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Please could someone explain why a minor ii V i progression has a M7 V chord? My understanding is that this chord is based off the Phrygian mode (m7), so to me it makes sense it would be a ii v i progression (Locrian, Phrygian, Aeolian).
Thanks, Ed
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03-15-2018 12:46 PM
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You're asking why the V chord is a major chord and not a minor chord? The big "M" typically means major7, which the V chord never is. It's a dominant V7.
But the reason we use a V7 is that the 3rd of the chord is the leading tone to the tonic. For example, in Cm, G7 is the V and the note B (the major 3rd) leads to C in a stronger fashion than Bb. The purpose of a ii-V-i it to create tension and relief and in the case of a minor tonic the V7 creates a more direct resolution.
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have you learned harmonic minor? that's where it gets the name harmonic minor. No need to bring modes into it, it's just standard classical music theory
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For what it's worth, here's something I wrote a while ago for my students regarding the leading tone. I get to the minor key stuff near the middle/end. Not meant to be super thorough, just a quick drive by on the topic.
Leading Tone, V chord, and V7 chordIn a key, the “leading tone” is the 7th degree of that key. It can resolve up by a half step to the root of that key.
The 3rd of the V chord is the 7th degree of the key. For example, in the key of C, the leading tone is B and the V chord is G major. B is the 3rd of G.
The V chord commonly resolves to the I chord, the leading tone pulls up to the root of the I chord.
If we make V a dominant seventh chord (V7) then we have added the b7 of the V chord, which is the 4th of the key.
This strengthens the resolution back to I, as the 4th of the key (the b7 of the V chord) can resolve down a half step to the 3rd of the I chord. Additionally, the interval between the 4th of the key and the leading tone of the key is a dissonant one - a “tritone” (three whole steps = #4) and then needs to resolve.
For example, G7 has the notes G B D F and C major chord has the notes C E G
In the V7 to I progression, the F can resolve down a half step to E, while the leading tone, B, resolves up a half step to C.
This is why the most common place for a dominant seventh chord is at the V.
This also can work in the context of a minor key, or a resolution to a “i” chord that is minor. The leading tone still pulls with as much strength in a minor key, even though the leading tone, the seventh, is not actually in the natural minor scale. The ascending half step motion towards the root is very strong and very common.
In V7 to i, resolving to a minor chord, the 4th of the key (the b7 of the V7 chord) will resolve down a whole step to the b3 of the i chord.
This is why songs in minor keys often have V as major or dominant, rather than minor, even though the diatonic v chord in a minor key is a minor v, not major.
The natural minor scale has a b7. The leading tone is the natural seventh.
A minor scale that has all the same notes as the normal minor scale except a natural seventh instead of a flat seventh is the harmonic minor scale: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7.
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Originally Posted by edddddd
(The V chord is a dominant by default. It might not be written as V7 but the V is always a dominant in major or minor scales)
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
If he's happy to accept the ii and i as minor chords as written, why not the V?
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Originally Posted by ragman1
usually M7 means "major seventh," but easier to make the distinction in most cases with Maj7.
just "7" implies dominant seventh.
So V7 is dominant from the fifth degree of the scale, Vmaj7 or VM7 (latter being less common) is major seventh chord from the fifth degree of the scale.
In roman numerals I like using uppercase for anything with a major third and lowercase for anything with a minor third, but different people/books/schools do this differently.
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Thank you all so much for your replies. Some really useful stuff in here from people who really know what they are talking about!
As someone starting out in jazz, it's extremely useful.
Thanks, Ed
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Originally Posted by supermaxx
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Originally Posted by joe2758
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Originally Posted by edddddd
Last edited by ragman1; 04-07-2018 at 09:29 PM.
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[QUOTE=ragman1;862446]
Originally Posted by edddddd
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All chords are basically triads. Even a dominant has a triad as a base, like G7 = GBD + F.
If you played Dm - G - C as simple triads (DFA - GBD - CEG), the G would technically be a major chord but not fulfilling the same function as the I chord.
You weren't entirely wrong in thinking 'It's a major chord plus a b7' but a major triad plus a b7 would be more accurate. And then the whole thing together would be a dominant chord.
Ultimately the best thing would probably be to keep dominants dominant and majors major :-)
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Major chord with a minor 7th. "Dominant" is not an interval.
And:
In major, and sometimes in minor tonality the the V chord (triad) is major, and is also dominant, whether it has a seventh or not.
- Tonic
- Super tonic
- Mediant
- Sub-Dominant
- Dominant
- Submediant
- Leading Tone
Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 04-08-2018 at 02:36 AM.
Video: The Harmonic Minor Scale in Jazz
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