Interesting chord substitution I found

**Babaluma** · 08-07-2018, 02:43 PM

I was playing an old Parliament song "Funkin' for Fun" and was intrigued by the unusual chord progression. It seems to be Am7 to Abaug. Just two chords. I was interested to know where the Abaug came from?

I thought initially it was using the Abmaj7#5 chord from C Harmonic Major (relative Major of Am). Then I thought it could be treating the Abaug as an altered chord taken from A Melodic Minor, albeit an altered chord with just a root, major third and #5, although the idea of a root, dominant progression doesn't make sense if it is missing a b7th? I suppose you could also say F major is the IV of C and we do a IV minor change to Fm and then take the Abaug from F melodic or harmonic minor?

Finally I am thinking Abaug is actually Caug as they are the same chord just an inversion. With the A minor the VI chord of C major.

I know it is not a jazz song but I found it interesting to go through this convoluted thought process on such a simple song!

Do any of my thought processes make sense or is there a super simple explanation I am missing?

**joe2758** · 08-07-2018, 02:49 PM

seems like it just comes from the dominant whole tone scale. An "E" whole tone scale

**christianm77** · 08-07-2018, 03:57 PM

(There's no actual brick wall between jazz harmony and the harmony of normal person music.)

Anyway, that's G# aug to you sunshine, and it's a flippin V+ chord in A minor, in first inversion, but because it's an AUGMENTED chord it's a SYMMETRICAL STRUCTURE so doesn't make any FAAAKIN difference. That is G#+ = E+/G#.

E G# C (from A harmonic minor - that's a proper scale invented by people in wigs, not some scale some long haired layabout stoned hippy at Berklee invented because he ran out of ways to complicate jazz theory.)

WHAT ARE THEY TEACHING THEM???? HARMONIC MAJOR?? DON'T MAKE ME LAAAAAAFFF

Hope that helps :-)

**joe2758** · 08-07-2018, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

(There's no actual brick wall between jazz harmony and the harmony of normal person music.)

Anyway, that's G# aug to you sunshine, and it's a flippin V+ chord in A minor, in first inversion, but because it's an AUGMENTED chord it's a SYMMETRICAL STRUCTURE so doesn't make any FAAAKIN difference. That is G#+ = E+/G#.

E G# C (from A harmonic minor - that's a proper scale invented by people in wigs, not some scale some long haired layabout stoned hippy at Berklee invented because he ran out of ways to complicate jazz theory.)

WHAT ARE THEY TEACHING THEM???? HARMONIC MAJOR?? DON'T MAKE ME LAAAAAAFFF

Hope that helps :-)

r u mad at me

**christianm77** · 08-07-2018, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

r u mad at me

RAGIN'!

(Re: your post - whole tone is a good shout for a soloing option over both chords, thinking Wes here, but I think the parenting of those chords is a simpler matter.....)

**Boston Joe** · 08-07-2018, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

(There's no actual brick wall between jazz harmony and the harmony of normal person music.)

How DARE you insinuate that we have anything in common with normal people!

**joe2758** · 08-07-2018, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

(Re: your post - whole tone is a good shout for a soloing option over both chords, thinking Wes here, but I think the parenting of those chords is a simpler matter.....)

but whole tone scales are man and woman!!

**christianm77** · 08-07-2018, 05:08 PM

Haha very good....

**matt.guitarteacher** · 08-07-2018, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Anyway, that's G# aug to you sunshine, and it's a flippin V+ chord in A minor, in first inversion, but because it's an AUGMENTED chord it's a SYMMETRICAL STRUCTURE so doesn't make any FAAAKIN difference. That is G#+ = E+/G#.

I agree 100% with what I think you've IMPLYING, but not as much with what MIGHT wrongly be inferred from it. "It doesn't matter" can be taken a couple of different ways. :-)

Anyway, I think it's important with any confusion re symmetrical scales or chords to immediately begin looking at its analogues, inversions, enharmonies etc. These questions will begin to answer themselves that way. I also agree with your notion of beginning with functional. Melodic minor and symmetrical are best understood as sub relationships I'd think.

**christianm77** · 08-07-2018, 06:19 PM

I haven't a scooby what you are on about, squire.

**wolflen** · 08-07-2018, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

I agree 100% with what I think you've IMPLYING, but not as much with what MIGHT wrongly be inferred from it. "It doesn't matter" can be taken a couple of different ways. :-)

Anyway, I think it's important with any confusion re symmetrical scales or chords to immediately begin looking at its analogues, inversions, enharmonies etc. These questions will begin to answer themselves that way. I also agree with your notion of beginning with functional. Melodic minor and symmetrical are best understood as sub relationships I'd think.

not to take anything away from the Parliaments..George is so cool..I see it as Ami to E7#5 the(Ab, C and E augmented scale(S) have E7#5 implied

agree with you matt..for me this is the most direct way to see it

**pauln** · 08-07-2018, 07:49 PM

Not "Am7 -> Abaug"... the intro is Am -> Eaug/Ab, repeats four times.

Then Am -> Eaug/Ab -> Am/G -> D9/F# repeats three times.
(This is the "Stairway" intro; this tune's intro above is coming from those first two chords)

Then D9 -> "*"/D four times... nice move!
(The "*" may be considered B7 or D#dim... just get that D# over the D)

Then to E7... another nice move!

**ragman1** · 08-07-2018, 08:14 PM

Blimey, whattalotta fuss about nothing. It's just the good old descending cliche Am-AmM7-Am7, played xx7555-xx6554-xx5553.

The intro's just the first two chords repeated (ish) and a wholetone line over the aug chord.

**joe2758** · 08-07-2018, 08:22 PM

i can't stop my feet!!!

**ragman1** · 08-07-2018, 08:38 PM

You can get cream for that

**Babaluma** · 08-08-2018, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

(There's no actual brick wall between jazz harmony and the harmony of normal person music.)

Anyway, that's G# aug to you sunshine, and it's a flippin V+ chord in A minor, in first inversion, but because it's an AUGMENTED chord it's a SYMMETRICAL STRUCTURE so doesn't make any FAAAKIN difference. That is G#+ = E+/G#.

E G# C (from A harmonic minor - that's a proper scale invented by people in wigs, not some scale some long haired layabout stoned hippy at Berklee invented because he ran out of ways to complicate jazz theory.)

WHAT ARE THEY TEACHING THEM???? HARMONIC MAJOR?? DON'T MAKE ME LAAAAAAFFF

Hope that helps :-)

You post made me laugh a lot, I knew it was something obvious!!!! Thanks

**Babaluma** · 08-08-2018, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Blimey, whattalotta fuss about nothing. It's just the good old descending cliche Am-AmM7-Am7, played xx7555-xx6554-xx5553.

The intro's just the first two chords repeated (ish) and a wholetone line over the aug chord.

Didn't think of it being a mM7, again an obvious thing thanks!

**christianm77** · 08-08-2018, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by Babaluma

Didn't think of it being a mM7, again an obvious thing thanks!

Yeah that’s a great move, playing the aug over the minor.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 08-08-2018, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by djg

i think it would be really helpful to use commonly accepted language and terms. the term "sub relationship" does not exist outside the realm of this forum. at least not in regard to music as a quick google search reveals. you might learn a thing or two about bdsm though...

Sure. What terminology would you use?

I don't claim to be an expert. It is confusing that in conversations about "Where does this harmony come from?" we get answers about "what might you play over this harmony?" etc. They are somewhat different. I don't think the harmony "comes from" Ab whole tone necessarily. I'd be curious to know the way players talk about it...

**matt.guitarteacher** · 08-08-2018, 09:45 AM

Also to the OP, Google "CESH" - chromatic embellishment of static harmony. The previously mentioned stairway bit is one example. Anyway it usually implies dominant from minor, regardless of bass note etc.

Am, AmM7, Am7 implies Am, E7+, Am tonic-dominant etc. Chord symbols are often spelled from the bass note, confusing functional understanding, especially symmetrical ones, like diminished and augmented.

Learn to spell chords from all scale degrees of harmonic and melodic minor for starters, and you'll start to see these more automatically without analyzing so much.

**christianm77** · 08-08-2018, 01:09 PM

Had a nice F aug line on a Bbm chord in Barry’s class today

**Babaluma** · 08-08-2018, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Also to the OP, Google "CESH" - chromatic embellishment of static harmony. The previously mentioned stairway bit is one example. Anyway it usually implies dominant from minor, regardless of bass note etc.

Am, AmM7, Am7 implies Am, E7+, Am tonic-dominant etc. Chord symbols are often spelled from the bass note, confusing functional understanding, especially symmetrical ones, like diminished and augmented.

Learn to spell chords from all scale degrees of harmonic and melodic minor for starters, and you'll start to see these more automatically without analyzing so much.

Thanks very much I will check CESH out cheers.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 08-09-2018, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by djg

the chord comes from the key of Am, as chris has pointed out. we only know that because of the cliche bassline that comes later. otherwise it could just be a II-V in G, Am7/G to D7#11/F#, the typical funk cliche.

the only somewhat interesting thing here is the fact that the chord is an aug E chord (third in the bass) with a nat9 and not a b9b13. the F# could be analysed as being borrowed from Am6 in a BH fashion, or even from melodic minor if you must. a good examination of the inversions of augmented dom chords will be helpful. in this case the group E7+ - Ab7+ - C7+. is that what you meant by sub relationships?

the only reason i need to know where something "comes from" is to figure out what i can play over it. the takeaway is that E9+ is an inside sound over the tonic Am. that opens a lot of doors.

some good places to study this ideas:

-wes montgomery likes to play augmented chords over a static minor chord. this can be a good introduction to playing slightly outside and getting used to these sounds. Gb wholetone scale over Gm in "four on six", Bb wholetone over Bm7 E7#11 in "west coast blues". augmented triad up or down in wholesteps is a wes trademark. function trumps harmony and symmetry trumps function.

-peter bernstein likes to play the augmented V chord over I minor a *lot*. it's his most used device.

-bergonzi, farrell. for a more structured, pattern-based approach, heavily based on melodic minor

i know you're not a big fan of my concept of approaching music via the inductive method. but right here you have a mini progression of just two chords which can teach you 1000 things you need to know about harmony and how to apply it on the bandstand. if you know how to extrapolate.

Okay. Cool. If there's one thing I'm an expert at , it's knowing the things which confused me the most when I started with all of this, not that long ago actually.

"What is this and whaty play over it?" Is one of those things which was very often confusing. There's the melodic soloing part , and then there's the basic harmony /theory part of it.

One of the items towards the top of my list of "Things I wish I knew several years ago" is that it's really helpful to understand the functional basis of the answers to the "what do you play over this?" questions. from what I see in jazz pedagogy, basically priorities for understanding harmony versus the "what to play?" parts are somewhat in conflict.

I may be wrong, but the closest thing to something like consensus for prioritizing scale knowledge for jazz seems to be something like: major, melodic minor, symmetrical scales, harmonic minor. People can argue about the order . I don't care. That's just my guess in terms of actually the things you're taught to PLAY. Harmonic minor is towards the bottom in terms of practical PLAYING application for many folks to talk about the stuff. Probably the opposite for people that are looking for more bebop approach etc I'm sure.

Anyway, if you're looking for a more FUNCTIONAL understanding of harmony, priorities are probably more like: major, harmonic minor , melodic minor , and then application of symmetrical etc? Again, I don't know, But when I first got on the forums are started looking at other peoples approaches, harmonic minor , takes a backseat in terms of playing approaches.

In terms of "sub approaches", that was just my one-off use of the term to describe the "what you play" aspect of things like F melodic minor over an A minor chord or Ab Aug scale etc. That whole "what the heck does F melodic minor or Ab+ have to do with an A minor chord?" part was a big problem for me in the beginning.

I wish that people had emphasized the importance of understanding functional harmony as the basis ...and that the other scales are a different LAYER for implying those functions. I don't know what you call that other layer. "Subs" are certainly acceptable if you're talking about chords. I don't how that works for scales etc. Ab Aug... scale or chord... I would consider a "sub". Maybe adding the word "relationship" is confusing? I don't know.

Anyway, to be fair, Reg always talked about the importance of knowing that "the 3 minors" from the beginning. It really isn't a shortcut in the long run to skip any of that. Heard a lot of conflicting things on this for a long time. A lot of people discount learning these basics vs "just playing tunes" etc. Of course, you need both. One supports the other.