What chords do you use to replace the IV in a standard Blues progression

[ragman1]

That's okay, thanks for the effort. I'll have a closer look at it later.

[ragman1]

Okay, I've looked at it.

Well, I found that playing it in F in that low position made it sound a bit muddy so I put it up into C, if that's all right with you. Plus, of course, in C it's easier to see what's going on harmonically.

I think I know what you've done. At least, if you knew you were doing it, I assume! To be honest, it's a bit unusual (!).

The C version goes:

C7 - Gsus/Gbsus - C7 - Gsus/Gbsus
Cm6 - Cm7 - C7 - Gø/_C#
C#7b5 - G7#9/Gb7#9 - C7 - G7

Now, a certain amount of sliding back and forth in blues progressions is standard practice and doesn't matter. It makes it more interesting and implies tritones. So that's okay.

What you've got here is a Gsus which is basically still C7. In fact the whole of the top line is C7. Unless you want to imply an F tritone with Gbsus becoming B7, the C7 slid down and back up again. But, essentially, it's all C7.

Then the Cm6 and Cm7. Well, that's not really a real sub for F7, you know. The IV chord is F7 and the Cm is its ii so it's not really a dramatic change. However, it is a sub of sorts. So I've taken that as F7 for those two bars.

Then back to C7 and this Gø with a C# bass. I'm taking that as a sort of mangled C#o dim chord (sorry!) which is standard. Except that it's usually put in bar 6, but what the hell...

Then the C#7b5. Well, that's also a G7b5 (they're interchangeable). So I took that as a G7, with a slide, for two bars, then C7, then the G7 turnaround.

So really it comes out like this:

C7 - C7/B7 - C7 - %
F7 - % - C7 - C#o
G7 - G7/F#7 - C7 - G7

which is all pretty normal really. And that's way I solo-ed over it. I'm just a standard sort of blues player so that's how it sounds. Maybe you did the whole thing with an entirely different feel or rhythm, I don't know. But it wouldn't make an awful lot of difference analytically-wise.

Here's a sound clip. Like this:

1. Your progression chords.
2. Me playing the simplified version over your chords. You can hear how it fits, the sounds don't conflict at all.
3. My noodling over your chords, and it fits okay too.

That's my take on it. Hope it helps.

[chrisb587]

Ragman

Not sure why you've transposed it. Analysing it in C should make no difference. I play in a Latin band with a few jazz blues thrown in - but the jb's would only be in either F or Bflat key to please the sax player and our high flying double bass player. These are the main keys they want you to play in. You just get used to it.

I've played around a lot with Jobim songs, and there's one, Corcovado (also known as Quiet Nights) of interest. In it it starts at Amin6 to Gmin7 (plus a few passing chords aswell) to Fmaj7 - then Fmaj7 Fmin7 Fmin6 to Em to A7#5 to D9 and on. The point is it can't be analysed, just have to accept it sounds right. But the move Fmaj7 to Fmin7 to Fmin6. Why not reverse that ? And with the Blues in Dom7 you've got Fmin6 to Fmin7 to F7. And that sounds really good too.

If you analyse the notes of the iv chord Bflat7 against my suggested replacement Fmin6 - three of their 4 notes D, F, Aflat are common to both chords. They're not third and dom sevenths reversed as in tritone, but you can still substitute Fmin6 for Bflat7. It sounds good. Especially as it's moving back to F7 via Fmin7. The F7 in this case only being in bar7, bar8 is a passing chord to bar9 which is a 5 chord substitute for the C7

I've heard the recording but not sure what to say as it needs to swing and as it has so many changes in it I don't recognise it !

I should have said it's a jazz blues and it needs to swing. Think it does make a difference.


The bars 2 and 4 are | Cmin11 / / Bmin11 | not | Cmin11 / Bmin11 / | as played on the recording

Similarly bar 11 is | C7#9 / / B7#9 |


Really wish I had some recording equipment to get it onto Soundcloud ... maybe that's the next step.

Best

Chris

[joe2758]

[QUOTE=

I've played around a lot with Jobim songs, and there's one, Corcovado (also known as Quiet Nights) of interest. In it it starts at Amin6 to Gmin7 (plus a few passing chords aswell) to Fmaj7 - then Fmaj7 Fmin7 Fmin6 to Em to A7#5 to D9 and on. The point is it can't be analysed, just have to accept it sounds right./QUOTE]
what do you mean by “it can’t be analysed?”

[christianm77]

Corcovado

Key, F

Am6 | Abo7 | Gm7 | C7 | Fo7 F

Am modulating to F using bIII turnaround and common tone diminished embellishment on F

Fm7 | Bb7 | Em | A7 | D7 | % | Dm | G7

IVm bVII7 (backdoor) IIIm7 VI7 II7 (IIm) V7 turnaround

G#o7 ---> Am6
Interupted cadence back to Am6

Second half is more analysable stuff.

[ragman1]

Corcovado

Key, F

Am6 | Abo7 | Gm7/C7 | Fo7 F

D7 - G7 - Gm7/C7 - F

D9/_A - G13b9/_Ab - Gm7/F#7b5 - FM7/F6


Simples

[christianm77]

Yeah it’s reducible to a back cycle, and that’s how I would practice it.

But in practice that turnaround is so common in jazz standards I didn’t really feel the need to reduce it any further.

[christianm77]

Sorry it is D9/A in the real book chart Also G13b9/Ab is a correct if longwinded way of writing an Abo7 chord with an E melody note, anyway....

That’s all a bit OT and doesn’t alter the fact that this Jobim tune is analysable.

[ragman1]

That was my point.

[Vladan]

Get that solo done!
Thank you for not showing horrible ugly face

Not really a solo ... forcing same lines over different changes ...

Changes: Standard, Parker, mine

Lines: simple melody, some noodling, first chorus of Parker's solo for Billies Bounce

[ragman1]

Oh, very good! Nice 'n rocky. I enjoyed that.

Now it needs an Italian video :-)

[Vladan]

Oh, very good! Nice 'n rocky. I enjoyed that.

Now it needs an Italian video :-)

Yes, I still have lot's of unpublished footage from Italy, plus 3 years of everyday driving and trips to Montenegro ... one or two Italy videos I have ready, just waiting for some music, but there's no music ... Oddly enough, just today I got 2 calls for jamming/ recording, maybe I will be able to use that, unless "leaders" get overprotective over property, intellectual ...

Also, unfortunately, my main laptop PC is dead for months already. I do not have enough time and passion to do it at the office, old XP desktop I fire up only for occasional audio mixing, like this 3x3 experiment. I took daughter's ACER 2 in 1 Tablet/ Laptop, but that screen is tiny, I hardly edited that clip above, not to mention copying audio file from XP to tablet ...