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  1. #1

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    Newbie working through the Mickey Baker Jazz Guitar book. When I try and fret D13b5b9 using his fingerings, my third finger lays flat across all the strings and mutes everything. Any suggestions for fretting this chord? Or is the an alternate I can learn?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    keep working at it.

    if you need a sub in the meantime use the A7 or A13

  4. #3

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    Joe, do you mean Ab7 or Ab13?

  5. #4

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    Whew! Not asking much, are you?

    The position I figured out (because I don't believe I've played this chord on a guitar) inverts the flatted 9th by, for all intents and purposes, sharpening the root D note to Eb; so, technically it's a flatted 2nd, but it's still the Eb note your looking for.

    So starting on the 5th string (A) and working toward the 1st string (E)

    A string: 6th fret Eb, middle finger) - that's the inverted flatted 9th
    D string: 6th fret Ab, middle finger) - your flatted 5th
    Bar the A & D string 6th fret position with the middle finger

    G string: 5th fret C, index finger - your 7th

    B string: 7th fret F#, ring finger - your major 3rd

    E string: 7th fret B, pinkie - your 13th.

    I can't find a position that allows for the D natural root.

    Fellas?

  6. #5

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    Yes I meant Ab7 or Ab13! they in the book also... they might shown as G7 and g13. sorry about that

  7. #6

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    well uncle vinnie, in my opinion you really want something with Ab in the bass because what he is actually teaching here is the tritone sub

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    well uncle vinnie, in my opinion you really want something with Ab in the bass because what he is actually teaching here is the tritone sub
    To be honest, I've never heard of tri-tone substitutions ... that level of theory is way above me. I was simply trying to come up with a position that included the flatted and extended notes of the chord.

    Boy, do I need my dad to explain this to me.

  9. #8

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    Yeah look at that D13b5b9 it’s really just an Ab#9 chord.

  10. #9

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    Finger-knotting chord...does anyone actually play that fingering?

  11. #10

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    I love this chord and find it all the time in jazz ensemble arrangements. Of course it's your guitar duty to not play the root.

    X34444

    b7-3-13-b9-b5

  12. #11

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    D13b5b9 is R 3 b5 7 b9 13. A theorist might want an 11, but I don't usually include in a 13th.

    So, that's D F# Ab C Eb B. Fine, include the 11th. Put it on a string that you don't have.

    Now, let's start paring it down.

    First, the bassist may have the root, so omit the D.

    What is left looks a lot like Ab7#9, as another poster has pointed out.

    Since somebody took the trouble to specify 13 b5 and b9, I would think about playing Ab Eb and B, which is an Abm triad. Now, the two notes left are C and F#. A pianist might put those in the left hand and play the Abm triad in the right, I suppose. Not so easy to get them on the guitar. I don't have an easy grip to offer. And, the stretchy ones I found didn't sound good.

    So, I start over, thinking about the sound the composer is after. Frankly, I can't be sure without more context. Typically b5 b9 suggests a tritone sub. This one also has the 13, so it looks, as somebody else already pointed out, a tritone with a #9, ie Ab7#9. xx4547 might be good. But, it depends on context. You're going to have to make some compromise, play it on piano, put your left hand on a medieval rack, or leave out some notes.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I love this chord and find it all the time in jazz ensemble arrangements. Of course it's your guitar duty to not play the root.

    X34444

    b7-3-13-b9-b5
    X3444x

    I play but never thought of simply extending the bar to the b5

  14. #13

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    Exercise 2. Micky Baker's fingering omits the root & he uses it as a tritone or 1/2 step sub in a ii V although I don't think he calls it either of those things...

    He suggests you take the ii V up & down the fretboard chromatically...my only suggestion if your 3rd finger's not behaving is to make sure your LH thumb is low enough to enable you to fret the strings with the tip of your fingers....keep practicing....
    Attached Images Attached Images Tips for fretting a D13b5b9?-ii-v-png Tips for fretting a D13b5b9?-d13b5b9-png 

  15. #14

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    That's Ab7#9 then. Useful sub to know.

  16. #15

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    What makes Baker's very difficult to finger D13b9b5 chord worth mastering is when it is followed by his stretchy, second GM7 form which keeps the 1st and 2nd string and moves the other notes down a fret. The combination makes for a lush sound that might work well for intro or ending, though not as well for comping multiple choruses.

    As dot75 suggests, start higher up, around the 8th fret or higher and work your way down.

    Another thing you can try is to use the old standby Dominant 7 voicing. E.g. for A7 5 7 5 6 8 5. When you can play that with your ring finger arched and not collapsing, you just have to flatten the pinky finger. When you can do that, move on to Baker's Major 7 voicing. Again, start on a higher fret.

    A way to get the effect of Baker's voicings is simply forget that 5th and 6th strings. x x 6 5 7 7 --> x x 5 4 7 7. That gives you Ab7--> GM7. (Add a Am7 at the beginning x x 7 9 8 8)

    You could also try 4 6 x 5 7 x --> 3 5 x 4 7 x

    A final option would be to play a D7b9b5, leaving out the 13th. x 5 4 5 4 4. You probably want to play something different for the subsequent GM7. Perhaps a Bm7 or Em7 sub on the 1-4 string set. Or a G 6/9.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by dnauhei
    Newbie working through the Mickey Baker Jazz Guitar book. When I try and fret D13b5b9 using his fingerings, my third finger lays flat across all the strings and mutes everything. Any suggestions for fretting this chord? Or is the an alternate I can learn?
    I have very small hands, limited mobility of middle finger, jammed 1st knuckle of ring finger, etc., etc.. In other words, lot's of problems with fretting hand. However, I can finger this chord. The important thing is to NOT barre with index finger. There's no need to. You only need to finger the 6th string with index finger. The 4th string is not played.

    In my case, because of my small hands, my ring finger conveniently falls over the 4th string and mutes it. If you finger it this way you should also be able to play the maj7 by holding your little finger in place on 1st and 2nd strings and moving i, m, a down a half step.
    Last edited by Jack E Blue; 05-28-2018 at 01:36 PM. Reason: corrected 5th and 6th to 1st and 2nd

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Elliott
    What makes Baker's very difficult to finger D13b9b5 chord worth mastering is when it is followed by his stretchy, second GM7 form which keeps the 1st and 2nd string and moves the other notes down a fret. The combination makes for a lush sound that might work well for intro or ending, though not as well for comping multiple choruses.
    Right on, man, Mickey's voice leading all of the notes on that D dominant chord to the resolution at GMa7, thinking pianistically instead of guitaristically. That's why he added alterations galore. When first discussing that chord out of context I was thinking "why bother?" But then aha! The payoff is in the resolution. He also names that chord functionally rather than literally. It's an Ab dominant, a standard if fancified b5 sub, but it functions as a V7 and so he named it that even though there isn't a Din the chord.

    Also, analyze it as superimposed chords- a pianist could play a D7 in the left hand and Ab7#9 in the right (maybe leaving out the clashing notes, unless he has at least an octave or even two between the two hands), resolving to G major triad or GMa7 in the left hand and Bmin7 in the right for a spread Gmaj9 with some interesting contrary motion resolution. Hard to get on a guitar, but Mickey's move here suggests that.

    Easy to dismiss Mickey's books as obsolete and un-modern, but that's some hip stuff. Also, that's easier to finger cleanly on a wider neck. IIRC seeing pictures of Mickey playing nylon string guitars.

  19. #18

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    I use that chord often and have never found it difficult. I think that's because I'm used to playing rock 'n roll bar chords and that's nothing but a Ab7 with a #9 on top. It's one of those "Hendrix" chords. Your 3rd finger mutes the D string if you arch it just right.

    I also love that big hairy Gmaj7 chord that follows it!
    Last edited by Gilpy; 05-28-2018 at 04:39 PM.

  20. #19

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    [QUOTE=christianm77; X3444x

    I play but never thought of simply extending the bar to the b5[/QUOTE]

    very cool chord..13b9...put a 7#9 before or after it and move that around in minor thirds..jim hall type stuff

    on different string sets gives very different feel to these chords..

    also the 13b9: note moving in half steps voice leading into maj 7/69 flavor chords (3rd in bass) nice offset: crunchy dominant to smooth major

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    very cool chord..13b9...put a 7#9 before or after it and move that around in minor thirds..jim hall type stuff

    on different string sets gives very different feel to these chords..

    also the 13b9: note moving in half steps voice leading into maj 7/69 flavor chords (3rd in bass) nice offset: crunchy dominant to smooth major
    I heard, and saw, Jim Hall at the Keystone Korner in SF years ago and he used that grip a lot. Different applications, as I recall.
    7
    So, x3444x is C F# B Eb can be D13b9 with the bass on D. It's B/C. B7b9, F7#11b9 etc. Versatile group of notes.

  22. #21
    Wow, there is so much to digest in this thread. I had to wait until I had a quiet 1/2 to sit down with my guitar and digest everything. Thank you for the responses. Cosmic Gumbo--I can finger that! I'll give that a try. I've tried some of these suggestions, but I don't think I am every going to be able to finger it Micketys way! Maybe in a year or so ....
    Attached Images Attached Images Tips for fretting a D13b5b9?-20180528_101418-jpg 

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E Blue
    I have very small hands, limited mobility of middle finger, jammed 1st knuckle of ring finger, etc., etc.. In other words, lot's of problems with fretting hand. However, I can finger this chord. The important thing is to NOT barre with index finger. There's no need to. You only need to finger the 6th string with index finger. The 4th string is not played.

    In my case, because of my small hands, my ring finger conveniently falls over the 4th string and mutes it. If you finger it this way you should also be able to play the maj7 by holding your little finger in place on 1st and 2nd strings and moving i, m, a down a half step.
    I have similar left-hand problems, plus Dupuytren's contracture and focal dystonia, which have caused me to abandon quite a few fingerings I've used much of my playing life. Even so, I have no problem playing this chord, although the follow-up GMA7 now takes some concentration.

    The book in question, combined with Mel Bay's Orchestral Chord System For Guitar, has formed about 90% of my jazz guitar playing since the early '60's. I can still get through most of the chordal stuff in it, but everyone is different. I suspect it gave me fits when I first tried it, but after all these years of living with it, it's hard for me to imagine what that was like. All I can say is keep at it, and if that doesn't work, pare it down to what does work for you.

    Danny W.
    Last edited by Danny W.; 05-29-2018 at 08:55 AM.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I heard, and saw, Jim Hall at the Keystone Korner in SF years ago and he used that grip a lot. Different applications, as I recall.
    7
    So, x3444x is C F# B Eb can be D13b9 with the bass on D. It's B/C. B7b9, F7#11b9 etc. Versatile group of notes.
    yes..and of course context is everything in these type of applications-basic triad inversions with offset bass notes..in some of my fusion ventures chord names are dropped .. just the "sound" is played .. ben monder thinking-and playing in several keys at once..

  25. #24

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    It's all Mickey Baker's fault. He's got a damn cheek picturing an Ab7#9 and calling it a D chord. I'm all for keeping our ii-V's intact but really.

    (We used to call it the Mickey Baker comic book, but don't tell anybody)

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Yeah look at that D13b5b9 it’s really just an Ab#9 chord.
    True. When I figured out the fingering that was the chord I heard playing strings 1-4.

  27. #26

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    bVmin upper structure triad.

    inversions the triad on strings 1,2,3 (try on the other strings, really hard not too practical)... you also can get something with open D and B strings too but I digress...

    root pos Ab min:
    xx10-13-12-11 (you're omitting the 3rd)

    1st inv Ab min:
    x-3-4-4-4-4 (as mentioned previously)

    2nd inv Ab min (best sound IMO, but hard to finger bc you need to do a cross barre)
    x-9-10-8-9-7
    fingering: x-2-4-1-3-1


    To the OP: to play the original chord mentioned earlier in the thread just concentrate on keeping some bend in the last joint of the 3rd finger (try playing with the tip as much as is comfortable).

  28. #27

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    Come on Joe. We're movers not hitters.

    Ebm6o.

    Don't take the changes literally; they are changing.

  29. #28

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    Alan! what are you doing here? It was just one mickey baker chord, I swear!

  30. #29

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    And what's more the book provides the fingering. And given it a fancy title.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Alan! what are you doing here? It was just one mickey baker chord, I swear!

    That Mickey Baker leads to harder stuff Joe. Now go to your room.

  32. #31

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    The question is:

    Why did Mickey Baker put in a picture of an Ab7#9 and call it D13b9b5?

  33. #32

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    The whole “vibe” of the book, to me, comes off as “just do it.” He barely explains anything (I know, he does some.) My point is I think it was “let’s call it a D chord so they know the function— they’ll learn about tri-tone subs later.”

  34. #33

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    not how i would have approached it, but he’s a cushtie geeza either way.

  35. #34

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    I haven't looked through this entire thread yet, so I'm not sure how many of these have already been shared... but here's a few I'd jump to

    X3X444
    XX6547
    8X989X
    XX10.897
    XX10.13.12.11

    They're all rootless... if you want to hear them as they would sound in an ensemble, you can sing a low D, loop it with a pedal, or move any of these up a whole step and play them against the low E string to transpose it to an E13b9b5 and hear what it would sound like against a bass player. And really, with a little playfulness, some of these can actually handle squeezing the root in there as well. But they'll make your life more difficult... and if you're playing with a bass player... it's really not necessary.

  36. #35

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    For the case where some altered version of the V chord followed by the root (maj) is a good ending, this fingering from MB and then just move fingers 1-2-3 down one fret to make a nice/full Imaj7 is a nice ending for cases where that works.

    dave
    Attached Images Attached Images Tips for fretting a D13b5b9?-d7-alt-jpg 

  37. #36

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    I'm a newbie too and trying to go thru the MB book, chord #6 was a booger but finally able to 'grab it', it's #7 that I wrote a big X thru!! (I'm sure there will be lots more to scratch out!} My hands are to small for those long-reach pinkie finger chords, should I just give up now?

    Has anybody ever worked all the way thru the first MB book??

    Thanks,
    Dick C.

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by goinbaroke
    I'm a newbie too and trying to go thru the MB book, chord #6 was a booger but finally able to 'grab it', it's #7 that I wrote a big X thru!! (I'm sure there will be lots more to scratch out!} My hands are to small for those long-reach pinkie finger chords, should I just give up now?

    Has anybody ever worked all the way thru the first MB book??

    Thanks,
    Dick C.
    Don't give up yet. I doubt that your hands are smaller than mine. Of course I could be thinking that my hands are smaller than they actually are. Maybe a photo next to a ruler would be a way to show the actual size.

    Anyway, you've got Mickey's infamous chord #6 down so you're making progress. I think it's worth forcing yourself to be able to play #7. You're going to have to push yourself out of your comfort zone. Start high up the neck where the frets are closer together and gradually work your way down towards the 1st fret. I don't mean in one practice session. This might take some time. But just 2-3 minutes a day will probably get you there faster than you think.

    There are chord shapes that many people can easily play that are physically impossible for me. However, chord #7 isn't one of them and you can probably do it too. It's important that you don't barre with your index finger. You only need to finger the 6th string with your index. The 4th string is muted by your ring finger kinda laying over it.

    I hope this helps. Don't give up. Look at stuff like this as a challenge.

    I worked thru the 1st half of Baker's book. I'll admit that I didn't do it the way he tells you to. I'm now starting over and am working on both halves at the same time. The 2nd half is forcing me to read standard notation which is something I've put off for far too long.
    Last edited by Jack E Blue; 06-04-2018 at 10:38 PM.

  39. #38

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    Thanks Jack, I'll take your advice and keep trying #7, I'm 79 and so fingers are a little slower now. I'm never going to be in a band, just do this to keep my mind going!

    I agree on the working in first and second halves of the book, I want more than accompanying, I want to do single-string stuff too, and not being a note reader I convert all to tabs so I can play some of the old tunes: Misty, Satin Doll, Shadow of your Smile, Autumn Leaves, etc.

    Thanks again for your advice,
    Dick C. (GoinBaroke)

  40. #39

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    Wow, Dick, 79 years old and still pursuing new and challenging things to learn. That is not only admirable, it's inspirational. I hope I'm still able to do this when I'm 79. Right now I'm just a 66 year old teenager.

    Keep plugging away. Segovia, Les Paul, Bucky Pizzarelli and others played into their 90's.

  41. #40

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    Thanks Jack, age is just a number!

    Practiced on the #7 chord yesterday, started on the 7th fret, did okay so far!


  42. #41

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    BTW, for those that don't know you can always google a chord and go to the google images link to see lots of different variations of that chord often with useful sublinks; in this case, D13b5b9, there is one for Mickey Baker. A lot quicker than looking at a book or a dedicated chord web site/app. For more ambiguous searches do something like "g guitar chord".

  43. #42

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    Thanks ZDUB, never thought to do that!

  44. #43

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    For those of you ready to move on...(always warm up before attempting the final chord)
    Attached Images Attached Images Tips for fretting a D13b5b9?-wtf-jpg 

  45. #44

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    That's a Johnny Smith chord! LOL

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    The tab on the last chord is funny, but the chord is almost playable.

    Put the E and B on open strings (10) 12 10 10 0 0.
    Except the chord's Ab, Bb, C, D, Eb. F......

    I'm not going to spoon feed everyone, but a top tip from Barry Galbraith no less, never overlook the nose.

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by dot75
    Except the chord's Ab, Bb, C, D, Eb. F......

    I'm not going to spoon feed everyone, but a top tip from Barry Galbraith no less, never overlook the nose.
    Right. Sorry. I missed the key sig.

  48. #47

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    Hey, I'm new to this forum and I also put some thoughts in the D13b5b9 chord in the past since I love playing it. Mickey Bakers books are great and still hold up, but there are some little mistakes in it. The D13b5b9 really is a D7b9 (or #9 if you wish) and represents the half/whole-step diminished scale (Root, b9 #9, 3, #11, 5, 13, 7). Because of this the name D13b5b9 is not quite right since the b5 indicates that there is no fifth (but there is). The b5 really is a #11.
    V7 b9 chords sounds best when they resolute down a fifth. This is the reason why the D13b5b9 chord (which is a D7b9) sounds so great when followed by the Gmaj7.

    P.S.
    Please excuse my english. I only learned it by watching The Wire when I was 16.

  49. #48

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    You're probably right, but those equations are beyond me! I love the chord too, and also the Gma7th after it, although I can only grab it down to the 5th fret!

    P.S.: Your English is better than mine!!

  50. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Cat
    The D13b5b9 really is a D7b9 (or #9 if you wish) and represents the half/whole-step diminished scale (Root, b9 #9, 3, #11, 5, 13, 7). Because of this the name D13b5b9 is not quite right since the b5 indicates that there is no fifth (but there is). The b5 really is a #11.
    But it's not really "FROM" half/whole-step diminished. It's possible to associated with it, ....or it could be altered scale. It's certainly true that a lot of flat five and sharp five representations in chord symbols are messed up.

    Anyway, the BIGGEST problem with this chord , here in 2018, is the outdated labeling of it as a D chord in the first place. Modern players or composers would name it from an Ab root. It's just an old fashion and naming convention.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Anyway, the BIGGEST problem with this chord , here in 2018, is the outdated labeling of it as a D chord in the first place. Modern players or composers would name it from an Ab root. It's just an old fashion and naming convention.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk
    I always use it as a V7, so the name is correct for how I use it.