Some interesting chord substitutions in a minor key?

**Babaluma** · 08-08-2018, 01:59 PM

I have been learning about IV minor chords and how to use them in a major key. For example borrowing Abmajor to use as a subdominant in C major. Are there any interesting substitutions you could use to add interest or reharmonize when playing in minor key with a for example a -M7 tonic?

Thanks!

**matt.guitarteacher** · 08-08-2018, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by Babaluma

I have been learning about IV minor chords and how to use them in a major key. For example borrowing Abmajor to use as a subdominant in C major. Are there any interesting substitutions you could use to add interest or reharmonize when playing in minor key with a for example a -M7 tonic?

Thanks!

What tune are you learning with a tonic -M7? I would look at some minor tunes and become familiar with chord patterns from them. Those patterns can become subs which you can use to create movement over single chords, just like a VI-II-V-I in major.

**ragman1** · 08-09-2018, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Babaluma

I have been learning about IV minor chords and how to use them in a major key. For example borrowing Abmajor to use as a subdominant in C major. Are there any interesting substitutions you could use to add interest or reharmonize when playing in minor key with a for example a -M7 tonic?

Can I just get this clear? Are you asking what tunes have a minor/major7 chord as the I chord?

Are there any? I think some versions of Solar use it. But probably not usually.

**Babaluma** · 08-09-2018, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

What tune are you learning with a tonic -M7? I would look at some minor tunes and become familiar with chord patterns from them. Those patterns can become subs which you can use to create movement over single chords, just like a VI-II-V-I in major.

Sorry i was unclear, I mean more of substitutions where we are in a minor key with a minor tonic.

**Babaluma** · 08-09-2018, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Can I just get this clear? Are you asking what tunes have a minor/major7 chord as the I chord?

Are there any? I think some versions of Solar use it. But probably not usually.

Sorry I am really rubbish at presenting questions. Just mean if I have a minor tonic and minor key. For example if I am playing a minor II V I, are there some cool substitutions I can do? I have been playing around with some ideas for a major II V I but not sure how I translate them to minor. Or really any other set of chords which have a tonic minor and minor tonality.

**ragman1** · 08-09-2018, 01:30 PM

So you're basically just asking about a minor ii-V-i, except you want substitutions. Is that it?

And do you only mean chord substitutions? Or different ways of playing lines over the usual chords?

**christianm77** · 08-09-2018, 05:58 PM

This is how you translate major key into minor key

Take whatever gubbins you have on Dm G7

Dm G7 --> C
Dm G7 --> Am

So now you resolve to A, C or E as opposed to C, E or G

To get the sound of the E7b9, it's good to raise some of the G's to G#'s

Does that make any sense?

**rpjazzguitar** · 08-09-2018, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by Babaluma

I have been learning about IV minor chords and how to use them in a major key. For example borrowing Abmajor to use as a subdominant in C major. Are there any interesting substitutions you could use to add interest or reharmonize when playing in minor key with a for example a -M7 tonic?

Thanks!

The logic here, if I understand it, is that you want to play subdominant in Cmajor, which gives you Fmaj. But he you'll alter that to Fminor and then use the relative major of Fm, Abmaj, to become the replacement for Fmaj. Is that it?

So, Fmaj - G7 becomes
Fm - G7 which becomes
Abmaj to G7.

The simpleminded might get there by sliding into the G7 from a half step up.

Apply that simple notion to, say, a tune in Cm, and you end up sliding into Cm from a Db-something.

Just one option.

**ragman1** · 08-10-2018, 07:24 AM

I was going to do one of those video demos but I think words will do here, if you don't mind lots of them.

Working out chord subs isn't that difficult given a modicum of knowledge. It helps to know that a m7b5 is three-chords-in one. Also tritones. Also chromatic moves. Etc.

So:

Bm7b5 - E7(b9) - Am7/Am6...

Well, a 7b9 is practically a diminished chord so that could become

Bm7b5 - Bo - Am7/6.

Tritone the E7 and that becomes

Bm7b5 - Bb7 - Am7/6

Bm7b5 is also Dm6 so any Dm variation (Dm7, Dm9, Dm11) would do

Dm11 - Bo - Am7/6
Dm9 - G#o - Am7/6

A Dm9 is like an FM7 so that would do

FM7 - E7b9 - Am7/6
FM9 - Bb7b5 - Am7/6

Or a Dm could be subbed with a G7

G7 - Bo - Am7/6
G13 - G#o - Am7/6
G13 - E7#9/_{B -}Am7/6

Or put two chords to a bar

F#m7b5/Bb13 - Bm7b5/E7 - Am7/6

And then get chromatic

G7/Gb7 - F7/E7 - Am7/6

And so on... The sky's the limit really (well, not quite). What matters, as always, is the voice leading, so the notes of the chords move nicely into each other.

**ragman1** · 08-10-2018, 07:44 AM

Just thought of another one. A bit dark but it works okay.

Dm69 - E7b9 - Am/M7

x5345x - 0x313x - x0211x

**christianm77** · 08-10-2018, 08:18 AM

Bm7b5 is also G9

**ragman1** · 08-10-2018, 08:32 AM

I SAID THAT 3 chords in 1 subs Dm and G7 FOR CRYING OUT LOUD

Thank god it's Friday :-)

**christianm77** · 08-10-2018, 01:18 PM

You didn't quite spell it out though. It was there in your subs.

I mean, basically, there are two categories of chord here, G7 and E7. You have a few options with the second, probably the easiest of which is to just use a G# dim7. Later on you explore tritone/altered tonalities and all that jazz.

The first is a borrowed chord from minor. Rag has already covered 3 of the 4 main options, so I'll just put in here:

Bm7b5 --> Dm --> G7 --> Fmaj7(#11)

You have a bit of latitude with the Dm sound - it could be m6, m7 or m(maj7) or any extension you want. Just general minor.
Fmaj7 can also take a #5

I like F/B as a B7b5 sub BTW.

Now, the other three chords of the key can also be used. Basically you can use any of the chords of the G7 scale, mixolydian, but also lydian dominant.

Am --> Cmaj7 --> Em

These are sounds I am starting to explore now a bit more.

**ragman1** · 08-10-2018, 01:48 PM

Was that post for me or Babaluma? For him, I think.

He probably knows the 3-in-1 trick, tritones and chromaticism, so that was good enough.

Sure, Bm7b5 can be Dm can be F can be Am. Also F#5. F/B is good too.

E7 can be dim can be Bb7 can be Fm can be G7 can be... etc

CM7 can be Em can be Am can be #11 can be... etc

We still don't know if this is just for chords or lines as well. I suspect chords. Also, is this just hypothetical or is he actually playing something?

But, to repeat for him, voice leading is supremely important. It's all got to connect properly.

**Babaluma** · 08-10-2018, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Was that post for me or Babaluma? For him, I think.

He probably knows the 3-in-1 trick, tritones and chromaticism, so that was good enough.

Sure, Bm7b5 can be Dm can be F can be Am. Also F#5. F/B is good too.

E7 can be dim can be Bb7 can be Fm can be G7 can be... etc

CM7 can be Em can be Am can be #11 can be... etc

We still don't know if this is just for chords or lines as well. I suspect chords. Also, is this just hypothetical or is he actually playing something?

But, to repeat for him, voice leading is supremely important. It's all got to connect properly.

Sorry for late reply, thanks for these posts! Yes I was mainly looking at chord substitutions. I have been so busy at work but I am going to go through the replies fully tomorrow

**Babaluma** · 08-10-2018, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

This is how you translate major key into minor key

Take whatever gubbins you have on Dm G7

Dm G7 --> C
Dm G7 --> Am

So now you resolve to A, C or E as opposed to C, E or G

To get the sound of the E7b9, it's good to raise some of the G's to G#'s

Does that make any sense?

Thanks very much!

**christianm77** · 08-10-2018, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Was that post for me or Babaluma? For him, I think.

He probably knows the 3-in-1 trick, tritones and chromaticism, so that was good enough.

Sure, Bm7b5 can be Dm can be F can be Am. Also F#5. F/B is good too.

E7 can be dim can be Bb7 can be Fm can be G7 can be... etc

CM7 can be Em can be Am can be #11 can be... etc

We still don't know if this is just for chords or lines as well. I suspect chords. Also, is this just hypothetical or is he actually playing something?

But, to repeat for him, voice leading is supremely important. It's all got to connect properly.

Yes and the easiest way to connect the Bm7b5 type chords to the Am if by using a G#o7. It's not the only way, but it's a cheap and cheerful way of getting the bop sound, and dim7's are EASY on guitar. The next thing to try after that would probably be Bb7.

Anyway, addressing the OP, the important thing to notice is the steps and - ideally - half steps - you use to connect to the target chord. This is not the way Bird actually did it every time, but it ALWAYS works and sounds great. And you'll see this done in most exemplar bop lines in method books etc.

Don't overdo Am, BTW. Start by resolving to a triad tone A C E, and then after you get handy with that, introduce the 9th (B), 6th (F#) and major 7th (G#). ("Don't ever play no minor 7th. That ain't no minor." Barry Harris....)

**Babaluma** · 08-12-2018, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Was that post for me or Babaluma? For him, I think.

He probably knows the 3-in-1 trick, tritones and chromaticism, so that was good enough.

Sure, Bm7b5 can be Dm can be F can be Am. Also F#5. F/B is good too.

E7 can be dim can be Bb7 can be Fm can be G7 can be... etc

CM7 can be Em can be Am can be #11 can be... etc

We still don't know if this is just for chords or lines as well. I suspect chords. Also, is this just hypothetical or is he actually playing something?

But, to repeat for him, voice leading is supremely important. It's all got to connect properly.

This is very helpful, the 3 in 1 minor7b5 chord is amazing! Do you have any other chords you can suggest which are like this? Also what is the term for a chord like this which can be used in several ways? Cheers

**joe2758** · 08-12-2018, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Babaluma

Also what is the term for a chord like this which can be used in several ways? Cheers

any of ‘em!

**ragman1** · 08-12-2018, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Babaluma

This is very helpful, the 3 in 1 minor7b5 chord is amazing! Do you have any other chords you can suggest which are like this? Also what is the term for a chord like this which can be used in several ways? Cheers

Offhand, the only ones I can think of are a diminished chord and a rootless 7b9, like FBDAb, which is F, B, D or Ab diminished and G7b9 without the G root.

Also the tritone of any 7b5 chord contains the same notes. C7b5 is CEGbBb and Gb7b5 is GbBbCE - same notes, different order.

Also, vaguely, there's a relationship between a 13b5b9 and an 7#9.

And so on. I'm sure there are countless examples and doubtless the theorists will be along with all sorts of other things which I can't think of at the moment. I mean, take a G7#5 - FBD#G - and it could be an F9b5 without the 3rd... you could go on like that for ages, I suspect.

What I think makes the m7b5/m6/9 special is that all those chords are in the same key (Bm7b5, Dm6, G9). That's slightly different from a combination of notes spelling out other chords that could be in any key.

As for a technical term for two or more chords with shared notes, I've no idea. Which doesn't mean there isn't one.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 08-12-2018, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

What I think makes the m7b5/m6/9 special is that all those chords are in the same key (Bm7b5, Dm6, G9). That's slightly different from a combination of notes spelling out other chords that could be in any key.

Yeah it's a diatonic thirds relationship, like Cmaj7, Em7, Am7, accept that in THAT one the chords share the same FUNCTIONAL relationship as well. To me, what makes the former example with the G9 more interesting is that all three chords can have very different functional relationships. Tonic subdominant or dominant. Sub from each other etc.

Of course you can do the same for other scale degrees of major/minor, but the cross functional relationships and the tritone make that one a little different.

**ragman1** · 08-13-2018, 05:21 AM

Well, I was going to emphasise it's all about function rather than 'chord names' but it was covered in one of the links. Possibly by yourself :-)

**ragman1** · 08-13-2018, 05:27 AM

Ah, there you are. Great, it's so nice when someone replies! No problem. I still don't know if there's a technical term for it, though. Never mind

**M-ster** · 08-13-2018, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Babaluma

... Are there any interesting substitutions you could use to add interest or reharmonize when playing in minor key ... ?

It's a cheap thrill, but I like hearing/using V7 with (natural) 13 and b9 -- G7(13)(b9) in C minor. (I think I'm answering the original question without pontificating ... !)