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Sure. At least this voicing has b5 and b9 in it.
Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
I had a college professor who was irritated about the fact that some theoreticians a few decades ago would say that Ab7 to G "is always wrong". That it should always be respelled as some sort of D7 to be "correct", even for straight up , vanilla Ab7.
I'd tend to think that there's a distinction between how something is "used" or how it "functions", but that kind of thought process is mostly personal/individual.
Sent from my SM-J727P using TapatalkLast edited by matt.guitarteacher; 07-26-2018 at 01:04 PM.
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07-26-2018 08:38 AM
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Ab7 being spelt as an augmented 6th presumably.
Ab C Eb F#
I know a lot of people (jazzers) might think of that as needless abstraction,but actually when you write it out it makes sense. Gb to G is ugly and disguises the function of the chord.
OTOH the rules of voice leading in jazz are somewhat relaxed
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I was having a brain fart, because calling it Ab7 is certainly acceptable, since it's the tritone sub, duh. Same V7 function. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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I'm retired with a passion for Dance Band string bass, archtop guitar and plectrum banjo, so I'd like to share my explorations of the Baker Method with anyone who may be interested.
There's 72 pages for Mickey Baker's JG (1955) in the 1973 Clifford Essex blue cover edition. The 13-5-9 grip appears on 20 pages: 6-11,13,16,18-19,21-22,28-32,52-53,58. So he thought highly of this chord. It's the Mickey Baker chord (or the Johnny Carson chord as heard on page 13 lesson 8).
From Mickey Baker's set of 33 grips:
No.6 is the D13-5-9: Neck Position 4 [5b9bx7b313] (omitted root - sight the D!)
No.7 is a GM7: Neck Position 3 [15x373] (doubled third - be in tune!)
It's plain to see that they are sister voicings and the D13-5-9 resolves to GM7 chromatically by one semitone, except for the top two notes which are common (oblique motion). I call it the Good-Night! resolution. I can only find grip No.7 on page 28, where it's resolution appears this way as an Hollywood chord for finales/endings.
Viewing the intervals with respect to D it's a 13-5-9. With respect to Ab it's also a 7+9 (the Stevie Ray Vaughan version of the Hendrix chord). Take your pick, depending upon whether you were thinking V Dom7th to Tonic I or the Dominant Tritone Substitution Vb (5b Sub) to Tonic I. I hear it as a Tritone Sub.
In the key of G, the Ab is required in the bass (on the E string) for good resolution, as the bassline descends chromatically by one semitone. Which sounds full, especially in Positions 3 and 4, as I think the method was meant for guitarists playing alone, but with a string bass player or bass voices in the brass section, we'd need to talk things over first or have this bass note reflected in the chart so that everybody knows.
And it's a desperate little chord to finger. I have to hold the guitar in the seated dance-band position with the:
1. upper bout's top edge resting against my solar plexis,
2. lower bout's bottom edge resting against outer part of my right thigh
3. right forearm resting against lower bout's top edge to balance against the left hand on the fingerboard.
Almost like the pictures on the cover of MB's Method. This tilts the fingerboard at 45 degrees for a close view of the action and the neck pointing up at 45 degrees from the floor. This also provides great RH wrist strumming action. But this arrangement allows me to "goose-neck" my left wrist, hand and fingers so that I can chord with the fingertips. (caloused finger tips only!) All chords are easier when seated this way with the guitar and "goose-neck" fingertips. Like operating Ed the sock-puppet...
The extra trick in fingering this chord requires you to angle the index finger so that it points directly at you and not straight across the neck like a barre. This twists the hand so the pinky can barre the two top strings, giving a callous on the outer edge of the pinky. The middle finger will point up the neck more than across the neck. And the ring finger can afford to rest against the D string for muting. The ring finger will also point up the neck more than across as the hand is twisted in that direction. It almost barres the A and D string, but you don't want the D string sounding. If your palm touches the neck, then raise your "goose-neck".
Perhaps it's important as to whether your guitar has a Gibson 1 11/16ths or a classical guitar's 1 3/4 nut-width. The narrow neck allows me to barre two strings with one fingertip while chords on the wider neck don't sound as "tight" to me and feel too far apart with the plectrum. But wider necks help with string bending. It's important to try them and get the right size for your hand.
It still takes practice and effort, and I've found that by not using the thumb at all, I get a good sound with this chord, so use the thumb sparingly behind the neck. I prefer playing parts of chords anyways, by string set, so I avoid full barre chords and muddy 5 part harmony. Those guide tones (3/3b/7/7b/6) sound sharp and crisp in any band. This chord is a rarety and its usage does not merit the time spent or the risks of carpel-tunnel, especially for a beginning jazz guitarist. It's too big a step. I came back to it years later because I have the time now to appreciate its colour and no longer have to struggle with the basics, which are hard enough.
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If you're playing through the Mickey Baker book and he says Ab7#9 then play that. It's what it's supposed to be. If MB wants to call it a D7 chord then good luck to him
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So I'm not the only one who gave it a nickname. I call it "Mickey's Money Shot". Originally Posted by CrackerJackLee
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My hands are average size. I had to angle the fingers 45 degrees, especially the index...instead of parallel with the frets. Also, staying on fingertips only. Once seated, I point the neck up 45 degrees, instead of holding it like a machine gun, and angle the fingerboard 45 degrees so that I can look down onto it. This helped me immensely. I had to realise that these aren't rock chords, but big band chords. And D13-5-9 aka Ab7+9 is a rare ten-dollar Hollywood chord only applicable/useful to finales/outros. Freddie Green had a wonderful career and he stuck to one part, two part and three part chords... but see how he holds the guitar... Originally Posted by goinbaroke
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As a newbie, I found that D7(b9) works like a charm after an Am7. I play that every time I see the D13b5b9 abomination which, in my humble newbie opinion, is just finger gymnastics. Originally Posted by dnauhei
It would be X5454X if I understood well the notation system.
Actually, Am7 - D7(b9) - Gmaj7 is a very common progression, isn't it? The ii-V-I, the spinal "chord" of jazzy stuff?
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Secret hint: I used to have some sort of copy of the MB book and that chord was there - D13b9b5 or whatever it was... and next to it (printed in the book) was a picture exactly like this:
Solved :-)
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For the ultimate in mobility and flexibility, think of a B triad which will give you the 13, b9, and 3. Granted you don't have the b5, but you can use your triad arpeggios and chord forms to your heart's content.
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How did the D13b5b9 get its name? Shouldn't it be an Ab chord? Rookie here of course
root note is on the Ab, where would I play the Eb13b5b9 chord in Lesson 2?
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It functions as a V7. The bass note isn’t always the chord name. Originally Posted by Sushi313
How did the D13b5b9 get its name? Shouldn't it be an Ab chord? Rookie here of course root note is on the Ab, where would I play the Eb13b5b9 chord in Lesson 2?
I’m not good with explaining theory and some guys here, I think they don’t even play, just argue about the same things over and over.
Anyway, here’s a website to go along with the book.
Mickey Baker
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I appreciate your reply! May I ask what is V7? Voice?
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Dominant V chord, written as V but pronounced "five". So the chords in G major are Originally Posted by Sushi313
I appreciate your reply! May I ask what is V7? Voice?
I - G major
ii - A minor
iii - B minor
IV - C Major
V - D major
vi - E minor
vii - F diminished
Sometimes everything is uppercase and you have to hear what's major and minor. It's called the Nashville system like the studio cats there made it up, but they didn't. It's older than that.
You should probably get a teacher if this is new information to you. It's going to be real confusing on your own.
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V7 is in Roman numerals which is number 5: Originally Posted by Sushi313
I appreciate your reply! May I ask what is V7? Voice?
What is a 2-5-1 Chord Progression?
A 2-5-1 chord progression (aka: ii-V-I) is a common musical convention of three consecutive chords which effectively establish a key. For example, the chords Dm7?G7?Cmaj7 create a pleasing sound that identifies C major as a tonal center. The numeric identifiers in a 2-5-1 progression represent the relationship of each chord to the tonal center—aka the “tonic.”
20 Ways To Play 2-5-1 Chord Progressions
S
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I appreciate your help my friend. Oh! I believe MB wrote the chords are in key of G! Thank you
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then fifth (5 or V ) note/scale degree in key of G major ....and make it a 7th so D7. here's a quick demo Originally Posted by Sushi313
I appreciate your help my friend. Oh! I believe MB wrote the chords are in key of G! Thank you
S
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Thank you S!
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The chords in G, as I was taught are:
I - G major 7th
ii - A minor 7th
iii - B minor 7th
IV - C Major 7th
V - D Dominant 7th
vi - E minor 7th
vii - F# half-diminished (or F# m7b5)
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FWIW That's what William Leavitt calls it, way at the end of MMFG Vol 1. Ab7 (+9). Originally Posted by ragman1
If you're playing through the Mickey Baker book and he says Ab7#9 then play that. It's what it's supposed to be. If MB wants to call it a D7 chord then good luck to him
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Good man, that William Leavitt :-)
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Tritone subs are always called by their root, not in terms of the chord they're subbing.
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Trying to drill into the theoretical minutia of a rootless D7, isn't going to help anyone get better when they are just starting.
It's a rootless D7, you should think of it that way when you are 2 pages into the Mickey Baker book.
All the hip theory can come after the player can play the chords, like the end of the MMFG book, see the difference of the location? There is context to consider.
The bold it supposed to highlight the meat of my post, not be yelling. I'm not mad at the tritone sub, or Ragman, or anything at all. So much madness around here lately...
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Hmm, I don't think I've ever wanted to play a Dom713b5b9 chord, certainly not the suggested MB fingerings! But that's because I just like 4 note chords when comping, and usually something that resembles a drop 2 voicing (lazy, I know).
Someone may tell me I'm wrong, but when I see the above chord, I try to figure out the 4 most important notes, so the 3rd and b7 obviously, then the b9, and then 13th. I can live without the b5.
Now the way I see that chord is as a variation of the more familiar (to me at least) Dom7 b9b13 chord, which I see as a m7b5 chord built on the b7 (so Cm7b5 in this case). Bizarrely, what I think to do is to raise the 7th of this Cm7b5 to get to the B note which is the 13th over D7. So I'd think CmMaj7b5. The 4 drop 2 grips are a bit stretchy, but all playable.
How important is that b5 in D713b5b9 anyway?
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It's a tritone sub, printed as No. 6 on page 5, hence the chromatic bass line: Am - Ab7 - G. That's why tritone subs are called by their correct name, to get the chromatic effect.
The D7#5b9 at the end is a different chord. The shape is No. 21, originally printed as a G7#5b9. That shape is moved to the 10th fret on page 58 and becomes a D7#5b9, which is not a tritone sub.
I've got the book. The book is wrong on that one. All is does is confuse the reader, hence this whole thread. Unfortunately.
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