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Just would like to share my experiment, it's shame how hard was it for me for first time...
So here is this video, where Gilad Hekselman demonstrates motivic practice for a classroom, on "It Could Happen To You". He's great. I got this weird idea, to grab my guitar and comp him.
It was frustrating first, because I was not able to keep a stable rhythm. Now after practicing zillion times it seems easy, focusing on the metronome's 2 and 4s, but still if I forget to focus on 2 4s, and start listen and enjoy the impro, I sometime lost. Do not get me wrong, I am not stating Gilad is out of rhythm, indeed he is in rhythm like hell!
For those who interested, here are the changes what seems to fit for all the six choruses, so you can instantly grab your guitar :-)
| EbMa7 | Gmi7-5 C7 | Fmi7 | Ami7-5 D7 |
| EbMa7 | Ab13 | G13 | C7(#9) |
| Fmi7 | Abmi7 Db9 | EbMa7 | Dmi7-5 G7(+5) |
| Cmi7 | F9 | Fmi7 Gmi7 | AbMa7 Bb7 |
| EbMa7 | Gmi7-5 C7 | Fmi7 | Ami7-5 D7 |
| EbMa7 | Ab13 | G13 | C7(#9) |
| Fmi7 | Abmi7 Db9 | EbMa7 Ab13| Gmi7 C9 |
| Fmi7 | Bb13 | Eb6/9 C9| Fmi7 Bb7 |
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08-29-2018 04:15 AM
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Yea.... his phrasing is just not really in any pocket, he may be following the melody, but the rhythmic and harmonic organization of what he played ... is not in a groove. He is playing out side of a groove.
So if your comping you need to play at least two bar accent patterns. Accent patterns are grooves, the perception of a pattern.
Many younger players, have great time... by that I mean the overall pulse is always there but what they play has no groove.
There is a big difference between soloing and soloing with a rhythm section that is also soloing , by that I mean... rhythm is not just time. Any machine can stay in time....
But maybe that was the point... finding new ideas, then musically working with them etc...
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Reg, many thanks for the detailed thoughts.
Interestingly I usually did not pay attention when listening this swing/groove thing so your observation is very valuable for me. I always enjoy the rhythm (if good) regardless it is a really swinging one or much more complex, and I also pay attention to the great drummers who are evolved to play equivalent role in trio settings as the bass and the pianist/guitarist.
There was a debate here in an other thread if Metheny swings or not. I did not got the point regardless if he does or does not. I agree and believe that jazz is about rhythm, but who said it is exclusively an forever stone graved swing?
Yes this is my feeling too. I would add, that young players have in general greater time than some idolized and respected swinger, who are really swing, but sometime and regularly, when they accidentally lose rhythm for a few bar or note, that is really disappointing. Obviously I am not talking about Wes and the completely different Joe Pass who's rhythm just seems to be endlessly flow from inside and miraculous.
Originally Posted by Reg
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Yeah I agree with Reg's perceptions on it. I find that rhythm in modern jazz has got a bit detached from the physical thing become more abstract.
Gilad's clearly a musician on a very high level, but I'm not sure I would ever describe his music as groove based.
Some people actually blame the use of the metronome. A lot of the great groove music of the past - be it jazz or soul/funk - isn't metronomic, so I see where they are coming from. (I've got two words - Art Blakey lol.)
It's one thing working with a metronome in your practice room, it's another thing learning your time playing dance music with great rhythm sections.
It's that dance music sense in the Blue Note stuff that I take away from that music. In comparison, modern jazz can seem a bit, well, nerdy. Scientific. No one dances to a metronome.
I don't think I often go away from a contemporary jazz guitar record thinking 'yeah that was a great groove.' (Sometimes!)
It's a tricky one because although I think Dan Wilson swings for instance more than most, he's also playing in a quite historic style. So does proper, physically exciting swing have to be old school?
I do know that as much as possible (!) I want to recreate that exciting feeling I get in the classic jazz, without necessarily being bound to it stylistically as a player it's tricky.
There's other things too, like how people go about line construction, how rhythm sections play, and so on.Last edited by christianm77; 08-29-2018 at 02:21 PM.
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I'm curious what Reg thinks of Metheny
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It seems Reg is saying quite the opposite, if you read the whole sentence... But I'm might be wrong, I don't want to put the words in his mouth, just how i understand it. They have a great time, but not really groove. Originally Posted by Gabor
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Also, to me it's not exactly fair to bring Metheny into this discussion. It's a very different generations of players, Metheny, Sco, Frisell, Abercrombie... You can (at least I can) clearly hear those guys picked up the guitar inspired by blues, The Beatles, rocknroll and stuff like that.
Almost any star jazz young player post Rosenwinkle, like Gilad, have very different feel and sound and concept. To me their time has more to do with Classical music, probably not intentionally so. I never really connected with this generation as a leading force because of that.
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OK, someone PM'd me saying that I has holding an anti-metronome line, and I can see from my post in isolation why someone would think that.
In terms of my own position, I am always working on my time in various ways, very often with a metronome.
I do not have naturally good time (I've seen plenty of people exhibit it.) I think I have made progress, but I can always here things that need to be worked on, so you have to take any comments in that light, and my playing can be checked out easily enough for context. I'm also a working musician FWIW.
Anyway, when I say something like - these musicians say 'x', that's literally what I'm saying. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I'm saying it's a perspective. Other musicians swear by metronome practice. What I take away from this is that there is more to developing time/feel than practicing with a metronome. In fact musicians will always say things like 'play with great drummers.'
It's also an empirical fact that many of the old records speed up and slow down, have rhythmic 'inaccuracies', but somehow the groove is still awesome.
In fact my present understanding is that the metronome is a powerful tool for diagnosing and addressing problems but there are some basic problems it can't solve on its own.
OTOH it can't give the nuances best developed from listening and playing with the best musicians you can find. Feel is something beyond just making sure everything lines up with a click. That's obvious right?
Anyway I could blather on, and it's a bit OT, but thought I should clear that up, as I don't want to get strawmanned.
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This would be hijacking the thread. (of course anybody can freely say her/his thoughts) My point in this thread how hard is keeping the time and "time feeling" itself. Originally Posted by joe2758
Last edited by Gabor; 08-29-2018 at 03:42 PM.
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Blaming a 2/4 metronome usage for the direction the jazz is going... this is really new. (or I missed something) Originally Posted by christianm77
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I think it's worth checking out the thread 'white musicians lagging the beat' (in reference to a comment Miles Davis said) Jack Zucker had this to say: Originally Posted by Gabor
"yes, he's [Miles] right in general. Epitomized by listening to the way George Benson vs. Pat Metheny attacks 8th notes. Of course, it has little to do with skin color. It has more to do with the exposure of blues, R&B and jazz in black church.
I think it's no coincidence that Dan Wilson is one of the few young jazz guitarists (early '20s) who plays with that "black" feel. He happens to be black and was brought up in a very middle class environment but told me that his first exposure to jazz, blues and R&B was a child in african american churches. Compare his playing and time feel to Mike Moreno. Equally great player, but very different feel and approach to the beat."
It's a different accent and sensibility. I happen to really really admire than African American sensibility, but also resigned to the fact that my own accent in the music will be different. I think that's cool.
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Some musicians do in fact say this - again I'm not saying I agree. A lot of the older players never went near a metronome. Originally Posted by Gabor
But they were playing loads and loads of gigs, serving apprenticeships in touring bands and very often for dancers who were super picky about tempos and feels. In places like Cuba and Ghana, it's still communal music making, playing and dancing together.
That's a whole social world. Now we learn jazz in academic institutions. That's kind of summed up by people learning time by practicing on their own with a metronome on 2 and 4.
In general drivers in society - greater individualism, greater tendency to measure everything quasi scientifically.
But we have to do the best we can.
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Putting this in the real context Miles added that is not bad or good, and did not say the white guys did not swing. Miles also adored Bill Evans, and he had good reason :-) Originally Posted by christianm77
Agree, this is similar to my conclusion what I wrote in my first answer. Benson's rhythm is probably the greatest. He just picking one or two notes, and real music was born. Can listen endlessly. Originally Posted by christianm77
I was just saying do not idolize swing feel, and swing players, instead adore great time regardless it is classic swing or some complex "modern".
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Well if you look at the clip, I'm not sure it's even a serious answer... But yeah that quote from Jack sums it up. I think Mike Moreno swings for instance. And Bill, of course. Originally Posted by Gabor
He is UNBELIEVABLE isn't he?Agree, this is similar to my conclusion what I wrote in my first answer. Benson's rhythm is probably the greatest. He just picking one or two notes, and real music was born. Can listen endlessly.
I was just saying do not idolize swing feel, and swing players, instead adore great time regardless it is classic swing or some complex "modern".
I think you are right about not idolizing the past too much - how sad is that? You should learn from it, but not be trapped in it.
My feeling is that the concept of swing jazz time feel has evolved from a dance based thing into something much more abstract now. Now it's more mathematical?
And interaction is a big thing. Pure grooves don't interact much. 40's swing rhythm sections didn't.... Bebop introduced more... Now when you play a dotted 1/4 for instance, many drummers see it as a signal to follow you and play the same, rather than let it generate tension. It's cool for the musicians and interesting perhaps for a listening audience, but it disrupts any sense of groove the music might have. It's a different thing entirely.
Anyway, I don't actually feel (despite what people might think of me from this forum) that the answer is ever to retreat into the past. But - the problem contemporary jazz musicians face is that no-one likes our music. To me the lack of a strong groove might be part of that.
It's like when people say on a gig 'let's play a groove tune' at the end of a set of standards - the implication being that swing feel isn't a groove. Tell that to Blakey!
It seems that jazz musicians that are doing well outside of the jazz bubble are playing grooves for the most part - Snarky, Christian Scott* etc etc - a lot of it almost sounds a bit passe to the jazz fans, but it's definitely working out for them. I'm not seeing the post Rosenwinkel guitar movement quite digging into that, but maybe you can think of some examples.Last edited by christianm77; 08-29-2018 at 04:06 PM.
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Maybe its my English, but I did not bring up PM himself, especially did not compare him to anybody and mainly did not formed any opinion on him. That would be also out of topic. So I can not interpret "fair" or "unfair" in this context. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Instead I did bring up a pointless and endless debate on time (the old thread) which is related this masterclass and also adds something to Reg's thoughts, and formed my opinion that great time feel and interesting time is not equal with "swing".
I always thought Metheny's time feel (also Scofield's) is much more closer to Gilad's than to say for Joe Pass or Kenny Burrell's so neither PM or Scofield or Frissel are on the "swing side". I love them all. Just as Benson, Wes or Burrell or Joe Pass.
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Yes, I am aware that what I am added is not said by Reg, that's why continued my sentence with "I would add...". Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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Yeah, he's in time, but not locking into a 2-4 groove...which is interesting, because he starts out clearly putting the beat on 2 and 4, but if you listen to Hekselman play, well, anything...it's always a modern floating groove. You ain't gonna comp a Charleston along with it
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I agree with you- neither Metheny' nor Scofield's 'feel' is on the traditional ''swing side''. But that's not where the divide is for me. I love Scofield, I love Charlie Christian, they are worlds apart, but they... well, they rock! sorry I can't come up with better word, they just have that tight, locked in feel. In that they have a common ground. Originally Posted by Gabor
Gilad and players like him, they don't, not for me. I appreciate that you and obviously many other jazz fans love those modern players. But their music goes over my head. They don't rock.
oops, used the word 'rock' too many times... am I on the wrong forum?
(It's all comes down to what you like in music, basically a taste thing, right? Gilad is super talented musician, no one would argue with that, for sure. Just want to make that clear. )
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I guess I come from the train of thought that music doesn't have to have a locked in groove...unless it's trying to.
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Music doesn't... but the music I'm listening to mostly does Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Yea... I was just trying to help OP become aware of how to comp for the example of IT could happpp....
Even straight vanilla music has a groove, just different etc... When one plays a counter line or counter melody to a melody.... contrapuntal style. There is still rhythmic organizations with accents etc... Groove personally is just that perception of repeat. Doesn't need to be a funky pattern that locks etc... What makes music groove is the strength and layers of that perception of repeat. Which just becomes Feel.
I'm a rhythm section player that sight reads well and understands Music and musical organization... This makes me always look and hear physical shapes and organization... I can't help it....I understand different styles and how to make their performance feel right. By right I mean...I try to compliment or enhance what's there or implied.
I'm a groove and feel player by nature. But like I posted for OP... I can and would play a different style to accompany the vid etc... But I wasn't even sure of the context....teaching or trying to make a musical point in a class room setting... is generally not performance. I just listened to a few seconds of the vid...
I have always loved Metheny... he was in Boston when I was at berklee back in the early 70's... there were many great old and young players, was fun.
My goal is always to make the music and the musicians I'm performing with... better. Eventually one needs to get over their playing. I really didn't even thing... he's a great or lousy player.... I just listened to the example and recognized the style and gave a simple physical example of how one might try to comp with.... there is obviously much more... but playing is not about working out parts etc... Get skills together and play... learn from what you like and develop your style as well as be able to recognize other styles.
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