Comping more like Ed Bickert or Lorne Lofsky

[seagullc]

Does anyone have advice for comping in this style? It seems like they treat comping as if they are playing a solo with chords rather than simply going through the changes. If their guitar part was playing rhythm alone it would still be beautiful, and non-repeditive. When I play changes it usually ends up repeating quite often and sounding purely like the "rhythm section" rather than just an accompaniment to the tune. I guess I'm wondering how these guys manage to sound like Bill Evans on the guitar with contrasting rhythms and sounds rather than just Django style, 4 to the bar, basic chords.


Thanks for any tips.

[hot ford coupe]

I'd be interested in the same thing. Ed Bickert uses some different sounding voicings which I just can't seem to figure out. I'd love to learn more about his style.

[GodinFan]

Why not transcribe some Bickert comping? That'll give you the answers you seek. It's bound to make you a better player.

[earsoup]

Ed comps a lot by super imposing voicings over a chord, very often 3-4 notes voicings without roots.

example here : Ed Bickert's harmonic approach - including a short transcription with mp3

[mr. beaumont]

the first thing is to learn the chords to the tune, get them down cold in as many positions as possible. a lot of what ed and lorne are doind is creating a counter melody by paying very specific attention to what note is on the top of the chords they play. create a melody for the tune you're playing that's other than the original melody...use lots of half notes and tied notes--keep it spare, you're still comping, not competing. now, harmonize that melody, and play it as the top note in a succession of chords.after you do this for a while, it becomes possible to construct these counter melodies on the fly.

[mr. beaumont]

as a response to voicings, thy're playing closer, more pianistic voicings...there's a book of bill evans tunes arranged for guitar who's author's name escapes me right now, but a google search should turn it up. it's excellent, as it samples many of these voicings.

but let's take a chord we all know and find a closer voicing for it.

Dmajor7: x 5 7 6 7 x (that's D, A, C#, and F#)

it becomes a lot cooler if you can put a close interval in the same octave. look at that D and C#--they're just asking to be put together.

so let's keep the C# on the third string, but let's play the D on the second string, so this:x x x 6 3 x

ooh...now, lets drop in the rest of the chord--we need an A and a F#...

hmmm...x x 4 6 3 5 now that's tastier...

and of course, there's always notes you can drop too, you don't need to play all the notes of a chord, and you certainly don't need to play the root on the bottom, as this example clarifies.but the real key is not just to have cool voicings, but to connect them smoothly. look for voice leading. look for ways to keep common tones between changes...that's the real bread and butter.

[derek]

as a response to voicings, thy're playing closer, more pianistic voicings...there's a book of bill evans tunes arranged for guitar who's author's name escapes me right now, but a google search should turn it up. it's excellent, as it samples many of these voicings.but let's take a chord we all know and find a closer voicing for it.

Sid Jacobs. Here's a link.

http://www.amazon.com/Bill-Evans-Gui...5111494&sr=8-4

[mr. beaumont]

that's it--excellent book, less for trying to learn note for note arrangements and more for just picking an invisible brain that arranged these tunes, but excellent.

[hot ford coupe]

A close interval was what I thought made the sound. Thanks.

[Jazzaluk]

I've had the opportunity to see Ed Bickert play live about a dozen or so times and I was always surprised how conventional his chord forms appeared. How he steps in and out of the progression is another story.

He actually didn't seem to use allot of pianistic closed voicings (alla Johnny Smith). He appeared to use mostly standard drop two type voicings and used closed voicings sparingly when the voice leading dictated. For that reason, I think his closed voicings really stuck out because of how he flowed into them and then resolved them.

From my experimentation, the voicings he used are not as key to his sound as the way he creates chord phrases that move from inside the chord (consonant harmony) to the chord extensions and upper partials and back again. Also, all of his chord phrases have very interesting rhythmic content and the tension in the rhythm always resolves perfectly with the chord. I am certain the rhythmic phrasing is strongly influenced by big bands.

Also, I've noticed that most of the melody notes in his chord melodies are very diatonic. The lion share of the chord alterations and extensions seem to manifest as inner lines within the chord (unlike Joe Pass who places many altered ton in the melody.

I think the best way to try and get an "Ed Bickert" vibe is to cop some of his turnaround chord phrases and study how the melody flows and how the rhythm resolves with the chords.

I went to a workshop hosted by Lorne Lofsky and asked him if he knew any "Ed" secrets. He laughed and said that Ed had too many secrets. He said that he knows so many tunes and melodies that he is able to force phrases of one tune over another at will to get almost infinite results.... The Ed Bickert mystery lives on.

Just some thoughts from a true fan.

[seagullc]

Thanks a lot for the tips guys. I definately need to work on this stuff a lot - I find thinking so much during comping is very detrimental as one really needs to carry the rhythm so I will need a lot of practice.

[mr. beaumont]

He actually didn't seem to use allot of pianistic closed voicings (alla Johnny Smith). He appeared to use mostly standard drop two type voicings and used closed voicings sparingly when the voice leading dictated. For that reason, I think his closed voicings really stuck out because of how he flowed into them and then resolved them.
.

that's a good point.

i've transcribed a lot of ed, and he does use a lot of standard voicings too--but the ones that really stand out (when his guitar almost sounds more like an electric piano!) are the closed voicings.

for kicks, an ed bickert ii V I ( in Eb, dig the major second interval in the V)

x x 3 3 4 4

x x 6 5 3 3

x x 5 5 6 6

[randalljazz]

hmmm...that is a very typical set of voicings for me. any of you old-timers (or research-minded youngsters) have any idea when these kinds of chords crept into the common vocabulary?

some piano players credit bill evans with similar piano style. d'ya s'pose m. bickert was among the first to apply this to the guitar?

[Jazzaluk]

Yes these are very standard type voicings. I believe Mr B's point was to show how Ed might throw a closed voicing in the mix to add some sparkle. I think this is a good example but it is difficult to hear the application without the rhythmic element.

I certainly don't think Ed Bickert was among the first to apply these voicings on the guitar. Examples can be found among countless guitar players who use good voice leading in their playing. So the voicing question with respect to Ed is a bit of a red herring. I guess my point is that the voicings play an important but relatively small part in Ed's overall sound.

Perhaps a more interesting question is: "what makes Ed's sound so unique?".

I know that he spent allot of time listening to Stan Kenton in his early career.... I often listen to Kenton trying to hear any influence but I think Ed's later recordings go beyond. (or my ears might be letting me down )

Again, on the chord melody side, I find the rhythmic element of his playing to be the most fruitful study (once the voicings are somewhat approximated).

BTW .. Thanks Mr B.... I hope to respond with another example as soon as I get near a guitar.

[mr. beaumont]

I believe Mr B's point was to show how Ed might throw a closed voicing in the mix to add some sparkle. .

exactly. a lot of his stuff is like this-- not too many horrible stretches. it's the how, for ed, not so much the what...how he'd play those chords was pretty unique sounding.

i think ed's tone has a lot to do with it, and his pick/fingers style. people always say they can't beleive how much ed "sounds like an archtop" on his tele, but it's actually a very different sound--very soft, no "attack" whatsoever on the chords really, they just "bloom." it's one thing to approach the guitar pianistically harmonically, but another to approach it like a piano in attack and in rhythm--and that's what ed did a bit more than just about anybody before him.

[Bill C]

There's also the interaction with the bass player. I tried transcribing some of Ed's playing recently and it was really difficult to separate out Ed from the bass player. It seemed some of the time as if the bass was marking out the underlying harmony and Ed was colouring the harmony with (often) small voicings. But that's just my impression, not proven fact!

[mr. beaumont]

no, that's true.

when ed worked with don thompson, especially, who initially comes off as a rather "busy" bass player, a little transcription proves why it works so well--

ed's voicings are pretty small for the most part--lots of three note voicings. don will give ed a platform to work on, but they stay out of each others way nicely--the end result is that don's notes truly act as lower extensions of ed's upper voicings...sweet!

[Jazzaluk]

i think ed's tone has a lot to do with it, and his pick/fingers style. people always say they can't beleive how much ed "sounds like an archtop" on his tele, but it's actually a very different sound--very soft, no "attack" whatsoever on the chords really, they just "bloom." it's one thing to approach the guitar pianistically harmonically, but another to approach it like a piano in attack and in rhythm--and that's what ed did a bit more than just about anybody before him.

During the Lorne Lofsky workshop I attended, Lorne said that he personally worked very hard to make sure all the notes in his chords sounded at the same volume. I believe this is also a key ingredient to Ed's lush sound.

[Jake Hanlon]

I just finished playing and having a drink/steak with Lorne.

I want to say, because it has to be said. Lorne is a motherfucker of a player, teacher and just a damn good human being.

People need to get hip to what he's bringing to the table and kids at York University are very lucky to get to work with him.

Lorne is the man, straight up. I've not been so impressed in a long time.

[vsaumarez]

Transcribing is going to help a lot. If you want an uncluttered shot at it by an expert, try the Jimmy Rainey CDs on Aebersold.