The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1
    Long time since I have been on here, but I'm back !

    So, I play in a band, a quartet; Drums, Guitar, Piano and Double bass/vocals (the singer is the bassist). So basically its more like a Quintet. I have been in this band for 2 years now and we have had some relative success but since the very beginning the biggest problem we have is the comping between the piano and guitar.

    We have tried different ways of working it out, sharing it. Sometimes the pianist wont comp the head and he leaves it to me and vice versa and we do this in solos too sometimes. We have tried to very explicitly write arrangements so as to have space for the vocals/guit/piano but this doesnt work on EVERY tune, you need space in the head and solos to express yourself without playing the same thing every night. And we have tried comping together but we so often get in eachothers way.

    This has led me to a lot of reflection on the subject, much of it introspective and self critical, some of it has been whether or not me and this piano player are compatible; I feel he has a very 'big' sound, huge chords, loads of colour and movement etc. but even when we talk openly about it (and we both do talk candidly about it together) we both agree on certain things and we try to correct and adapt but the problem is still there.

    Some things I have already done to try and get through it:
    - I have transcribed my favourite guitarists comping piano players (Jim Hall/Bill Evans, Peter Bernstein/Peter Martin etc) if i have time to write them out properly I will post them here.
    -I Regulary listen to piano trios and try to comp the piano player
    -I have tried drastically reducing the size and colour of my voicings and concentrated on playing simple and rythmic.
    -I have tried playing single line comping, forgetting about chords and trying to comp with just a few notes and melodic lines.

    Although these are all good tools for comping in general I still feel that I still dont have enough to really comp the guy as he should be comped. When I am comping any other instrument I get lots of enjoyment out of it and I feel I do quite a good job. But the piano remains elusive !

    So, I wanted to bring this question to you, beautiful people of the Jazzguitar forum. Many of you will have loads more experience than I. I'm not looking for a quick fix and not neccessarily looking for someone to tell me exactly what to do next. I just thought it could be interesting to hear what you guys have to say about the subject and whether or not you have encountered the same problems and what have you done to get through it.

    Cheers
    John

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny-onions
    Long time since I have been on here, but I'm back !

    So, I play in a band, a quartet; Drums, Guitar, Piano and Double bass/vocals (the singer is the bassist). So basically its more like a Quintet. I have been in this band for 2 years now and we have had some relative success but since the very beginning the biggest problem we have is the comping between the piano and guitar.

    We have tried different ways of working it out, sharing it. Sometimes the pianist wont comp the head and he leaves it to me and vice versa and we do this in solos too sometimes. We have tried to very explicitly write arrangements so as to have space for the vocals/guit/piano but this doesnt work on EVERY tune, you need space in the head and solos to express yourself without playing the same thing every night. And we have tried comping together but we so often get in eachothers way.

    This has led me to a lot of reflection on the subject, much of it introspective and self critical, some of it has been whether or not me and this piano player are compatible; I feel he has a very 'big' sound, huge chords, loads of colour and movement etc. but even when we talk openly about it (and we both do talk candidly about it together) we both agree on certain things and we try to correct and adapt but the problem is still there.

    Some things I have already done to try and get through it:
    - I have transcribed my favourite guitarists comping piano players (Jim Hall/Bill Evans, Peter Bernstein/Peter Martin etc) if i have time to write them out properly I will post them here.
    -I Regulary listen to piano trios and try to comp the piano player
    -I have tried drastically reducing the size and colour of my voicings and concentrated on playing simple and rythmic.
    -I have tried playing single line comping, forgetting about chords and trying to comp with just a few notes and melodic lines.

    Although these are all good tools for comping in general I still feel that I still dont have enough to really comp the guy as he should be comped. When I am comping any other instrument I get lots of enjoyment out of it and I feel I do quite a good job. But the piano remains elusive !

    So, I wanted to bring this question to you, beautiful people of the Jazzguitar forum. Many of you will have loads more experience than I. I'm not looking for a quick fix and not neccessarily looking for someone to tell me exactly what to do next. I just thought it could be interesting to hear what you guys have to say about the subject and whether or not you have encountered the same problems and what have you done to get through it.

    Cheers
    John
    Great question. My approach comes from something I heard Bucky Pizzarelli say. “You gotta play where he ain’t”.

    If the pianist is in playing busy, you should play sparse. If he/she is playing in a higher register you play lower. Etc.

    You do need to work who will play the chord and who will play the upper extensions.

    It may also help to rehearse or gig with just the two of you to develop an understanding of each other’s style.


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  4. #3

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    Seems to me like you are doing what the normal recommendations tells us to do, and it seems like you have more experience than I have. I do play with a pianist too, however often without a drummer. I play very simple 4 to the bar rhythm mostly. An example from our record:
    If I try to do much I very soon find it to become difficult for the pianist. However, listening back to the tapes now I think I should have added a bit more, but still simple rhythm breaks.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    Great question. My approach comes from something I heard Bucky Pizzarelli say. “You gotta play where he ain’t”.

    If the pianist is in playing busy, you should play sparse. If he/she is playing in a higher register you play lower. Etc.

    You do need to work who will play the chord and who will play the upper extensions.

    It may also help to rehearse or gig with just the two of you to develop an understanding of each other’s style.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    We are going to do a residency with the quartet next week, 7 days of rehearsals so we are going to try and get a couple of hours a day just the two of us. What I find strange is that we play together a lot, i have an organ trio with the guy on organ (although organ is a very different thing to comp, obviously) but i agree, i think we need to get together just the two of us and work out some stuff. Thanks for the reply !

    Quote Originally Posted by gersdal
    Seems to me like you are doing what the normal recommendations tells us to do, and it seems like you have more experience than I have. I do play with a pianist too, however often without a drummer. I play very simple 4 to the bar rhythm mostly. An example from our record:
    If I try to do much I very soon find it to become difficult for the pianist. However, listening back to the tapes now I think I should have added a bit more, but still simple rhythm breaks.
    I use the four to a bar freddie green comping in our live sets and sometimes it really works (and i love doing it !) but when we have a set of an hour and half i need to vary it up a bit.

    Sounds good your band ! Heres a quick video of the quartet from a few years ago where the pianist takes a solo.


    I've also been working a lot on my ear, which is always a good idea, playing along to bill evans trio records and trying to really stay with him and react to his re-harmonisations as quickly and fluidly as possible.

    Thanks for your replies ! its good to talk about this with other guitarists !

  6. #5

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    I think one of the most balanced examples I know of are when Diana Krall uses a guitarist in her group. They succeed better than anyone else I can think of.


  7. #6

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    jim hall on working with bill evans..(they cut two incredible guitar-piano duo albums)


    "As you know, piano and guitar can he difficult because you tend to bump into one another. But with Bill, it was so easy. He had a beautiful sense of texture in that he would never let things get cluttered up. If I was playing rhythm behind him on one of his solos, he'd realise he didn't even have to use his left hand and wouldn't. So I enjoyed it a lot, especially with Bill."

    cheers

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I think one of the most balanced examples I know of are when Diana Krall uses a guitarist in her group. They succeed better than anyone else I can think of.

    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    jim hall on working with bill evans..(they cut two incredible guitar-piano duo albums)

    Im a big fan of anthony wilson's playing ! I also checked out the live stuff with Bernstein.




    "As you know, piano and guitar can he difficult because you tend to bump into one another. But with Bill, it was so easy. He had a beautiful sense of texture in that he would never let things get cluttered up. If I was playing rhythm behind him on one of his solos, he'd realise he didn't even have to use his left hand and wouldn't. So I enjoyed it a lot, especially with Bill."

    cheers
    I spent years listening to those albums, really great playing. you'd think it's an orchestra the way they use their instruments.

    and thats a great quote !

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I think one of the most balanced examples I know of are when Diana Krall uses a guitarist in her group. They succeed better than anyone else I can think of.

    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    jim hall on working with bill evans..(they cut two incredible guitar-piano duo albums)

    Im a big fan of anthony wilson's playing ! I also checked out the live stuff with Bernstein.




    "As you know, piano and guitar can he difficult because you tend to bump into one another. But with Bill, it was so easy. He had a beautiful sense of texture in that he would never let things get cluttered up. If I was playing rhythm behind him on one of his solos, he'd realise he didn't even have to use his left hand and wouldn't. So I enjoyed it a lot, especially with Bill."

    cheers
    I spent years listening to those albums, really great playing. you'd think it's an orchestra the way they use their instruments.

    and thats a great quote !

  10. #9

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    Sounds like you can have an open dialogue with your piano player about this stuff...that is usually not the case....but if you have that luxury then basically I think you propose the sharing/alternating approach. That means sometimes you lay out, sometimes the piano lays out.

    By that I mean: Just take turns comping and only occasionally both play at the same time (like maybe on some heads since the music is more predictable there). I know that in practice it's difficult to implement because amateur piano players seem to always have their head stuck in the real book and their default setting is non-stop playing as if they were as essential as a bass player...but the "easiest" fix is to just take turns comping. Piano should let you comp for THEM during most of their solos, and obviously they are comping for you during your solos...so that just leaves the bass solos (take turns) and during vocals (heads, share; scatting, take turns).

    Also, you can probably play single note guide tone lines sometimes while he's comping. Horn players do this.

  11. #10

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    That's Anthony Wilson, a fine player. He's playing FG style and does it perfectly. The guitar sits in the mix by itself the way FG's did. He's moving voices on each beat with great voice leading while grinding out rhythm, locked with the other players. Sounds terrific.

    FG style was developed for a very similar situation. A pianist who doesn't play too many notes (Basie) and a 4 to the bar swing groove. (FG actually backed up Oscar, so he worked well with busier piano too).

    Smooth and swinging!

  12. #11

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    yes ... GTL's (in octaves )work great with busy pno players
    that aren't into the whole listening thing ...

  13. #12

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    Counterpoint stuff works interesting...

    I do not have big experienbce but qwuite long ago we did this thing with a pianist - he actually did comping and I played sort of counterpoint line behind the soloist - as if I were a trombone or a tenor sax...

    Not just brief motives and responces to soloists lines - but long countepoint

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny-onions
    We are going to do a residency with the quartet next week, 7 days of rehearsals so we are going to try and get a couple of hours a day just the two of us. What I find strange is that we play together a lot, i have an organ trio with the guy on organ (although organ is a very different thing to comp, obviously) but i agree, i think we need to get together just the two of us and work out some stuff. Thanks for the reply !



    I use the four to a bar freddie green comping in our live sets and sometimes it really works (and i love doing it !) but when we have a set of an hour and half i need to vary it up a bit.

    Sounds good your band ! Heres a quick video of the quartet from a few years ago where the pianist takes a solo.


    I've also been working a lot on my ear, which is always a good idea, playing along to bill evans trio records and trying to really stay with him and react to his re-harmonisations as quickly and fluidly as possible.

    Thanks for your replies ! its good to talk about this with other guitarists !
    A Sleepin' Bee' was a great example of how a quartet like that should work. I liked how the arr. built up from just bass and vocals, and then everyone else entered one by one. Nice hits on the ending with you and the pianist, too.

    But playing with a busy pianist on longer, instrumental things is much more problematic. If it gets too busy, you've got to know when to lay out. You're just getting in the way.
    We were taping some things in the pianist's living room with bass, drums, guitar and piano (you can listen to us playing 'Stella' on the recording part of this forum), and all i do on the piano solo is either lay out altogether, or play quiet double stops on the D and G strings.
    Even on the bass solo, I didn't play anything until the pianist laid out, because he comps little melodies behind the bass.
    On another tune, the pianist freaked out on the playback, because he heard me playing voice leading using octaves on the low E and D strings, which he felt got in the way too much.

    We got together alone, just piano and guitar, and I knew he was not gonna be as accommodating as Bill Evans was with Jim Hall, so I brought my Boss OC-3, and played bass lines when he played the head and on his solos. He must have dug it, because he's putting it up on you tube soon.

    I play in a modern jazz big band with another pianist, and on the comping for the solos, I try to 'read the pianist's mind' and comp in unison with him.

  15. #14

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    Play 4 in a bar, freddie green style. Or just layout, he has to be willing to accommodate you, for what you're talking about to work.

  16. #15

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    Virtually all pianists learned to play in the style of the piano being the only instrument - playing full, complete, self-contained piano songs.

    From a practical standpoint it is very difficult to "turn" a pianist conceptually to play well with a guitarist. This is kind of why the rule of thumb in jazz historically is that you don't put a piano and guitar in the same band... too much potential for contention in the rhythm section.

    Yet, it can be done and can sound wonderful if you try a couple of things:

    - arrange your sets so that the pianist is featured in a few songs that lets them "express their pianistic chops" so they don't feel compelled to prove themselves in every tune.

    - convert your conceptual ideas for what the pianist should do during your solos into simple mechanical technique suggestions - for example ask them to play in such a way that their hands are together, almost overlapped. This gets them focused within a narrow band of the frequency spectrum so you can solo above or below it.

    - when comping for a piano, focus on blending back into the rhythm section and playing any stabs, accents, or flourishes in a minimalist way, always with your focus on rhythmic support, not so much harmonic extension.

  17. #16

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    It can be done, and has been. Basie, Cole, Peterson, et al prove it, but they may be outliers. It's not easy.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Virtually all pianists learned to play in the style of the piano being the only instrument - playing full, complete, self-contained piano songs.

    From a practical standpoint it is very difficult to "turn" a pianist conceptually to play well with a guitarist. This is kind of why the rule of thumb in jazz historically is that you don't put a piano and guitar in the same band... too much potential for contention in the rhythm section.
    I concur that this is part of the problem, but if we guitarists can learn to break out of the blues box and learn to read actual notation instead of tab then piano players can learn to LAY THE FC$K OUT like 20% of the time, can't they? It's just a lot easier to lay out then to work out some complicated arrangements or ask them to play differently. Like, just take your fingers off the instrument - done. Very easy. I agree that featuring piano on some tunes makes good sense, just like letting bass take the first solo now and then, having the band except bass drop out sometimes, taking bridge out, having the horn stroll sometimes, all that stuff. None of it is rocket scientist - it just takes listening to the classic jazz albums of the 50's and 60's to pick these things up. Perhaps this is the failing of amateur piano jazzers - not enough listening? Perhaps.

  19. #18

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    No experience playing in this situation but a lot of experience listening. And intensely watching.

    I enjoyed your video very much, from your chick bass/vocalist doing both very well to the tasty minimalist drummer to the rich dense chords of the pianist.

    Oh, did I say rich dense chords?

    Yea. His whole style is between 2 and 3 notes on left hand, 3 to 4 in the right. It's what he naturally does. That's what, 5 notes minimal and averaged more like 6. Typically covering every note of a say 11th chord at least once.

    Pianists that work good with guitars in rhythm work tend to back off and do bits with say octave in left hand, 2 chord notes in right, maybe three touches of the keys a measure.

    Don't know if your pianist realistically can comfortably and happily do that.

    So ... ever listen to those 2-3 guitar rock/pop/blues bands? Where one guy is the "lead" player? He mostly plays 2-5 note riffs at ends of phrases, just little bits of fill here and there.

    Fluffs out The Sound.

    Which has been suggested earlier in this thread. I think probably that's the easiest way around this, and would sound cool also.

    Your playing is great. The sound of your git and technique is very fine. Give the audience a bit of candy wrapped between the phrases. Tie things together. Be the subtle connector and let the pianist comp away.

    There's at least an eighth of a cent worth of advice there ... lol

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Virtually all pianists learned to play in the style of the piano being the only instrument - playing full, complete, self-contained piano songs.

    From a practical standpoint it is very difficult to "turn" a pianist conceptually to play well with a guitarist. This is kind of why the rule of thumb in jazz historically is that you don't put a piano and guitar in the same band... too much potential for contention in the rhythm section.

    Yet, it can be done and can sound wonderful if you try a couple of things:

    - arrange your sets so that the pianist is featured in a few songs that lets them "express their pianistic chops" so they don't feel compelled to prove themselves in every tune.

    - convert your conceptual ideas for what the pianist should do during your solos into simple mechanical technique suggestions - for example ask them to play in such a way that their hands are together, almost overlapped. This gets them focused within a narrow band of the frequency spectrum so you can solo above or below it.

    - when comping for a piano, focus on blending back into the rhythm section and playing any stabs, accents, or flourishes in a minimalist way, always with your focus on rhythmic support, not so much harmonic extension.

    Thank you, thats great advice and its what im looking to really get stuck in to.

    Quote Originally Posted by R Neil
    No experience playing in this situation but a lot of experience listening. And intensely watching.

    I enjoyed your video very much, from your chick bass/vocalist doing both very well to the tasty minimalist drummer to the rich dense chords of the pianist.

    Oh, did I say rich dense chords?

    Yea. His whole style is between 2 and 3 notes on left hand, 3 to 4 in the right. It's what he naturally does. That's what, 5 notes minimal and averaged more like 6. Typically covering every note of a say 11th chord at least once.

    Pianists that work good with guitars in rhythm work tend to back off and do bits with say octave in left hand, 2 chord notes in right, maybe three touches of the keys a measure.

    Don't know if your pianist realistically can comfortably and happily do that.

    Your playing is great. The sound of your git and technique is very fine. Give the audience a bit of candy wrapped between the phrases. Tie things together. Be the subtle connector and let the pianist comp away.

    There's at least an eighth of a cent worth of advice there ... lol

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    Your advice is worth a million euros ! haha and thanks for the little compliment

    It's in my nature to always look at myself and think that I am always the problem but as i get older and start gaining more experience im starting to understand that you cant ALWAYS take ALL the blame. the pianist in question is a very open guy and the conversations we have already had are very positive. I think he knows that he has to adapt as well. thats what its all about, adapting constantly to make the best music you can.

    His playing is his playing; his style, his personality. I have my style, my personality. We need to find out how to blend out two styles and peronalities to make it sound good!

    Thanks everyone !

  21. #20

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    I regulary do duo gigs with a pianist that I also do quintet work with. During the larger band I am more in the back and sketching progessions but as a duo we have a lot of interplay. He too uses huge chords and lots of movements. When he does I have found the best approach for me is to lay back and play "broken chords" with minimal coloration so he can freely move about the keys without any clashing. When it is my time to step forward he does the same and produces an outline that I can freely move around over. Finding that middle ground takes a lot of time and understanding of where each other is going. Just remember: usually less is more. The old adage is true: the hardest thing for guitarists to play is... nothing.