Chord Structure question

[ragman1]

On the contrary the formula is not related to the root major scale at all.

Oh, dear.

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[matt.guitarteacher]

On the contrary the formula is not related to the root major scale at all.

Formula is chord roots + intervals, in the formula they are abstract from any scale. That's the whole sense of these formulas actulaly.
b7 is always minor7th and 7 is always major7th, no realtions to any scale (the whole chord has functional or scale relations, but formula does not represent it).
Essentially the formula is not realted to scale at all, it is purely intervalic.

It's true that they aren't "from" that scale, but associating and spelling intervals from major scale is a common practice approach. I think it's understood that for they don't "come from" major. It's just shorthand. Makes spelling intervals for much easier.

Conventions for naming the intervals are basically based on the major scale (major and minor intervals etc), and that's why they have the appearance of "coming from" major. Anyway, these associations with major are pretty easy on the brain, especially for beginners.

[Jack E Blue]

Sorry, I thought this was a discussion about theory.

If somebody insisted on calling a Les Paul a Stratocaster, would it be trivial to point out the error?

There's nothing wrong with pointing out errors. However, there are times when pointing out a tiny error that doesn't affect the outcome, and you clearly understand what the person meant, just becomes pedantry. It distracts from the original (and more important) question.

The difference between a Les Paul and a Strat is significant. There is a big, noticeable difference between them.

However, Ab and G# are the exact same pitches. Which name you use is dependent on context AND having an in depth understanding of the accepted naming conventions to know which name to use.

I see that some people call a chord E7b5 while others call the exact same chord an E7#11. It's the same chord regardless what you call it. Yet people will argue about it.

Anyway, I'll refrain from making smart-ass remarks in the future.

I'm sure the OP headed for the hills long ago. As for me, I'm going to watch some Jimmy Bruno videos to clear my head.

[Jonah]

It's true that they aren't "from" that scale, but associating and spelling intervals from major scale is a common practice approach. I think it's understood that for they don't "come from" major. It's just shorthand. Makes spelling intervals for much easier.

Conventions for naming the intervals are basically based on the major scale (major and minor intervals etc), and that's why they have the appearance of "coming from" major. Anyway, these associations with major are pretty easy on the brain, especially for beginners.

In classical theory the most effective way to teach it intervals for beginner is to teach via chordal relations and inversion.. this is how I do it.

I teach 3rds as part of triads, 4rth as a cadential 6/4 chord and 6th as a 1st invesrion of I chord.
I do not really much speak about scale even really or its harmonization.
Of course it is all done with the instrument.

Association with C major is clear but it is not really good imho.. especially if you begin to transpose it... C major scale degrees are all diatonic (historically 'natural')... but compare it with Fis- dur or B-dur and it turns all the method in total mess... which ragman1 totally demostrated with 'G#'

[Jonah]

However, Ab and G# are the exact same pitches.

Not always!!!

I see that some people call a chord E7b5 while others call the exact same chord an E7#11. It's the same chord regardless what you call it. Yet people will argue about it.

Chord is defined by context. If these neames are used with real understanding those are two different chords (E7#11 may contain natural 5, E7b5 - not)

[ragman1]

I see Jonah must always be right :-)

[matt.guitarteacher]

In classical theory the most effective way to teach it intervals for beginner is to teach via chordal relations and inversion.. this is how I do it.

I teach 3rds as part of triads, 4rth as a cadential 6/4 chord and 6th as a 1st invesrion of I chord.
I do not really much speak about scale even really or its harmonization.
Of course it is all done with the instrument.

Association with C major is clear but it is not really good imho.. especially if you begin to transpose it... C major scale degrees are all diatonic (historically 'natural')... but compare it with Fis- dur or B-dur and it turns all the method in total mess... which ragman1 totally demostrated with 'G#'

Once you get into more prevalent altered pitches and nonfunctional "scales" like melodic minor, the way they're used in jazz, this method makes a lot more sense than it probably would in a classical setting.

[ragman1]

I'm sure the OP headed for the hills long ago. As for me, I'm going to watch some Jimmy Bruno videos to clear my head.

It was his one and only post. He probably found the answer elsewhere 10 seconds after he posted. Anyway, it's got to the fun stage now :-)

Enjoy Jimmy, especially on theory and theorists

F*%£"@* *!^%$!!!

[ragman1]

It's true that they aren't "from" that scale, but associating and spelling intervals from major scale is a common practice approach. I think it's understood that for they don't "come from" major. It's just shorthand. Makes spelling intervals for much easier.

Conventions for naming the intervals are basically based on the major scale (major and minor intervals etc), and that's why they have the appearance of "coming from" major. Anyway, these associations with major are pretty easy on the brain, especially for beginners.

That was the idea. You once gave me a long lecture on this and I actually listened :-)

(I wouldn't bother with scales now, it's just intervals regardless. But the scale references tell us why it's those intervals...)

[Jack E Blue]

Not always!!!

This is the kind of hair splitting that I've been talking about.

Chord is defined by context. If these neames are used with real understanding those are two different chords (E7#11 may contain natural 5, E7b5 - not)

This makes sense. I understand what you're saying and I clearly see the difference now. A light in my head just came on, and I have to thank you for that.

See, I'm not completely unreasonable and argumentative.

[Jonah]

I see Jonah must always be right :-)

No must. It is just that I AM almost always right. I can't help it.

[Jonah]

[QUOTE]This is the kind of hair splitting that I've been talking about.[/QUOTE

Hundreds of years of music was built on that hair-splitting.

The key idea in everything I write is hearing first of all.
Enharmonism as it is - however paradoxally it iseem - is derived the fact that the pitches are slightly different.

[ragman1]

See, I'm not completely unreasonable and argumentative.

Oh, I am!

[ragman1]

the pitches are slightly different.

Only when I play them on different strings...

[Jonah]

Once you get into more prevalent altered pitches and nonfunctional "scales" like melodic minor, the way they're used in jazz, this method makes a lot more sense than it probably would in a classical setting.

I know that, matt... and I know common methods in jazz.. but I also know that I disagree with many of them... they are so often taken for granted.

Of course my method I described makes more sense in fucntional tonality (not necessarily classical only)... but lots of jazz is based on classical functional tonality.

I am not against chord scale approach and I respect many methods and all... but I still do not find harmonizations of modes in paralell chords and learning respective chord scales a good beginners method.

It would be msuch better to pratice it all immidiately with voicings and functional connections... because it will intriduce the language imidiately.

[Jonah]

Only when I play them on different strings...

When you play them in differnt context... they sound differnt pitch even on piano.

(of course it is much easier to do it on violine, but good hearing pianist can make it with articulation).

[ragman1]

when you play them in differnt context... They sound differnt pitch even on piano.

(of course it is much easier to do it on violine, but good hearing pianist can make it with articulation).

I know.

On a piano it's probable that the string's vibration of a particular key would be affected by which strings were vibrating around it. Either that or it's an auditory illusion, like a colour appearing different against different background colours. But if you just hit a certain key completely independently of the influence of any other, naturally it would be the same note. Although it would also change depending on how hard you hit it... etc.

It's not rocket science.