The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    My understanding is that these chords have I-III-V in that order with nothing dropped. Is that correct?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    They can be in inversions, too. The basic idea is that closed forms don't have any gaps, any chord tone that is skipped over. I think of them as being played on a piano, with no chord tones missing in the fingering.

    For example, C Major:

    x320xx
    xx201x
    xxx010

    They get harder (sometimes impossible) on guitar when you go from triads to various seventh chords.

    G7:

    xx5431
    xx9763 (joking!) <<EDIT: sometimes I finesse that chord using a harmonic: xx[12]463 >>
    etc...

  4. #3
    Close and open harmony - Wikipedia

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  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    My understanding is that these chords have I-III-V in that order with nothing dropped. Is that correct?
    Not to nitpick but when speaking about notes use the Arabic numbers. i.e. 1-3-5

    When speaking of chords use Roman numerals such as the IV or V chords.

    And yes, close voicing in triads are 1-3-5, 3-5-1, or 5-1-3
    Root position, 1st inversion and 2nd inversion.

  6. #5

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    The master of closed voicing chords is jazz guitarist Johnny Smith.

    They were a major part of his unique, immediately identifiable sound!

    Check out some of his recordings and you'll hear what I mean.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    Not to nitpick but when speaking about notes use the Arabic numbers. i.e. 1-3-5

    When speaking of chords use Roman numerals such as the IV or V chords.

    And yes, close voicing in triads are 1-3-5, 3-5-1, or 5-1-3
    Root position, 1st inversion and 2nd inversion.
    It's not nitpicking, its fundamentals, so thanks for that.

    Regarding closed or close, I have a vague memory of it being described as being within one octave, even with voice doubling.

    And along the lines of this definition 9, 11, and 13 are not part of the chord, but are tensions or extensions of a chord, so the one octave rule still works.

    But I like the no skips description too.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    Not to nitpick but when speaking about notes use the Arabic numbers. i.e. 1-3-5

    When speaking of chords use Roman numerals such as the IV or V chords.

    And yes, close voicing in triads are 1-3-5, 3-5-1, or 5-1-3
    Root position, 1st inversion and 2nd inversion.
    Thanks for that... I was really confused by the OP.

    Yeah... triads are generally said to be open or close...

    But technically speaking, an open position triad could be said to be using the drop 2 technique. The drop technique is just a concept used in arranging where you have a chord voicing and need to move one (or multiple notes) down an octave for any number of reasons.

    So it could be argued that that's what an open position triad is... a drop 2. But I've never really heard those two terms be interchanged that way. Generally if it's a triad, we talk about open or not.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Thanks for that... I was really confused by the OP.

    Yeah... triads are generally said to be open or close...

    But technically speaking, an open position triad could be said to be using the drop 2 technique. The drop technique is just a concept used in arranging where you have a chord voicing and need to move one (or multiple notes) down an octave for any number of reasons.

    So it could be argued that that's what an open position triad is... a drop 2. But I've never really heard those two terms be interchanged that way. Generally if it's a triad, we talk about open or not.
    Hmmmm. Drop 2/3/4 don't account for voice doubling do they? A triad can have a doubled voice and still be closed though, correct? And an open voicing can have voice doubling as well, so really doesn't look like a "drop" whatever.

  10. #9

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    I was thinking of this thread when I played this Em chord!

    0xx0x7 E-G-B

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    I was thinking of this thread when I played this Em chord!

    0xx0x7 E-G-B
    Let me qualify my last comment. Close voicing is as its name suggests. The notes are packed into their tightest formation. 1-3-5 must be within a single octave. If you displace the notes across multiple octaves this would make an open voicing.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    Let me qualify my last comment. Close voicing is as its name suggests. The notes are packed into their tightest formation. 1-3-5 must be within a single octave. If you displace the notes across multiple octaves this would make an open voicing.
    Yes, I agree, that's a canonical "open" voicing. It's just that this thread has reminded me it's cool to mix things up.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    I was thinking of this thread when I played this Em chord!

    0xx0x7 E-G-B
    The good old drop 2, double drop 3 triad voicing!
    Love that one

    Have fun playing that voicing, piano players!

  14. #13

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    Yea... generally arranging term as Jordon said.... but expands to Closed being what ever you choose to use as the reference... If it's traditional... structure built in 3rds.... so within an octave up to a 7th chord... and expands as you add tensions.

    There are also guidelines for how to structure the rules... both with intervals organization...and how to locate the open aspects....

    With guitar... there are physical aspects.... how to realize or finger. And also the actual sound.... tight voicings get muddy. Like as mentioned above Johnny Smith.... generally solo or keep his voicings short... almost percussive.

    The organization of how you voice notes has impact on your sound... depending on what your trying to do.... do you want a melody or melodic line to stand out or are the inner lines, chordal voice leading what your after... pretty mechanical technical skills of the instrument.

  15. #14

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    This is mostly to see if I have it straight, and to open up things a little bit, hopefully for the benefit of others.

    For the pianist with a lead sheet, the chord types are indicated above the single clef staff which shows melody line notes. If the pianist is playing a head with a band, or playing alone, or otherwise wants to play the melody with chords, the "go to" mechanism is to employ drop 2.

    The way this works is from the top down. The top note is the melody note, the chord is placed immediately below it, the right hand ring finger (second from the top - AKA "2") is raised off of what would be that note of the chord, and that missing note is played by the thumb (top finger) of the left hand. This does a couple of things:

    - places the melody note on top
    - places a gap between the melody note and the chord below
    - frees the ring finger of the right hand to join the pinky finger in playing the melody line
    - depending on the complexity of the chord, it shifts playing fingers toward the extensions end of the right hand chord
    - likewise, by setting the dropped 2 note as the top of the left hand, a similar up shift occurs
    - both shifts (inversions) naturally help avoid putting roots on the bottom

    Drop 3 and 4 are similar, used when the melody line is self harmonized (double stops and triad stabs for guitarists) or to increase the separation of the single note melody from the chord below, or to invoke additional voicing in the chords below.

    I guess drop 1 would mean playing chords avoiding a melody note altogether, maybe good for comping.

    For the guitarist, the the drop numbers mean notes, not fingers... the pianist lifts his right ring finger to play drop 2, but the guitarist's fingers don't live in the linear space of those of the pianist. Typical guitar chords routinely tend to have missing tones, so I suspect a lot of drop 2 on the guitar is really "in the spirit" of drop 2... just the top of the chord in strict compliance.

    Ultimately, both pianist and guitarist approach these things conceptually rather than mechanically... glancing at the lead sheet, hearing the music, and instinctively feeling their fingers desire to take those positions.

  16. #15
    Yeah. It's pretty easy to get confused about the importance of drop 2 etc and what the purpose is in understanding them etc. From what I recall, it has origins in horn arranging etc.

    The reason we talk about drop 2 and drop 3 with guitar so much is that they just lay out well on the instrument. Root position drop two and drop three chords are the fundamental beginner chords which all jazz guitarists learn from books or lessons, before they know anything about this terminology. The thing is, you really don't need to know the terminology, UNTIL you need to know it anyway, but basically they work on guitar in a way that close-voice 4-note chords just DON'T.

    I think too many guitarists learn about them without really having an idea of WHY they should be learning them in the first place. Among other things, they become especially important when you're trying to systematically work through inversions of chords. At that point, it may be really helpful to not be dropping notes so arbitrarily etc, and you basically HAVE to drop SOMETHING on guitar, because of physical limitations.

    Anyway, I don't think that guitarist were using this terminology very much 20 or 30 years ago . They were mainly working on chord inversions by taking standard chord grips and simply moving each voice hip the string to the next chord tone above, creating inversions up the neck for study. This basically gives you the same results , even if you don't know what they're called .

    Of course, calling them "drop somethings" doesn't necessarily change anything , except that many people seem to get more confused about how players are "thinking" about dropping voices while playing etc. The real answer is that they mostly AREN'T. They use these things in the PRACTICE ROOM to learn different voicings.

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  17. #16

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    Yes... if we move on... the point of why we use specific voicings. Why do we or you play the voicings of the chord(s).... why do you play the chords you do?

    Probable because they are the only ones you can.

    I'll slip all the BS... when you play chords....
    - Your implying the harmony from the tune
    - Your supporting the melody... just means your top note needs to work with the melody and the voicing also.
    - Your creating a part that also creates the style and feel of the tune.

    Your choice of drop 2 etc... the voicing, the chord you play should have musical organization...

    The verbal name is basically a term which creates a specific sound, a texture, as Pauln said above from the top down.

    When we play jazz.... the traditional organization somewhat gets lost... we don't just play drop 2 etc.

    All style of chords, voicings you learn are just learning tools to teach you how to become aware of how the fretboard works.... your learning how chords can move around.

    Eventually... you become aware of how different intervals within chords create different styles of musical texture.

    Keeping it simple.... you have tension or dissonance and you have relaxed or consonant ... tension and release. (and between the two)

    These very physical effects are used to create perceptions of movement or rest.

    Closer notes create more tension, open voicings become more at rest.

    Basically the further apart notes are... you can camouflage the tension... and the opposite, right.

    * So the type of voicings you use are a tool... you can physically make very consonant chords have the feel of being dissonant by what type of voicing you use... and the opposite.

    So I understand.... most have trouble just playing cool chords etc... But try and be aware of where your going. The choice of chords, the voicings you play eventually need to have musical organization..... the learning of ... drop 2 chords is not the goal or end result, they are a tool to teach you how to comp, a style of voicing that naturally creates space between the top note and the rest of the voicing. Physically create a sound, texture.

    Eventually your going to be able to have a note on top, (a lead note)
    A Voicing below and a bass note

    Generally the top note is most important, then the bottom... then the middle notes. ( the middle and bottom can become one )

  18. #17

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    Are close voicings called shell voicings too?

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterLutherMan
    Are close voicings called shell voicings too?
    No. They are not the same thing. Typically (but not always) shell voicings on guitar are drop 2 voicings (which are open, not closed) or closed voicings with the root or 5th then removed from the voicing.
    For example a C7 with the bass note C on the 5th string would have the Bb above it on the third string and the E above that on the 2nd string. The G note that would usually be played on the 4th string would be left out. This is a shell voicing.
    A closer voicing that is also considered a shell voicing would be C on the 5th string, E on the 4th string and Bb on the 3rd string. The G note is still missing from the voicing.
    Last edited by setemupjoe; 08-28-2018 at 10:47 AM.

  20. #19

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    It helps to visualize open and closed chords on the keyboard. Aimee Nolte has a nice demonstration. I watched it double speed. :-)

  21. #20
    Isn't the "open/closed" terminology more to do with triads? I would think arrangers would be talking more about specific voicings for 4-note chords or more, like "drop 2" etc.

    I mean, otherwise, anything which isn't a close voicing is "open"? I mean, how is that even helpful or informative? I just don't think people talk that way about 4-note chords. at least I've never heard it that way as much.

    I think we're talking about classical TRIAD terminology maybe? I would love for someone who really talks this stuff with arrangers regularly to chime in and settle this for me. I don't know exactly, but my gut tells me that most of the way we're talking about this is a waste of time. I don't know that it has any real-world purpose.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Isn't the "open/closed" terminology more to do with triads? I would think arrangers would be talking more about specific voicings for 4-note chords or more, like "drop 2" etc.

    I mean, otherwise, anything which isn't a close voicing is "open"? I mean, how is that even helpful or informative? I just don't think people talk that way about 4-note chords. at least I've never heard it that way as much.

    I think we're talking about classical TRIAD terminology maybe? I would love for someone who really talks this stuff with arrangers regularly to chime in and settle this for me. I don't know exactly, but my gut tells me that most of the way we're talking about this is a waste of time. I don't know that it has any real-world purpose.
    Do you play the piano? And do you arrange? Close voicings are alive and well even for big voicings.

    I think that your questions/points are on point for the guitar, but the guitar is a limited domain.

    I would like to recommend to any/all an excellent Arranging book - "Jazz Composition and Arranging in The Digital Age" by Richard Sussman and Michael Abene.

    Jazz Composition and Arranging in the Digital Age: Richard Sussman, Michael Abene: 9780195381009: Amazon.com: Books

  23. #22

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    Regs' post is mostly spot on...this is beyond guitar now..its music..as chords can be viewed as "frozen voices" even for mere seconds or less..it is the movement of the voices that keeps us interested-as to see what it does..how it contorts itself in wide waves or very tight circles..

    learning chord forms in and of themselves is mostly boring and until we can integrate them in muscle memory and have found how to use them in various ways and in more than one key..they become something more to avoid than use in a performance setting..

    then seeing the chord-drop 2/open/closed- as a melodic instrument and how to arrange the voices so the melody note is on top is a separate study..that takes a good deal of practice to be comfortable with...watching joe pass and others play a series of chord forms that spell out a specific melody and later if asked "..what chords did you use?.." they may hesitate to answer as the tune is so "automatic" in their playing .. but of course they do know what they did..and with a little thought can reel off the chord types and even some theory as to why they chose that chord..and many today use the term "implied" chord..as it has a direct or even indirect/remote relation to a chord being played..Howard Roberts used some examples of this in his chord melody book..

    getting the melody to be the main note and deciding which notes to leave out of a chord and still have a harmonic foundation for the melody takes a good deal of work..and the variations to accomplish this task increase the more we know about harmonic movement ... creating this using wide intervals is a challenge as you will need to literally create voicings..and fingerings..not so much of thinking in chord terms but just the voicing and their movement .. watching a classical guitarist play Bach demonstrates this .. Pat Martino has some UTubes..of his own work that applies this type of thinking..

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Do you play the piano? And do you arrange? Close voicings are alive and well even for big voicings.
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    Did you mean to say "open voicings"?

    "Close voicing" at least describes something specific. I wasn't really talking about that. I was talking about referring to something like drop 2 or drop 4 as being an "open voicings". I'd tend to think that an open voiced chord doesn't have just ONE "open"interval.

    I mean, 7th chords in drop 2 are more close voicing than open?

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Did you mean to say "open voicings"?

    "Close voicing" at least describes something specific. I wasn't really talking about that. I was talking about referring to something like drop 2 or drop 4 as being an "open voicings". I'd tend to think that an open voiced chord doesn't have just ONE "open"interval.

    I mean, 7th chords in drop 2 are more close voicing than open?
    Nope, I meant closed. See posts #6 and #10. No skips when stacking the chord. All tones placed as close as possible. Triad or sevenths chords will be within one octave. Chords with tensions will span an octave but voices will still be as close as possible.

    Think about a close position Maj7 chord on the guitar. Kind of a pain. Then Dom7 - worse, Mi7 - worse, Mi7b5 - worse, Dim7 - bordering on the impossible.

    Then do that on the keyboard with your left hand. It gets easier as opposed to more difficult as you go through that same sequence.

    Arranging for big band - may have multiple sections playing closed voicings.

  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Nope, I meant closed. See posts #6 and #10. No skips when stacking the chord. All tones placed as close as possible. Triad or sevenths chords will be within one octave. Chords with tensions will span an octave but voices will still be as close as possible.

    Think about a close position Maj7 chord on the guitar. Kind of a pain. Then Dom7 - worse, Mi7 - worse, Mi7b5 - worse, Dim7 - bordering on the impossible.

    Then do that on the keyboard with your left hand. It gets easier as opposed to more difficult as you go through that same sequence.

    Arranging for big band - may have multiple sections playing closed voicings.
    Right. My point is that I wasn't talking really talking about close voicings as much as using that open/close terminology to describe things like drop2. Not saying that people don't use "close"on other contexts.

    But I don't think of a drop 2 as being an "open" or "close" voicing.