Tips for fretting a D13b5b9?

[sully75]

Wouldn't the best answer be in 2023 don't use the Mickey Baker book to learn Jazz Guitar? I appreciate it had a time and place but it just seems like a very inefficient use of your time at this point with so much great information available. I don't know exactly what to substitute but it seems like a very unhip way into jazz guitar right now.

Throw it out and buy some and buy some Randy Vincent books? I've been playing for a while and I don't think I sound terrible but at this point that chord is not something I need on a regular basis and I definitely didn't need it when I was starting out.

[ragman1]

Be honest, when was the last time, apart from the Mickey Baker book, that anybody saw a 13b5b9 chord?

[sully75]

I haven't looked at it in a long time but it feels like learning weird chords out of context as a beginner is a really long backdoor to playing well.

I really like a nice 9 chord with the root in the bass, b9 if you need it, they sound pretty nice to me. I'm working on taking the root out of the bass and definitely my time studying Django stuff makes my chording kinda clunky but I'm happy I know where the chords I play come from more or less.

It just seems like it's the slowest way to sounding good. In retrospect the time I spent on Leavitt (went to that from MB) was also not really that helpful.

Learning tunes with the bass note or bass and the 7th, very helpful.

I went to a jam session the other day and this kid came up and was playing some sort of advanced tune (I can't remember which) and was sort of all over it, playing tons of voicings, but super hyper and the time was all over the place. He could shred some runs too. But like totally uncool and I would have been happier to hear him lay in the pocket, which I don't think he could do.

Anyway, I suck too, just in a hipper way (just kidding).

[sully75]

I just don't know what you're going to do with that chord out of context. Plop it in someday on an altered chord and then what?

[SedanDelivery2022]

I haven't looked at it in a long time but it feels like learning weird chords out of context as a beginner is a really long backdoor to playing well.

I don't think it's out of context though. It resolves really nicely to the Maj7, demonstrated here by Rob McKillop (it's the penultimate chord). Regardless of what we call it, it *sounds* really cool in a lovely sequence and makes perfect sense to our ears. (*Edit* The sequence i'm listening to starts at 4:40).

[ragman1]

I just don't know what you're going to do with that chord out of context. Plop it in someday on an altered chord and then what?

It's a big band end-of-chorus lick. Play it chunky, 4 strong beats each bar, and you'll hear it. Bring out the treble on the Ab7#9.

If you think it sounds dated, it is :-)

[ragman1]

I don't think it's out of context though. It resolves really nicely to the Maj7, demonstrated here by Rob McKillop (it's the penultimate chord). Regardless of what we call it, it *sounds* really cool in a lovely sequence and makes perfect sense to our ears. (*Edit* The sequence i'm listening to starts at 4:40).

It may say GM7 in the book (and on that video) but that's not how it's used. GM7 (top note 2nd string D) after that high Bb sucks. It does NOT sound cool. Listen to it!

Some of these people could persuade you black was white, I tell you.

[sully75]

I'm not arguing that chords in the MB book sound good. I'm just saying in 2023 it's a pretty poor entry into playing jazz, given the options available.

In 1975 or something it might have been great.

[ragman1]

I agree, it's out of date now. But it has to be said quite a few people found it useful in its day. Personally, I started with Bert Weedon's Play In A Day. It was jolly good but not much to do with jazz specifically :-)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I agree, it's out of date now. But it has to be said quite a few people found it useful in its day. Personally, I started with Bert Weedon's Play In A Day. It was jolly good but not much to do with jazz specifically :-)

And yet, any thread on the Telecaster forum where someone asks for a jazz instruction book, Mickey Baker will get more recommendations than all the other books put together.

[ragman1]

where someone asks for a jazz instruction book

Obviously, because it's a jazz book. Play In A Day was a general starter.

[SedanDelivery2022]

I *love* the old stuff. Mickey Baker, Leavitt, and your Bert Weedon looks delicious too.

There's something just cool about learning a craft from the same method generations of cool cats also used. Like being a member of a secret society or something.

I don't get "out of date." All that said, I always like hearing what people think are the best methods for learning.

[AllanAllen]

And yet, any thread on the Telecaster forum where someone asks for a jazz instruction book, Mickey Baker will get more recommendations than all the other books put together.

At the end of the day it's a $10 book with youtube videos of every exercise. Sure, a few years after working through it you might think this or that little bit wasn't essential. But you can feel that way about anything.

Also, to Sully claiming it's teaching awkward chords out of context... You play them on the next page, chord progressions start immediately after learning the chord fingerings. I mean, what do you expect, to play music without any work?

[timmer]

Ugh, my hand hurts just reading this thread. I prefer grabbing a few of the notes and switching to others on alternating beats. Just keep it moving to imply the full harmony. I think I need to get into some Jim Hall. I like the idea of freeing up the fingers.

[classict1]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this in the thread, but here’s a way to pull off D13b5b9 with the root in the bass -

10 11 10 8 7 7
D Ab C Eb F# B

Requires catching the low D with your left hand thumb. Nice and crunchy sound!

Clearly not what Baker intended but a sound worth putting your ears on

[AllanAllen]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this in the thread, but here’s a way to pull off D13b5b9 with the root in the bass -

10 11 10 8 7 7
D Ab C Eb F# B

Requires catching the low D with your left hand thumb. Nice and crunchy sound!

Clearly not what Baker intended but a sound worth putting your ears on

That's quite a chord grip

[RobbieAG]

One option would be to think of a B major triad (13, b9, 3). It wouldn't have the b5, but would be super easy to move around and use all the effort presumably put into practicing triads. In most cases 5ths of chords are not necessary.

[jazzanovA524]

I am working through this book myself, and find that for this chord (and several others) it may be easier at times to fret the 6th string with your thumb. I've always played these jazz chords (found in other tunes) *without* the thumb, but found that certain composers (eg John Mayer) utilize these varied voicings to great effect and center their technique around using the thumb to fret the 6th string, which is where/how I embodied the practice. I am personally working through all the exercises with both fingering variations, but this chord in particular I have been unable to master without use of the thumb.

[ragman1]

Just play it



I promise, no one will object.

[AllanAllen]

Or play it as a G up by the 10th fret until you can get the stretch down. It’s not hard for me to grip…. 3 years later.

Ragman is right, don’t let this one chord hold you up. But also don’t skip it forever.

[ragman1]

Actually, especially if there's a bass player, just play a rootless D13b9 (xx4547). It's effective because it's the same sound as an Ab7#9 which is a D13b5b9 in disguise. Sort of :-)

(If you go back to the start of the thread it all began with the Mickey Baker book that printed a diagram of an Ab7#9 and labelled it D13b5b9, thus creating a big furore. Lots of fun!)

Tips for fretting a D13b5b9?

[Rick5]

I don't know about that book, but a voicing I love (that omits the third and doubles the 7th) is:

D (on the E string)
Skip the A string
C (on the D string)
Eb (G string)
Ab (B string)
C (e string)

I use that one a lot in chord melody stuff when the 7th is in the melody.

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[Rick5]

Not with the 13th of course. It's a really cool voicing.

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[AllanAllen]

This is the chord the thread is about.

[Bop Head]

This is the chord the thread is about.

For me that's a overcomplicated interpretation of an Ab7/#9. For altered chords it is always worth looking at them from the perspective of the respective tritone sub.