resolve up to. So you have a pedal tone in the melody. If you have the right hand technique to separate this note out from the chord (play it first then play the chord, play it slightly louder and the rest of the notes slightly softer, etc) then you can just hit that E note, hold it, play the Bdiminished chord, and then resolve the chord to some type of Cmaj. Sort of anticipation as to where you're headed. You can even move the E note around before resolving the chord. Play E down to B in the melody or up to F and/or G... then resolve.

    I love doing a similar thing when resolving to a minor chord... I'll play the minor 3rd of the chord I'm going to resolve to over the diminished chord that comes before it. So if it's still Bdim -> Cmin, I'll include the Eb from the Cmin over the Bdim chord... so it effectively adds the major 3rd to the diminished sound... but it still works because of movement.

    I'm not a scholar of Barry Harris' method, but I believe this is talked about a lot there. I just generally find that I don't love the sound of running 1-b3-b5-bb7 over diminished chords, and I don't love the whole-half diminished sound much... I use both from time to time... but I prefer finding more melodic approaches to use. This is one of them. To use the notes of where we're headed. There's other approaches I like to, but this one can really bring out some lovely sound with melody and harmony.

    As for naming <should shrug>...

    I'd probably name it based on the situation. What key is it headed towards? Is there a bass player in the group? Is he expected to hit the B note that's the lowest from our voicing? Or do we assume he'll be playing something else? What is happening in the form during repetitions of this section (ex beats 1-2 of bar 4 of every A section).. things like that. If it's a stand alone theory test question, I'd likely name it based on being some type of Bdim7 chord... like a Bdim7add11... but I probably wouldn't count it as wrong if a student named it something else... like an inverted 7b9. Though I might write a note next to it on the paper if they called it a "sus4" as this generally implies the 3rd has been replaced by the 4, and in this case... they're both present.

    Cool sound any way you slice it!
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  15. #15
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    For anyone interested to get their hear around this progression. Namely the ones in Bold I'm not sure are the correct names.

    xx3210 Fmaj7

    xx3230 Fmaj7add6

    xx3231 F6

    xx3203 Fdimadd9

    x02210 Am

    x02231 Dm/A (probably not due to 2nd fret D string)

    x32210 Am/C

    x02210 Am

  16. #16
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    xx3203 has an Anat so it is not Fdim-anything. It looks F-Majorish to me, especially given its neighbours. The open B string can be called a #11 and the G is a 9, so FMaj9#11.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles View Post
    xx3203 has an Anat so it is not Fdim-anything. It looks F-Majorish to me, especially given its neighbours. The open B string can be called a #11 and the G is a 9, so FMaj9#11.
    Thanks for pointing that out. Certainly no Ab there, don't know how I missed that. I agree with FMaj9#11. Many Thanks!

  18. #18
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    I notice the whole progression is diatonic in C -- no outside notes, so it sounds more modal than jazzy, if you know what I mean. Call the whole thing A Aeolian?

    I just noticed x02231 -- is that really the chord played? Rather than give it a specific name I'd call it an "A Aeolian" chord.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles View Post
    I notice the whole progression is diatonic in C -- no outside notes, so it sounds more modal than jazzy, if you know what I mean. Call the whole thing A Aeolian?

    I just noticed x02231 -- is that really the chord played? Rather than give it a specific name I'd call it an "A Aeolian" chord.
    Just checked and yes you're right it is all diatonic. C major or A minor. x02231 as a simple Dm chord instead
    (xx0231) has the same effect so I'm inclined to call x02231 some kind of Dm, maybe Dm9/A (the 9th, E on the D string). Still no idea on the "xx3230 Fmaj7add6", could be a Dm9/F I suppose (b3, 5, R, 9).

  20. #20
    I play cello with a talented guitarist/composer. He creates through composed songs with really interesting voicings
    but at times struggles to name certains chords. Played as a solo guitar compositions, this doesn't matter.

    A chord can be named just by the notes played and whatever seems most obvious but sometimes a chord reveals
    itself to be something other than what the note collection indicates on the surface.
    Experiment with different bass notes. This is likely to provide a clue to reinforce the assumption or reveal a
    hidden truth. This is the puzzle I have to unravel when learning a new composition of his.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio View Post
    Just checked and yes you're right it is all diatonic. C major or A minor. x02231 as a simple Dm chord instead
    (xx0231) has the same effect so I'm inclined to call x02231 some kind of Dm, maybe Dm9/A (the 9th, E on the D string).
    Since x02231 has an Am chord before and after it and its lowest notes are A-E-A, it sounds like an Am chord to me. The top notes (D-F) sound like upper neighbours to C-E: the movement C-E --> D-F --> C-E still sounds A Aeolian to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio View Post
    Still no idea on the "xx3230 Fmaj7add6", could be a Dm9/F I suppose (b3, 5, R, 9).
    I'm fine with Fmaj7add3 (or FMaj13).

    Still, I would be tempted to call the whole thing "A Aeolian" and leave it at that.
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  22. #22
    G13 b9/B moving to C seems about right
    unless I misunderstood the context.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles View Post
    I'm fine with Fmaj7add3 (or FMaj13).
    FMaj13 does it for me. I didn't think as far as compound 13 I've never written anything that could have what could be called 13 in it, having only ever come across it in already written compositions that already have chords containing it. A blindspot, scratching my head over 6 and 7 in same chord, seems obvious now.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles View Post
    Since x02231 has an Am chord before and after it and its lowest notes are A-E-A, it sounds like an Am chord to me. The top notes (D-F) sound like upper neighbours to C-E: the movement C-E --> D-F --> C-E still sounds A Aeolian to me.

    Still, I would be tempted to call the whole thing "A Aeolian" and leave it at that.
    It is Aoelian, it has to be a chord progression though so if Am for that particular chord there is no b3 in there. How about Asus4#5? (x 0 2 2 3 1 as intervals = x 1 5 1 4 #5) Just googled "Asus4#5" it's there hmmmm. Functionally speaking, a basic Dm still gives the same effect so I'm still inclined to that flavour of definition , but still.....hmmmmm . You are a great help thanks.
    Last edited by Arpeggio; 02-21-2019 at 06:33 AM.

  24. #24
    Yea... they are just voicings. You need to decide on a "root"... to actually label chord name.

    The Aeloian modal thing.... with it's other relative major.... Lydian Maj. Fmaj7#11 could be description, modal description with hints of Functional relationship.

    Generally... that F chord becomes a F dominant chord (bVI).... then if you want to be functional.... that F Chord would be followed by the V7 chord E7. It could be played, or just implied melodically.

    In the end... who cares... just play and see where it goes. Have fun.

    Fmaj lyd.... noodle / That Fdimadd9 could be B-7b5.... then E7b9 and your in Amin.... might be basic typical chord progression that what your playing is from...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Fmaj lyd.... noodle / That Fdimadd9 could be B-7b5.... then E7b9 and your in Amin.... might be basic typical chord progression that what your playing is from...
    Got it, you mean Fmaj9#11 though? (that chord turned out not to be Fdimadd9). My thinking on what you are saying is that Fmaj9#11 could be B-7b5 because the bviMaj7 and ii-7b5 are both in the subdominant family of the minor key.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Yea... they are just voicings. You need to decide on a "root"... to actually label chord name.

    The Aeloian modal thing.... with it's other relative major.... Lydian Maj. Fmaj7#11 could be description, modal description with hints of Functional relationship.

    Generally... that F chord becomes a F dominant chord (bVI).... then if you want to be functional.... that F Chord would be followed by the V7 chord E7. It could be played, or just implied melodically.

    In the end... who cares... just play and see where it goes. Have fun.
    Great Stuff. F Dominant would be the tritone sub of the V/V7 (F Dom is the Tritone sub of B7, which is the V of the E7). This thing I'm writing has to be written down in some way I'm afraid, so other can get it without me being there.

  26. #26
    Yea... Fmaj9#11... is F lydian, and I was hinting that what you labeled as Fdimadd9... might be " B-7b5 "... which yes can be subdominant etc... but my basic point is when you label chord progressions.... you need to start with roots.... root motion, and then you can create voicings above etc... So I was again hinting at what you might be hearing as the basic chord progression, and I could have been totally wrong.... Many great and cool tunes are personal versions of basic chord progressions...

    There are always many possible functional and harmonic relationships between voicings and chords, you generally want to notate where your starting from, which becomes the starting and basic Reference....the harmonic Reference. You can then start creating new relationships with that beginning harmonic Reference .... the use of musical relationships, such as voicings, pedals, slash chords, use of subs, and other musical relationships and possible development of those relationships.

    If your trying to notate what you want played... there are a few choices, the obvious would be to use music notation with a note, play in open position. Over the years I've seen many parts with short notational example with position mark and then... play in similiar style with just rhythmic kicks and maybe some melodic lead lines etc...

    The next choice is to try and notate the voicings with chord labels, somewhat like used on this thread and notate on some type of layout of the Form of the music. Like iReal pro etc... This approach works OK when one somewhat knows the tune or music.
    And is very common with many guitarist... usually because sight reading music notation is a dying skill etc...

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