The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Newbie working through the Mickey Baker Jazz Guitar book. When I try and fret D13b5b9 using his fingerings, my third finger lays flat across all the strings and mutes everything. Any suggestions for fretting this chord? Or is the an alternate I can learn?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    keep working at it.

    if you need a sub in the meantime use the A7 or A13

  4. #3

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    Joe, do you mean Ab7 or Ab13?

  5. #4

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    Whew! Not asking much, are you?

    The position I figured out (because I don't believe I've played this chord on a guitar) inverts the flatted 9th by, for all intents and purposes, sharpening the root D note to Eb; so, technically it's a flatted 2nd, but it's still the Eb note your looking for.

    So starting on the 5th string (A) and working toward the 1st string (E)

    A string: 6th fret Eb, middle finger) - that's the inverted flatted 9th
    D string: 6th fret Ab, middle finger) - your flatted 5th
    Bar the A & D string 6th fret position with the middle finger

    G string: 5th fret C, index finger - your 7th

    B string: 7th fret F#, ring finger - your major 3rd

    E string: 7th fret B, pinkie - your 13th.

    I can't find a position that allows for the D natural root.

    Fellas?

  6. #5

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    Yes I meant Ab7 or Ab13! they in the book also... they might shown as G7 and g13. sorry about that

  7. #6

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    well uncle vinnie, in my opinion you really want something with Ab in the bass because what he is actually teaching here is the tritone sub

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    well uncle vinnie, in my opinion you really want something with Ab in the bass because what he is actually teaching here is the tritone sub
    To be honest, I've never heard of tri-tone substitutions ... that level of theory is way above me. I was simply trying to come up with a position that included the flatted and extended notes of the chord.

    Boy, do I need my dad to explain this to me.

  9. #8

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    Yeah look at that D13b5b9 it’s really just an Ab#9 chord.

  10. #9

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    Finger-knotting chord...does anyone actually play that fingering?

  11. #10

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    I love this chord and find it all the time in jazz ensemble arrangements. Of course it's your guitar duty to not play the root.

    X34444

    b7-3-13-b9-b5

  12. #11

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    D13b5b9 is R 3 b5 7 b9 13. A theorist might want an 11, but I don't usually include in a 13th.

    So, that's D F# Ab C Eb B. Fine, include the 11th. Put it on a string that you don't have.

    Now, let's start paring it down.

    First, the bassist may have the root, so omit the D.

    What is left looks a lot like Ab7#9, as another poster has pointed out.

    Since somebody took the trouble to specify 13 b5 and b9, I would think about playing Ab Eb and B, which is an Abm triad. Now, the two notes left are C and F#. A pianist might put those in the left hand and play the Abm triad in the right, I suppose. Not so easy to get them on the guitar. I don't have an easy grip to offer. And, the stretchy ones I found didn't sound good.

    So, I start over, thinking about the sound the composer is after. Frankly, I can't be sure without more context. Typically b5 b9 suggests a tritone sub. This one also has the 13, so it looks, as somebody else already pointed out, a tritone with a #9, ie Ab7#9. xx4547 might be good. But, it depends on context. You're going to have to make some compromise, play it on piano, put your left hand on a medieval rack, or leave out some notes.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I love this chord and find it all the time in jazz ensemble arrangements. Of course it's your guitar duty to not play the root.

    X34444

    b7-3-13-b9-b5
    X3444x

    I play but never thought of simply extending the bar to the b5

  14. #13

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    Exercise 2. Micky Baker's fingering omits the root & he uses it as a tritone or 1/2 step sub in a ii V although I don't think he calls it either of those things...

    He suggests you take the ii V up & down the fretboard chromatically...my only suggestion if your 3rd finger's not behaving is to make sure your LH thumb is low enough to enable you to fret the strings with the tip of your fingers....keep practicing....
    Attached Images Attached Images Tips for fretting a D13b5b9?-ii-v-png Tips for fretting a D13b5b9?-d13b5b9-png 

  15. #14

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    That's Ab7#9 then. Useful sub to know.

  16. #15

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    What makes Baker's very difficult to finger D13b9b5 chord worth mastering is when it is followed by his stretchy, second GM7 form which keeps the 1st and 2nd string and moves the other notes down a fret. The combination makes for a lush sound that might work well for intro or ending, though not as well for comping multiple choruses.

    As dot75 suggests, start higher up, around the 8th fret or higher and work your way down.

    Another thing you can try is to use the old standby Dominant 7 voicing. E.g. for A7 5 7 5 6 8 5. When you can play that with your ring finger arched and not collapsing, you just have to flatten the pinky finger. When you can do that, move on to Baker's Major 7 voicing. Again, start on a higher fret.

    A way to get the effect of Baker's voicings is simply forget that 5th and 6th strings. x x 6 5 7 7 --> x x 5 4 7 7. That gives you Ab7--> GM7. (Add a Am7 at the beginning x x 7 9 8 8)

    You could also try 4 6 x 5 7 x --> 3 5 x 4 7 x

    A final option would be to play a D7b9b5, leaving out the 13th. x 5 4 5 4 4. You probably want to play something different for the subsequent GM7. Perhaps a Bm7 or Em7 sub on the 1-4 string set. Or a G 6/9.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by dnauhei
    Newbie working through the Mickey Baker Jazz Guitar book. When I try and fret D13b5b9 using his fingerings, my third finger lays flat across all the strings and mutes everything. Any suggestions for fretting this chord? Or is the an alternate I can learn?
    I have very small hands, limited mobility of middle finger, jammed 1st knuckle of ring finger, etc., etc.. In other words, lot's of problems with fretting hand. However, I can finger this chord. The important thing is to NOT barre with index finger. There's no need to. You only need to finger the 6th string with index finger. The 4th string is not played.

    In my case, because of my small hands, my ring finger conveniently falls over the 4th string and mutes it. If you finger it this way you should also be able to play the maj7 by holding your little finger in place on 1st and 2nd strings and moving i, m, a down a half step.
    Last edited by Jack E Blue; 05-28-2018 at 01:36 PM. Reason: corrected 5th and 6th to 1st and 2nd

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Elliott
    What makes Baker's very difficult to finger D13b9b5 chord worth mastering is when it is followed by his stretchy, second GM7 form which keeps the 1st and 2nd string and moves the other notes down a fret. The combination makes for a lush sound that might work well for intro or ending, though not as well for comping multiple choruses.
    Right on, man, Mickey's voice leading all of the notes on that D dominant chord to the resolution at GMa7, thinking pianistically instead of guitaristically. That's why he added alterations galore. When first discussing that chord out of context I was thinking "why bother?" But then aha! The payoff is in the resolution. He also names that chord functionally rather than literally. It's an Ab dominant, a standard if fancified b5 sub, but it functions as a V7 and so he named it that even though there isn't a Din the chord.

    Also, analyze it as superimposed chords- a pianist could play a D7 in the left hand and Ab7#9 in the right (maybe leaving out the clashing notes, unless he has at least an octave or even two between the two hands), resolving to G major triad or GMa7 in the left hand and Bmin7 in the right for a spread Gmaj9 with some interesting contrary motion resolution. Hard to get on a guitar, but Mickey's move here suggests that.

    Easy to dismiss Mickey's books as obsolete and un-modern, but that's some hip stuff. Also, that's easier to finger cleanly on a wider neck. IIRC seeing pictures of Mickey playing nylon string guitars.

  19. #18

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    I use that chord often and have never found it difficult. I think that's because I'm used to playing rock 'n roll bar chords and that's nothing but a Ab7 with a #9 on top. It's one of those "Hendrix" chords. Your 3rd finger mutes the D string if you arch it just right.

    I also love that big hairy Gmaj7 chord that follows it!
    Last edited by Gilpy; 05-28-2018 at 04:39 PM.

  20. #19

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    [QUOTE=christianm77; X3444x

    I play but never thought of simply extending the bar to the b5[/QUOTE]

    very cool chord..13b9...put a 7#9 before or after it and move that around in minor thirds..jim hall type stuff

    on different string sets gives very different feel to these chords..

    also the 13b9: note moving in half steps voice leading into maj 7/69 flavor chords (3rd in bass) nice offset: crunchy dominant to smooth major

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    very cool chord..13b9...put a 7#9 before or after it and move that around in minor thirds..jim hall type stuff

    on different string sets gives very different feel to these chords..

    also the 13b9: note moving in half steps voice leading into maj 7/69 flavor chords (3rd in bass) nice offset: crunchy dominant to smooth major
    I heard, and saw, Jim Hall at the Keystone Korner in SF years ago and he used that grip a lot. Different applications, as I recall.
    7
    So, x3444x is C F# B Eb can be D13b9 with the bass on D. It's B/C. B7b9, F7#11b9 etc. Versatile group of notes.

  22. #21
    Wow, there is so much to digest in this thread. I had to wait until I had a quiet 1/2 to sit down with my guitar and digest everything. Thank you for the responses. Cosmic Gumbo--I can finger that! I'll give that a try. I've tried some of these suggestions, but I don't think I am every going to be able to finger it Micketys way! Maybe in a year or so ....
    Attached Images Attached Images Tips for fretting a D13b5b9?-20180528_101418-jpg 

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E Blue
    I have very small hands, limited mobility of middle finger, jammed 1st knuckle of ring finger, etc., etc.. In other words, lot's of problems with fretting hand. However, I can finger this chord. The important thing is to NOT barre with index finger. There's no need to. You only need to finger the 6th string with index finger. The 4th string is not played.

    In my case, because of my small hands, my ring finger conveniently falls over the 4th string and mutes it. If you finger it this way you should also be able to play the maj7 by holding your little finger in place on 1st and 2nd strings and moving i, m, a down a half step.
    I have similar left-hand problems, plus Dupuytren's contracture and focal dystonia, which have caused me to abandon quite a few fingerings I've used much of my playing life. Even so, I have no problem playing this chord, although the follow-up GMA7 now takes some concentration.

    The book in question, combined with Mel Bay's Orchestral Chord System For Guitar, has formed about 90% of my jazz guitar playing since the early '60's. I can still get through most of the chordal stuff in it, but everyone is different. I suspect it gave me fits when I first tried it, but after all these years of living with it, it's hard for me to imagine what that was like. All I can say is keep at it, and if that doesn't work, pare it down to what does work for you.

    Danny W.
    Last edited by Danny W.; 05-29-2018 at 08:55 AM.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I heard, and saw, Jim Hall at the Keystone Korner in SF years ago and he used that grip a lot. Different applications, as I recall.
    7
    So, x3444x is C F# B Eb can be D13b9 with the bass on D. It's B/C. B7b9, F7#11b9 etc. Versatile group of notes.
    yes..and of course context is everything in these type of applications-basic triad inversions with offset bass notes..in some of my fusion ventures chord names are dropped .. just the "sound" is played .. ben monder thinking-and playing in several keys at once..

  25. #24

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    It's all Mickey Baker's fault. He's got a damn cheek picturing an Ab7#9 and calling it a D chord. I'm all for keeping our ii-V's intact but really.

    (We used to call it the Mickey Baker comic book, but don't tell anybody)

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Yeah look at that D13b5b9 it’s really just an Ab#9 chord.
    True. When I figured out the fingering that was the chord I heard playing strings 1-4.