Minor ii V i theory question

[edddddd]

Please could someone explain why a minor ii V i progression has a M7 V chord? My understanding is that this chord is based off the Phrygian mode (m7), so to me it makes sense it would be a ii v i progression (Locrian, Phrygian, Aeolian).

Thanks, Ed


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[supermaxx]

You're asking why the V chord is a major chord and not a minor chord? The big "M" typically means major7, which the V chord never is. It's a dominant V7.

But the reason we use a V7 is that the 3rd of the chord is the leading tone to the tonic. For example, in Cm, G7 is the V and the note B (the major 3rd) leads to C in a stronger fashion than Bb. The purpose of a ii-V-i it to create tension and relief and in the case of a minor tonic the V7 creates a more direct resolution.

[joe2758]

have you learned harmonic minor? that's where it gets the name harmonic minor. No need to bring modes into it, it's just standard classical music theory

[JakeAcci]

For what it's worth, here's something I wrote a while ago for my students regarding the leading tone. I get to the minor key stuff near the middle/end. Not meant to be super thorough, just a quick drive by on the topic.

Leading Tone, V chord, and V7 chord

In a key, the “leading tone” is the 7th degree of that key. It can resolve up by a half step to the root of that key.

The 3rd of the V chord is the 7th degree of the key. For example, in the key of C, the leading tone is B and the V chord is G major. B is the 3rd of G.

The V chord commonly resolves to the I chord, the leading tone pulls up to the root of the I chord.

If we make V a dominant seventh chord (V7) then we have added the b7 of the V chord, which is the 4th of the key.

This strengthens the resolution back to I, as the 4th of the key (the b7 of the V chord) can resolve down a half step to the 3rd of the I chord. Additionally, the interval between the 4th of the key and the leading tone of the key is a dissonant one - a “tritone” (three whole steps = #4) and then needs to resolve.

For example, G7 has the notes G B D F and C major chord has the notes C E G

In the V7 to I progression, the F can resolve down a half step to E, while the leading tone, B, resolves up a half step to C.

This is why the most common place for a dominant seventh chord is at the V.

This also can work in the context of a minor key, or a resolution to a “i” chord that is minor. The leading tone still pulls with as much strength in a minor key, even though the leading tone, the seventh, is not actually in the natural minor scale. The ascending half step motion towards the root is very strong and very common.

In V7 to i, resolving to a minor chord, the 4th of the key (the b7 of the V7 chord) will resolve down a whole step to the b3 of the i chord.

This is why songs in minor keys often have V as major or dominant, rather than minor, even though the diatonic v chord in a minor key is a minor v, not major.

The natural minor scale has a b7. The leading tone is the natural seventh.

A minor scale that has all the same notes as the normal minor scale except a natural seventh instead of a flat seventh is the harmonic minor scale: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7.

[ragman1]

Please could someone explain why a minor ii V i progression has a M7 V chord?

I don't understand the question. It doesn't. The V chord in a minor ii-V-i isn't a M7, it's a dominant. V is not M7, it's V!

(The V chord is a dominant by default. It might not be written as V7 but the V is always a dominant in major or minor scales)

[JakeAcci]

I don't understand the question. It doesn't. The V chord in a minor ii-V-i isn't a M7, it's a dominant. V is not M7, it's V!

I think it was just the wrong symbol - from context I believe the OP meant major triad at the base instead of minor triad.

[ragman1]

I think it was just the wrong symbol - from context I believe the OP meant major triad at the base instead of minor triad.

I know, but a major triad is not M7. M7's are not triads and V is not a wrong symbol. Nor is V a minor chord. The OP should be clear. He's assuming the M7 when it isn't written.

If he's happy to accept the ii and i as minor chords as written, why not the V?

[JakeAcci]

I know, but a major triad is not M7. M7's are not triads and V is not a wrong symbol. Nor is V a minor chord. The OP should be clear. He's assuming the M7 when it isn't written.

If he's happy to accept the ii and i as minor chords as written, why not the V?

hey Edddddd:

usually M7 means "major seventh," but easier to make the distinction in most cases with Maj7.

just "7" implies dominant seventh.

So V7 is dominant from the fifth degree of the scale, Vmaj7 or VM7 (latter being less common) is major seventh chord from the fifth degree of the scale.

In roman numerals I like using uppercase for anything with a major third and lowercase for anything with a minor third, but different people/books/schools do this differently.

[edddddd]

Thank you all so much for your replies. Some really useful stuff in here from people who really know what they are talking about!

As someone starting out in jazz, it's extremely useful.

Thanks, Ed

[edddddd]

I know, but a major triad is not M7. M7's are not triads and V is not a wrong symbol. Nor is V a minor chord. The OP should be clear. He's assuming the M7 when it isn't written.

If he's happy to accept the ii and i as minor chords as written, why not the V?

I've got my symbology wrong - I meant a major chord with a dominant 7, not major seventh. Thanks for clearing this up.


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[edddddd]

For what it's worth, here's something I wrote a while ago for my students regarding the leading tone. I get to the minor key stuff near the middle/end. Not meant to be super thorough, just a quick drive by on the topic.

Awesome, thanks.


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[edddddd]

hey Edddddd:

usually M7 means "major seventh," but easier to make the distinction in most cases with Maj7.

just "7" implies dominant seventh.

So V7 is dominant from the fifth degree of the scale, Vmaj7 or VM7 (latter being less common) is major seventh chord from the fifth degree of the scale.

In roman numerals I like using uppercase for anything with a major third and lowercase for anything with a minor third, but different people/books/schools do this differently.

Thank you, I now get the terminology! Won't make the same mistake again..


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[edddddd]

You're asking why the V chord is a major chord and not a minor chord? The big "M" typically means major7, which the V chord never is. It's a dominant V7.

But the reason we use a V7 is that the 3rd of the chord is the leading tone to the tonic. For example, in Cm, G7 is the V and the note B (the major 3rd) leads to C in a stronger fashion than Bb. The purpose of a ii-V-i it to create tension and relief and in the case of a minor tonic the V7 creates a more direct resolution.

Very useful, thank you.


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[edddddd]

have you learned harmonic minor? that's where it gets the name harmonic minor. No need to bring modes into it, it's just standard classical music theory

As you can probably tell, not enough... Great replies though.


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[ragman1]

I meant a major chord with a dominant 7, not major seventh.

But, Ed, what's a major chord with a dominant 7? It's either major or dominant, it can't be both.

[edddddd]

[QUOTE=ragman1;862446]

I meant a major chord with a dominant 7, not major seventh./QUOTE]

But, Ed, what's a major chord with a dominant 7? It's either major or dominant, it can't be both.

When I was thinking 1,3,5,b7, I was thinking "it's a major chord (1,3,5) with a dominant 7th (b7)" - not just "it's dominant." Confusing myself and everyone else.. Thanks!


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[ragman1]

All chords are basically triads. Even a dominant has a triad as a base, like G7 = GBD + F.

If you played Dm - G - C as simple triads (DFA - GBD - CEG), the G would technically be a major chord but not fulfilling the same function as the I chord.

You weren't entirely wrong in thinking 'It's a major chord plus a b7' but a major triad plus a b7 would be more accurate. And then the whole thing together would be a dominant chord.

Ultimately the best thing would probably be to keep dominants dominant and majors major :-)

[Jazzstdnt]

But, Ed, what's a major chord with a dominant 7? It's either major or dominant, it can't be both.

This is fun.

Major chord with a minor 7th. "Dominant" is not an interval.

And:

In major, and sometimes in minor tonality the the V chord (triad) is major, and is also dominant, whether it has a seventh or not.

1. Tonic
2. Super tonic
3. Mediant
4. Sub-Dominant
5. Dominant
6. Submediant
7. Leading Tone