What chords do you use to replace the IV in a standard Blues progression

**wolflen** · 08-17-2018, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

As this has come up again I've concocted this. It works, but it's a devil to solo over... convincingly, that is.

G7 - Cm7/F7 - Bb7 - Eb7
Ab7 - Abm7/Db7 - Gb7/F7 - E7
Am7 - D7 - G7/Bb7 - A7/Ab7 - (G7)

Anyone like to try it?

(I don't think it suits my style. Probably needs a bit of bebop and a good tune).

Charlie Parker "ruined" the blues for many..the term "jazz blues" can be far away from a basic blues .. I have arguments over Miles' "All Blues" as being a true blues based tune..it is to me..yeah where is the IV7 chord??

My alteration: med swing feel
not going "out" as far as yours but perhaps in the same realm

1-4 |G13 - Bb13
// //

5-6| Eb9 - C9

7-8| G13 -Bb13

9| F9 - D9
/ /
10| Eb9 - C9
/ /
11-12| G13 Bb13 A13 Ab13
// // // //

**christianm77** · 08-19-2018, 04:50 PM

I like Dance of the Infidels, Bud Powell. Rag's changes reminded me of a step out from that progression.

I obviously wouldn't agree that Bird 'destroyed' the blues, and I don't for a second think you think that Wolfen lol... I would also question whether there is a big leap from the jazz blues form to Parker blues. The only significant difference is the diversion to relative minor in bar 2-3.

I think Bird's use of the blues scale on IV is pretty characteristic, and something he did on things like Confirmation as well as 12-bar tunes.

And, what do you know? It's a great choice from a jazz perspective on IV, and esp from b5, outlines #IVo7 quite clearly

I don't think Bird tended to use that scale on I - and, here's the thing, many of his lines use a major 7 on the I chord regardless of what the compers are playing there.... Early on often I6 or just I triad, but later on more complex chords...

I mean, blues in jazz is a different proposition for blues blues anyway - the 12 bar form is kind of a jazz concept, no? The folk blues is more fluid, even in a band situation.

I think actually straight up blues concepts like playing minor blues on major changes and 7th chords for tonic chords crept into jazz AFTER bebop. Might be talking shit though, but it seems to me most pre-war jazz blues use major or maj6 chords as I chords, maybe IV7.

Pre war blues sound is the m6 arp on major. What Jordan calls the blue triad (or m/6.) The b7 is not such a common blue note in this era. The b7, to me, is kind of the Blue Note blue note so to speak (see what I did there?)

**christianm77** · 08-19-2018, 05:05 PM

Also, ANOTHER THING! Jazz guitarists, of course, have a vastly inflated idea of their own harmonic importance. Really what the bass plays against the melody is the main thing, and the middle voices are subservient to that. A classic bass line might outline the following:

F F7/A | Bb6 Bo7 | F | F7/A
Bb6 | Bo7 | F/C (C#o7) | D7 |
Gm7 | C7 | F D7 | Gm7 C7 |

Or

F F7/Eb | Bb/D Bbm/Db | F | F/Eb |
Bb6 | Bbm6 | F/A | Abo7 |
Gm7 | C7 | F D7 | Gm7 C7 |

Obviously you could get away with playing far less here than the chart suggests. F7 | Bb7 | F7 | % | would be fine for the first four.

In the second example, the guitar doesn't have to always agree with the bass - sometimes you'll hear players play one over the others in solos and so on. Conventionally, it depends on the song.

Anyway it's a small jump from the second example to Blues for Alice. Just put a D minor ii V in bars 2-3 and you are basically there (melody outlines Abm7 Db7 not Abo7)

Other little variations, to me the turnaround

F G#o7 | Dm | G7 | C7 | F

sounds Churchy

**pingu** · 08-19-2018, 07:48 PM

to the orig question
I just realised ...
I minor

Duh !

**Vladan** · 08-29-2018, 09:02 PM

Here's one simple version:

CMaj7|Cdim7|C9|A7|
Dm7|G7|CMaj7|C#dim7|
Dm7|G7|CMaj7 C#dim7|D9 G7|

**ragman1** · 08-29-2018, 11:34 PM

Looks okay. Are you going to play it for us?

**christianm77** · 08-30-2018, 06:59 AM

I must try playing your changes over a standard blues prog

**ragman1** · 08-30-2018, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I must try playing your changes over a standard blues prog

It works, both for the three chord trick and the standard jazz progression. Not C7 at the beginning, obviously, and the F#o is dodgy because the chord at that point is a G7, but apart from that it's okay. I tried it :-)

Just playing C blues over the whole thing works more or less. Not perfect though.

It works best playing the chords as written, to be honest. The problem is, what with all the M7 - dims and ii-Vs, it can sound more like a 12-bar ballad than a blues.

That's my report. Hope Vladan won't be offended, not my intention of course.

**Vladan** · 08-30-2018, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

It works, both for the three chord trick and the standard jazz progression. Not C7 at the beginning, obviously, and the F#o is dodgy because the chord at that point is a G7, but apart from that it's okay. I tried it :-)

As far as CM7, plain C is always the best, but this is Jazz forum, we are required to start on M7, or else ...

I am not sure what you mean about F#o?
There is only one instance of it, written as Cdim7, in 2nd bar, which in fast change is place for F7.
Other 2 occasions of dim are C#. Both in place of C7.
Or you mean F# half dim, written as D9?

Originally Posted by ragman1

Just playing C blues over the whole thing works more or less. Not perfect though.

You mean chords, or some solo that works over plain blues?

No offense, I put it there for comments.

**ragman1** · 08-30-2018, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I must try playing your changes over a standard blues prog

Sorry, Christian I didn't read your post properly. If you mean playing a solo outlining this over Vladan's chords:

C7 - F7 - C7 - Gm7/C7
F7 - F#o - C7 -A7
Dm7 - G7 - C7/A7 - Dm7/G7

then it does NOT work, regretfully. I was playing it the other way round.

**Vladan** · 08-30-2018, 12:41 PM

And, of course, each G7 and A7 you can follow by Dim7 built on it's 5th.

**ragman1** · 08-30-2018, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Vladan

As far as CM7, plain C is always the best, but this is Jazz forum, we are required to start on M7, or else ...

I am not sure what you mean about F#o?
There is only one instance of it, written as Cdim7, in 2nd bar, which in fast change is place for F7.
Other 2 occasions of dim are C#. Both in place of C7.
Or you mean F# half dim, written as D9?

You mean chords, or some solo that works over plain blues?

No offense, I put it there for comments.

I AM OFFENDED!

just joking

I mean I made a backing of your chords and then played the usual 3 chord blues over it (C7, F7 and G7). Obviously the CM7 didn't work. See my report post.

Then I played the standard jazz blues chords over it (see that progression in the post to Christian above). Again, see report. Bar 6 didn't work (F#o over G7)

Then I tried just using C blues (C minor pentaonic with b5 blue note and major 3rd). That worked more or less.

The best way, as I said, was to play over it as written... but it didn't come out very bluesy.

Like I said, this is your progression. You composed it and presumably you gave it some thought. So I think it behoves you to show us how you think it should work. If you can, that is, because you might not have taken it that far :-)

**christianm77** · 08-30-2018, 01:35 PM

F#o7 on G7 is one of my favourites

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-30-2018, 02:55 PM

Anyone mention this reharm for the first four measures? Go up by whole steps or go down by whole steps. I like going up in one chorus and going down in the next.

|C7 | D7 | E7 | F#7 |
|F7 | etc...

next chorus:
|C7 | Bb7 | Ab7 | Gb7 |
|F7 | etc...

I think the point to this is that the 12 bar blues is so "part of the furniture", you can do whatever you like as long as you check in occasionally.

**joe2758** · 08-30-2018, 03:01 PM

i think i saw that on Frank potenzas true fire course; the descending one

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-30-2018, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

i think i saw that on Frank potenzas true fire course; the descending one

I know I got it from somewhere. Sounds Coltrane-y to me even though he didn't tend to mess around in his blues.

**Vladan** · 08-30-2018, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Vladan -

Okay, here's what I'd do. Bear in mind you're much more rocky than me so this might be a bit 'sweet' for you

So Raggman1, all you needed for your playing to really shine in full, was a good set of changes? I could not hope for better interpretation than this. Sounds pretty bluesy to me.

**Vladan** · 08-30-2018, 07:00 PM

Here's my rhythm guitar, with some variation. It's abruptly cut off because of my ugly face and fact that I played different turnaround.
If I ever record solo, I'll let you know.

**ragman1** · 08-30-2018, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Vladan

Here's my rhythm guitar, with some variation. It's abruptly cut off because of my ugly face and fact that I played different turnaround.
If I ever record solo, I'll let you know.

For god's sake, man, that's 100% good! Much better rhythm than mine.

Get that solo done!

Thank you for not showing horrible ugly face

**Freel** · 08-30-2018, 08:36 PM

Hey guys, really enjoying this thread.

I've got a friend, plays guitar, taught him for a while coming on thirty years ago. He knows one blues box position, he has zero technique for single line playing.

Terrific rhythm guitarist though, not that he ever bothers to learn any standards the lazy tw@t. But I REALLY love to comp for him after a smoke and a drink of an evening. He's got a flow, you know the ideas come to him, he can't deliver them but.... I say 'Stevie sixth fret' and he goes there and hunts.

We walk round the blues for a while and I try all sorts of things out to try and practice comping for him. When we have been playing for a few hours, and for him playing means drinking and for me playing with him means the same, the more I throw him oddball reharms the more his playing makes sense.

Right ain't a patch on good.

D.

**JaxJaxon** · 08-31-2018, 03:19 PM

When i play blues in E i will some times use the G or the 3rd chord instead of the 5th chord B. so you can try useing the 3

**chrisb587** · 09-01-2018, 02:06 AM

You could replace the iv7 chord with a i min6 to i min7 move ...

Ie playng in F7 instead going to Bflat 7 play Fmin6 to Fmin7, continue

back to F7 then try Cmin7b5 / F# bass to F#7flat5 and on to v chord

**ragman1** · 09-01-2018, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by chrisb587

You could replace the iv7 chord with a i min6 to i min7 move ...

Ie playng in F7 instead going to Bflat 7 play Fmin6 to Fmin7, continue

back to F7 then try Cmin7b5 / F# bass to F#7flat5 and on to v chord

Why don't you just write out the progression? That's also three lines, shorter and easier than the ones you wrote, and idiots like me will understand it. Thank you

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 09-01-2018, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Why don't you just write out the progression? That's also three lines, shorter and easier than the ones you wrote, and idiots like me will understand it. Thank you

True -- not that the RagMan's an idiot, just that spelling it out is easier than alluding to it!