The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Thought you guys might be interested in one of the melodic triads etudes I recently put out aiming at getting into a more pianistic approach to harmony on the fretboard for comping, chord melody, solo guitar, and guitar trio... in the style of Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock, Keith Jarrett, Brad Mehldau, etc

    The etude is using the chord progression from Wayne Shorter's tune, 'Infant Eyes'.

    I also wrote it out in soundslice, so you can read along with the tab and notation in real time and slow down the trickier sections. You can check that out at Creating Pianistic Harmony on the Fretboard - Wayne Shorter | Soundslice




    Would love to know what you think.
    j

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  3. #2

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    Will look at this when I get the chance

  4. #3

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    BTW one thing I’ve been finding quadrads very useful for recently is modal stuff. There’s something about concentrating on an interesting triad plus a tension note that really cleans out my playing and opens things up rhythmically.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    BTW one thing I’ve been finding quadrads very useful for recently is modal stuff. There’s something about concentrating on an interesting triad plus a tension note that really cleans out my playing and opens things up rhythmically.
    You're absolutely right Christian. It de-clutters everything and gets our phrasing right into very clear and precise melody. It's powerful.

    Check out Miles' solo on So What. He "uses" melodic triads all over. He lays into the Tb7 several times, pretty hardcore. Sometimes just arpeggiating the triad, but other times using our melodic tension notes. It's a pretty great and clear example of the melodic applications of our ideas. Specifically in the modal context like you're talking about.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    BTW one thing I’ve been finding quadrads very useful for recently is modal stuff. There’s something about concentrating on an interesting triad plus a tension note that really cleans out my playing and opens things up rhythmically.
    Christian or Jordan,

    Might you be kind enough to give a couple of examples?

    Say it's a long stretch of Dm. Which triads and which tensions might you use in that simple situation?

    Thanks,

    Rick

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Christian or Jordan,

    Might you be kind enough to give a couple of examples?

    Say it's a long stretch of Dm. Which triads and which tensions might you use in that simple situation?

    Thanks,

    Rick
    Uhm... the short answer? There's a lot. But start with D minor until you own it.

    The actual answer... if we're talking about over a Dmin chord...

    -We have our basic, diatonic, "in" type of triads - (Dminor, F major, A minor, C major, G major, etc)

    -We have non pure D minor options... Like DminMaj or something like that (A major triad, E major triad, C# major, etc)

    -Plus we also have any "proper" dominant/diminished tonality that we can superimpose over it (meaning any triad that works for A7, Eb7, C7, or any of the proper diminished chords)

    -Plus any of the triads that function well against any outside sounding chord sub that still works (like maybe BbMaj7#11 or Bbmin or AbMaj#11)

    -Plus we can just superimpose chord progressions and movement (random or otherwise... ii V .... cycles... chromatic... etc)


    And with any of these melodic triad options... we can ultimately apply any tension notes we want. But in order to create melody using tension and resolution points while still remaining respectful to whatever harmonic context we're creating, I tend to prefer practicing the primary tension notes... and a little bit of the secondary tension note... and then if we get in REALLY deep... we can add a 3rd tension note which yields a tension triad... so all the triad options I've mentioned actually imply another triad that works in conjunction with it.

    So that's the long story. Literally anything is possible. We can phrase in a way to create ANY note to feel like a resolution point or a tension point.

    But all of that said... it's important to remember that this kind of stuff is just theory and ideas and all bs. What's most important is getting in, starting simple, and putting in the work with the fundamentals to take the theory and get it into the ear and the fingers. If I was working with a student who was struggling to make simple music with a D minor triad with a tension 2 over a Dminor chord... I would never waste their time by asking them to experiment working with any of these other options. It's gotta start with the basics... and then build outwards.

    Again, like I said to Christian... look at the way Miles played over So What. So simple, tasty, and elegant. You'll see TONS of phrases that are more or less just a D minor triad with a tension note or 2. And sometimes he drops into a C major triad. And it's cool, if you listen for it... you can really hear the tonal shift when he changes to the other melodic triad. It's like the color of the entire painting alters.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Uhm... the short answer? There's a lot. But start with D minor until you own it.

    The actual answer... if we're talking about over a Dmin chord...

    -And with any of these melodic triad options... we can ultimately apply any tension notes we want. But in order to create melody using tension and resolution points while still remaining respectful to whatever harmonic context we're creating, I tend to prefer practicing the primary tension notes... and a little bit of the secondary tension note...
    Thanks for taking the time and trouble to respond!

    I may not have all the background necessary. Do I correctly understand that "primary tensions" are those notes which you would find in the associated 13th chord? In this case, if I begin with D F A, the primary tensions would be C E G and maybe B?

    Then, the "secondary tensions" would be everything else? Or do you count the major 3 and b9 as "secondary tensions" as opposed to calling them avoid notes or something similar?

    So, a simple way to begin is to take D F A and add G (or would you suggest E?). Then maybe F A C and add G or maybe Bb?

    Then, to add in the minor/major sound (based on C#) you could pick A C# E and add a tension ... are you thinking a note from Dm13 or A13 or Amaj13?

    And, the underlying logic is that the triad is a cohesive harmonic structure which allows things to sound "graspable" for want of a better word -- and then adding one tension at a time alters the sound without resulting in something so cluttered that it loses its character?

    It's pretty different from the way I usually approach soloing, but it certainly sounds good in your hands.

    Thanks.

  9. #8

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    this is working without a net...learning and playing set progressions-standards-well known tunes..becomes rudimentary in a musicians journey..

    this kind of tune-and many modal forms-are like a request to travel somewhere without a map..the mechanical route harmonic tools are not set up for this kind of thing..actually chord names may even get in the way..in many cases what you think you are playing may not be what is actually going on in the tune--Gmi7b5 may actually function as an A7b9#5-which opens many new options..breaking down chords into intervals and melodic runs may be far better..its the taking the chance to see if it works--and finding the world does not end of it dosen't..but may surprise you at points and land you in a familiar harmonic neighborhood..a series of major and minor thirds--fifths or fourths..diminished or augmented patterns..that join parts of the harmonic nature of the tune..now you discover how to use some melodic minor theory in the real world..and make it sound musical..and at each step seeing how a simple triad may be used directly or implied in this kind of work

    and then you realize you can hold your breath underwater far longer than you thought..

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    this is working without a net...learning and playing set progressions-standards-well known tunes..becomes rudimentary in a musicians journey..

    this kind of tune-and many modal forms-are like a request to travel somewhere without a map..the mechanical route harmonic tools are not set up for this kind of thing..actually chord names may even get in the way..in many cases what you think you are playing may not be what is actually going on in the tune--Gmi7b5 may actually function as an A7b9#5-which opens many new options..breaking down chords into intervals and melodic runs may be far better..its the taking the chance to see if it works--and finding the world does not end of it dosen't..but may surprise you at points and land you in a familiar harmonic neighborhood..a series of major and minor thirds--fifths or fourths..diminished or augmented patterns..that join parts of the harmonic nature of the tune..now you discover how to use some melodic minor theory in the real world..and make it sound musical..and at each step seeing how a simple triad may be used directly or implied in this kind of work

    and then you realize you can hold your breath underwater far longer than you thought..
    Not sure what you're trying to get at here... and what this is in reference to. The video I posted? My playing in general? The subsequent question regarding playing modal ideas over D minor? Me bringing up So What as part of that answer? Hard to follow what you're trying to say without knowing how it relates to the conversation.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Thanks for taking the time and trouble to respond!

    I may not have all the background necessary. Do I correctly understand that "primary tensions" are those notes which you would find in the associated 13th chord? In this case, if I begin with D F A, the primary tensions would be C E G and maybe B?

    Then, the "secondary tensions" would be everything else? Or do you count the major 3 and b9 as "secondary tensions" as opposed to calling them avoid notes or something similar?

    So, a simple way to begin is to take D F A and add G (or would you suggest E?). Then maybe F A C and add G or maybe Bb?

    Then, to add in the minor/major sound (based on C#) you could pick A C# E and add a tension ... are you thinking a note from Dm13 or A13 or Amaj13?

    And, the underlying logic is that the triad is a cohesive harmonic structure which allows things to sound "graspable" for want of a better word -- and then adding one tension at a time alters the sound without resulting in something so cluttered that it loses its character?

    It's pretty different from the way I usually approach soloing, but it certainly sounds good in your hands.

    Thanks.
    The primary tension note is when I'm looking for ONE ideal tension note to begin exploring a tonality with. So it's purpose is to create tension against the triad, but it also needs to act as the glue that connects the triad back inside the harmony itself. So while the diatonic scale is a related entity... not all the notes of the scale are equal in this regard. For instance, if we were trying to define the sound of an EMaj7 the A note (4th degree of the scale) does not do that for us. This is the sort of CST thing I suppose? The notion that a scale and a chord are the same thing.

    Obviously there's overlap... but there's a varying degree of importance of the notes within the scale. The 3rd and the 7th are of course the two most important notes... so that's often where I would start.

    So for instance, we've mentioned using the C major triad over a D minor chord. The 3rd of D minor is F. F does not already exist in the C triad. So that would be my primary tension note. And if you try this... the F is going to sound and behave like the 4... like a suspended 4 that wants to resolve down to the 3... E... because your ear will hear and interpret the F from the standpoint of the C major triad. Again to go back to So What, if you read along with the transcription and listen to Miles, you'll see him do this exactly.

    So that's the concept of the primary tension note. And it also showcases why I talk so much about melodic tension and resolution. Because what we've effectively done now is "tonicize" the b7, the 9, and the 11 of the Dmin chord... and therefore all of the other "chord tones" are now unstable... they're melodic tension notes. So the root, the 3rd, and the 5 will want to move. The only (that I know of) to learn to hear this is either to spend 10-20 years transcribing, learning tunes, and playing your ass off with the best musicians on the planet... or to sit for 15 minutes and goof off with the (C)/4 quadratonic until you realize that the C note sounds like the root note of your "scale" and the F sounds like the 4 even though you're playing over a Dmin7 chord.

    Once you HEAR and EXPERIENCE that shift beyond theory and opinion... then we're getting somewhere and growing as musicians.

    The secondary tension note is the note that I would then add. It's not going to define the D-7 chord as strongly as the primary did, but it's also important. In this case, the 3rd and the 7th are super important harmonically. We just added the F note in, so next up is the 7th. But hey... the 7th is C, and that's already in the C triad... so that doesn't work. Next is the 5th. The A note. If we add A against the C triad, that's tension 6. So while it's the 5th of the chord, and while it SHOULD be a stable note... you'll actually find that it sounds and behaves like the 6th of a scale and wants to either jump up to the C note above or wants to pull down to the 5th of the triad.

    We can use these two quadratonics separately if we want (to practice or to play) or we can combine them and we have a pentatonic scale. We can also add another tension note if we want. This would yield another triad. So we would have our melodic triad (stable) and a tension triad... so we get a triad pair... but one triad wants to pull to the other. We could add a 4th tension note if we wanted to and we'd be back at the full scale... but you'd now be able to hear the C note as the "root note" of the melody over the D minor chord. Personally, since starting this type of work... I have yet to find a situation where my ear wanted to go back to the full 7 note scale. It feels to dense and cluttered to me. I'll use chromaticism and enclosures and leading tones into triad notes all over the place... so I'm effectively using all 12 notes at different times... but the sound of a diatonic 7 note scale rarely yields anything of beauty in my ear anymore. Maybe it will again one day. I try and stay open-minded and open-eared

  12. #11

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    I feel the same way about the 7 note scale.

    I spent a lot of time practicing scales. My fingers tend to find those notes (unimpeded by any attempt to make music) under pressure -- generally created by high tempo and loudness preventing me from relaxing during a solo. But, I don't really care for the sound.

    As far as the approach -- one of my reactions is the same as to any post which presents a huge number of individual choices. My experience is that incorporating even one new sound into my playing is arduous. For me, the process is practicing it in isolation, then in tunes, then in different keys, over and over until I can sing the material in my mind and have my fingers find the notes without thought. It's simply overwhelming to be faced with dozens (or hundreds from other posts at times) of potential sounds.

    And, then, after all that work, a solo still has to be, IMO, "forget it and just blow", meaning you have incorporated the sounds or not. I think it's hard to make great music if you're thinking about technical material at the time.

    I'm guessing that your videos introduce the student to this material in a manageable way, or you wouldn't be getting good results. I haven't watched much yet. I'm already unable to make any headway on my list of things to work on. Material is added to the list much faster than I can work on something and cross it off when it is completed.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 08-04-2018 at 12:56 PM.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Not sure what you're trying to get at here... and what this is in reference to. The video I posted? My playing in general? The subsequent question regarding playing modal ideas over D minor? Me bringing up So What as part of that answer? Hard to follow what you're trying to say without knowing how it relates to the conversation.
    yes..too "wordy" sorry..I enjoyed the vid very much..you make the tune move and it does have pianistic feel..Evans..to my ear anyway..

    leaving the written page and exploring is what I was trying to communicate in my post..in a tune like that with a modal feel..both harmonic and melodic ideas spring up..and using triads in unconventional ways brings new life and energy to them..you have some chord runs in there that could be the source of a tune in itself..very tasty..

  14. #13

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    RP, "manageable way" is about the most apt description of Jordan's method that I've seen. Each of his units does one quadratonic, with a tune, and talks about the extended tonality that that quadratonic implies.

    I have the same issue as you in terms of getting the new material that I've learned to come out in my playing. I talked to Jordan about it and he said, basically, "Don't worry about it. Just play." So that's what I'm doing, and I'm finding that after a couple of months of this, some of that triadic language is starting to come out in my playing, so I'd say just work on it, and when you play, just play.

    What I've been doing to supplement my practice is, I've been going through the tunes that my group does, and identifying places where I could use a particular triad that I've been working with. I'll try to hit that sound in practice and (to some degree) in rehearsals as well. On gigs, I try not to think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I feel the same way about the 7 note scale.

    I spent a lot of time practicing scales. My fingers tend to find those notes (unimpeded by any attempt to make music) under pressure -- generally created by high temp and loudness preventing me from relaxing during a solo. But, I don't really care for the sound.

    As far as the approach -- one of my reactions is the same as to any post which presents a huge number of individual choices. My experience is that incorporating even one new sound into my playing is arduous. For me, the process is practicing it in isolation, then in tunes, then in different keys, over and over until I can sing the material in my mind and have my fingers find the notes without thought. It's simply overwhelming to be faced with dozens (or hundreds from other posts at times) of potential sounds.

    And, then, after all that work, a solo still has to be, IMO, "forget it and just blow", meaning you have incorporated the sounds or not. I think it's hard to make great music if you're thinking about technical material at the time.

    I'm guessing that your videos introduce the student to this material in a manageable way, or you wouldn't be getting good results. I haven't watched much yet. I'm already unable to make any headway on my list of things to work on. Material is added to the list much faster than I can work on something and cross it off when it is completed.

  15. #14
    Yeah... I find I personally work best (both as a student of the music and as a teacher) when I can see and understand a big picture to work towards... but then when I'm able to break off the tiniest chunk imaginable and goof around with it until it's so "boring" that I can get playful and use it in tons of ways without much thought. That's what I dig about the melodic triad idea. Sure, I'm ignoring everything else while I'm in one zone... but that allows me to really integrate it in. And then if I do that with 10 different tonalities... all of a sudden there's a huge spectrum of colors and emotions and options available and each one has a place internally for me where I can be playful with it.

    It reminds me of something Wayne Krantz once said in an interview. They were asking him about his Improvisor's OS book. They pointed out there there was a seemingly unending, multi-lifetime amount of knowledge to learn from it and they were looking at it from this negative standpoint of... "There's so much, it'll take you forever to learn all this."

    And Wayne just said something like, "Yeah, but I can also flip open the book and in 5 minutes find a new sound that I've never heard before, fall in love with it, and find a way to get it into my playing."

  16. #15

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    I think that's one of the best posts I've read here, Jordan.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe
    I have the same issue as you in terms of getting the new material that I've learned to come out in my playing. I talked to Jordan about it and he said, basically, "Don't worry about it. Just play." So that's what I'm doing, and I'm finding that after a couple of months of this, some of that triadic language is starting to come out in my playing, so I'd say just work on it, and when you play, just play.
    Everybody has that issue. (I think!)